Is liberalism, at long last, dying? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
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#14746235
SolarCross wrote:You know I can play your moronic "logic" games as well:

At NO point did you deny or refute my assertion that "no one but a few fruitbats shares your irrational hatred for shopkeepers",


Then please allow me the opportunity to clarify that this accusation of yours is not actually an argument but instead is merely an insulting strawman. I originally decided not to call attention to it because it implies a certain immaturity.

Please note that I do not call you or your ideological colleagues "fruitbats" nor do I reduce their nuanced and rational views to "irrational hatred for" anyone.

My criticisms of capitalism are based on the idea that capiatlists, like everyone else, operate in their own self-interest.

THEREFORE you agree and concede by default that this assertion is CORRECT in every detail, that you DO hate shopkeepers and that hatred IS irrational.


I firmly believe that your strawman is irrational, yes. And since I do not support any irrational hatred of shopkeepers, it does not matter to me that it is irrational.

FURTHERMORE it logically follows that since by your own tacit admission you are in the habit of making your irrational hatreds the focus of your beliefs that your comments and arguments are about as credible and worthy of serious consideration as some poor sad mental patient who witlessly claims to be the second coming of Napoleon despite all evidence to the contrary. THUS you are not worth engaging in any way.

You have my pity but I can not waste my time on you so I will engage the other posters instead.


Please engage oher posters and ignore my posts from now on. Thank you.

Now, back to the topic:

Capitalism as a global system is also exacerbating or causing problems such as the loss of jobs to cheaper overseas manufacturing facilities. The probelm with this and e other problems I mentioned is that the solutions to these problems (in this case, a deliberate choice towards local economies) are not present in capitalism nor are they logically consistent with capitalism. If buying local tomatoes makes less money for the rich, why should they shift their economic weight in that direction?
#14746256
Liberalism is not dying. most people don't even have a clue what 'Liberal' means any more, and make up their own definitions.

Modern American liberalism is the dominant version of liberalism in the United States. It is characterized by social liberalism,and combines ideas of civil liberty and equality with support for social justice and a mixed economy.[1] The term "modern liberalism" in this article refers only to the United States. In a global context, this philosophy is usually referred to as social liberalism.
#14746265
The good news is that liberalism can be cured.

Requires a dose of medicine consisting of common sense, hard work, and patriotism, with perhaps a few other ingredients mixed in, tailored to that of the individual who is suffering from the brain disorder called liberalism.
#14746279
Pants-of-dog wrote:If that were the case, then the silver mines exploited by Spanish colonialissts would have been in Spain, and not Potosi. It would also mean that England and France are wealthier in natiral resources than Canada, the former colony.

Since this is not the case, we ar forced to concede that some countries may have been colonised because of their wealth.

In any large scale enterprise there will be multiple motivations, but if your point is that human beings are selfish, bigoted and capricious, I don't deny it. My point is that in your beloved Marxist theocratic dictatorship paradises like Cuba, the forces of selfishness, bigotry and capriciousness are magnified and fed by positive feedback loops, rather than being restrained.

We live in mixed economy democracies, surely the worst system except for all the rest.
#14749567
One Degree wrote:I believe these figures are very misleading. I think they represent a disillusionment with corrupt government.
People don't want to do away with democracy, they think it has already been done away with.


Pretty much this. Especially in America, where our knowledge of basic civics is atrocious enough that most people don't know this country isn't really a democracy, and never has been. But especially since the 80's, this country has been a plutocracy, with nothing but a pretense of democracy. If I believed our government was actually a democracy, I would believe it to be pretty worthless and not necessary too.
#14762052
Been reading some of these replies, and I am a little confused. Firstly, as much as I hate what I consider to be liberalism, liberalism has nothing to do with democracy. In fact, I would go as far to say that liberalism is quite the opposite.

Here lies the problem, what exactly is liberalism, and why do NORMAL people hate it so much. My definition of a proper and really annoying liberal is Owen Jones. He is petrified of upsetting anyone from a minority group, but has no problem at all upsetting the 98% of people in this country who are totally opposed to his views. Regrettably I have a son who shares all his opinions (but don't tell anyone). Liberals are bloody hypocrites. They all love Muslims, and want as many of them as possible to come and live over here, but at the same time they hate everything Islam stands for. They all go on about freedom of speech, but call everyone names who don't agree with them. Another thing about liberals, try and find me one that lives in an ethnic area, because you won't. They are all upper working/middle class, who obtained their ridiculous views from the lala land we more commonly refer to as university.

What really amazes me is that although these people represent such a small % of the population, for years they have got their way all the time. Well, perhaps things are changing, and the electorate all over the western world are letting their respective governments know that they have had enough.

Phew, that's better !!
#14762061
The graph below uses the exact same data, but it plots the average scores rather than the percentages who place themselves at the top end of the scale (see my earlier tweeted version here).

This indicates that the loss of "faith" in democracy is principally occurring in the Anglosphere rather than in other developed nations. Given the fact that the Anglosphere was the birthplace of liberal democracy, this is interesting.
#14762079
This thread points out one thing in spades. Most people in the US do not understand the question. Perhaps not in the same way as others do.

What is interesting to me is that we have the DOW at its highest ever, unemployment almost nil and people unhappy as hell. Clearly the underlying issue is the disparity in wealth. Too much concentrated in the hands of too few. This will be the tipping point. And it is certainly not going to get better.

We are facing the very real possibility of the death of work as we know it in the next century. As a matter of fact, work as I knew it as a child, has already mostly died. Education is chasing its tail trying to find relevance and the once-envied American worker no longer master of his own castle. (Welcome to metaphors-r-us)

I believe these figures are very misleading. I think they represent a disillusionment with corrupt government.
People don't want to do away with democracy, they think it has already been done away with.


I don't think this is true. Look at the last election. It has the powers that be reeling. Nevertheless, I think people really do feel trapped. I am deeply concerned about three things.

1. There seems to be no movement to validate work as good and valuable. It is treated like candy. If you have it don't share.

2. The death of privacy. This, to me, is the biggest issue not being faced today. The insidious grasp for control of our lives by those who peddle data is truly disturbing. More disturbing is that many younger people (and some older for that matter) really do not even understand the concept. We have companies marketing an individual's deepest secrets and nobody seems to care.

3. The loss of local and states rights. In America in particular there is the loss of a sense that any politics matters except national politics. There is no move to get younger people involved in politics. I mean involved. Not informed. When states rights finally die (and they mostly have for all intent and purpose) the electorate will have finally been divided and conquered.
#14762096
1. There seems to be no movement to validate work as good and valuable. It is treated like candy. If you have it don't share.


Work is essential for good mental health. It is not punishment to require people receiving government money to perform some service. It is good for them and the community. It does not have to be full time, but just something to make them feel worthwhile.
2. The death of privacy. This, to me, is the biggest issue not being faced today. The insidious grasp for control of our lives by those who peddle data is truly disturbing. More disturbing is that many younger people (and some older for that matter) really do not even understand the concept. We have companies marketing an individual's deepest secrets and nobody seems to care.


Our governments have been known to sell this information to private businesses also. At least I am aware of states selling mailing lists. I don't know what else if anything they sell.
3. The loss of local and states rights. In America in particular there is the loss of a sense that any politics matters except national politics. There is no move to get younger people involved in politics. I mean involved. Not informed. When states rights finally die (and they mostly have for all intent and purpose) the electorate will have finally been divided and conquered.

Absolutely. The most self absorbed student I ever had was of minimal intelligence and became Mayor of our city. I could not believe it, but no one else was running and he was a radio personality.
#14762310
Spoiler: show
http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/Philosophers/Nietzsche/Truth_and_Lie_in_an_Extra-Moral_Sense.htm
What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.

http://rickroderick.org/202-nietzsche-on-truth-and-lie-1991/
That’s taken to be one of Nietzsche’s outrageous statements about truth, that its metaphoric, it’s a sum of human relations, deployed in many fields of force, in short; mutually agreed upon fictions, which after long use seem obligatory to a people. And this… I take it to be one of Nietzsche’s stronger remarks about truth. And I think that we can make that clear with the history of our own country.

There are certain things that after long use that have become obligatory for us to believe are true. I have heard, and I have heard it ad nauseam, and until ah, well, ad nauseam. Let me say it in my West Texas way; until I want to puke, I have heard it. That the United States is a democracy. Because after long use, after herd like obedience to this word, we have come to believe it. The most dangerous thing, in some ways, that threatens our democracy is the belief of the overwhelming majority of our citizens that perhaps in some sense we do have one. If we questioned deeply what a democracy is, you know, a government in which the power really does come from a people or whatever. If we question these worn out metaphors, and looked behind… in other words, try to look for their origins in power and who deploys them, it might become interesting to see that this is an illusion about which we have long since forgotten that it is one.

The power of Nietzsche’s genealogy is to look at how important words to us; like truth, good, evil, and in the case I just used, democracy. Not in order to destroy these words forever, or to destroy their deployment, but in order to point out how they become worn out after long use. And certainly, compared to the vibrancy of the word democracy, you know, its earlier – as he said – earlier when the word was used in the dawning of the bourgeois revolutions, when it was used with such sensuous power, with such effect, you know, with little town meetings and public spheres, people fighting things out… vigorous like that… at least as we idealise it, perhaps that was an illusion too. But compared to that, our current democracy does seem – to borrow the metaphor – to be like a coin without a face. A metaphor that is worn out and lost its power.


If there was a substance to liberal ideals, it was when it was fresh and new, energy needed to establish itself, but it has become worn out like a faceless coin. Which I suppose is exactly the conclusion you come to in saying it's zombified and isn't organically connected to the people. Because over time, such a association was chip away at and we're left with a hollow husk that is only the thinnest appearance of what it was. I suppose part of it is also a case that the most dangerous ideology is one's own ideology, because people can see the inconsistencies and cracks based on what it says it does/aims for and what it is in practice.
http://rickroderick.org/105-hegel-and-modern-life-1990/
Real movements for Democracy are oddly enough most threatening in nominal democracies. That’s a principle of Hegelian discourse. In other words, if you live by an ideology, the most dangerous ideology to you is your own, because someone may expect you to do what you say. So, in that sense Communist ideology as many of you know was never a real threat in the United States, right. Very few Communists got elected to Senate and so on. It’s just not really popular.

And once that's noticed, that disillusionment happens, one is no longer legitimized by their ideology and people seek new meanings. Particularly if they feel crushed under such conditions, which gives them cause to feel that something should change and to question why it isn't changing for the better.
It's like a relationship where one's in love, one can be swayed purely by emotions to look past the flaws, but once the relationship isn't living up to its expectations one then becomes mighty critical and really questions if they want the relationship.
This isn't inherently a bad thing I don't think, it won't be pleasant but it opens up possibilities, some good, some bad, depending on where you're standing ^_^
Or on the other hand its just cause for concern because it means people don't feel like they have the power to change anything because they experience life as atomized individuals and they simply resign themselves to such sort of authoritarian rule. Which they in a sense already experience as there can be no significant challenge to capitalist rule. But even in such terrible circumstances, there's always potential for change, one could seek to agitate and 'wake' people up and make them feel life rather than numb it, harness their anger to certain goals. It would seem that many already do this, but not to the self interest of many in even the short term sense.
#14762321
It would seem that many already do this, but not to the self interest of many in even the short term sense.


As long as people have the internet and beer money, the vast majority will see no reason to do anything but complain. We have been bought. Our own disillusionment is the biggest obstacle. You know how difficult it will be to convince other people they need to do something. They will just take up your time telling you why your ideas are impossible. Hopefully Trump will give the momentum to get us out of our lethargy.
#14762678
I retired at 48, officially, and am happy as a clam. You don't need "work" for good mental health. Absolute tripe! :lol:
#15014730
Putin calls liberalism ‘obsolete’, Tusk offers strong rebuttal

EU President Donald Tusk on Friday (28 June) lashed out at his Russian counterpart in unusually undiplomatic language, saying he “strongly disagreed” with Vladimir Putin when he said liberalism was “obsolete.”

In an interview with the Financial Times, the Kremlin strongman said the “liberal idea” was now “in conflict” with what people around the world want.



“(Liberals) cannot simply dictate anything to anyone just like they have been attempting to do over the recent decades,” he told the newspaper, as populist movements gather support across Europe and in the US.

Putin criticised German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to allow more than one million refugees into Germany as a “cardinal mistake” and praised US President Donald Trump for his efforts to stop the flow of migrants from Mexico.

“This liberal idea presupposes that nothing needs to be done. That migrants can kill, plunder and rape with impunity because their rights as migrants have to be protected,” he said.

“The liberal idea has become obsolete. It has come into conflict with the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population.”

The Russian president concluded in the interview that liberal ideology had “outlived its purpose”.

Tusk, in Osaka for the G20 gathering of the world’s leading economies, took Putin to task for the comments.

“I have to say that I strongly disagree with the main argument that liberalism is obsolete,” the EU President said.

“Whoever claims that liberal democracy is obsolete also claims that freedoms are obsolete, that the rule of law is obsolete and that human rights are obsolete,” he added.

These are “essential and vibrant values” for Europeans, said Tusk.

“What I find really obsolete are authoritarianism, personality cults, the rule of oligarchs, even if sometimes they may seem effective,” said Tusk.

The feisty comments fitted the tone of this year’s G20 meeting in Osaka where leaders are expected to clash over trade, foreign policy and climate change.

US President Donald Trump already attacked friend and foe alike on domestic soil before flying to Osaka but appeared to strike a more conciliatory tone upon arrival, predicting a “very successful day.”
#15014737
:eh: Are you telling me I cannot make a comment about a Dictator, like Putin? Talk about trying to shut people up... :roll:

I guess you and your fascist buddies are just as bad, or worse, since I wasn't trying to shut anyone up. I was making a legitimate comment, Comrade Zionist Nationalist. :knife: Good job leaping to Putin's defense, like a good fascist.

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