[Mike12]

[Potemkin]

[Drlee]

So you agree that they are yelling threats and insults in the direction of the children and in the same.room as the children.

Is this appropriate?

@Drlee

What do you think, since you seem to be agreeing with BS?

It is not my preferred way of protesting this thing. My preferred way is to have public meetings, announce what the library intends to do and fight it out among the adults. In this case, knowing that what they were doing would be extremely controversial, the folks decided to go ahead without community input. So they reap what they sew.

For me this is about "who fucked up first". I am getting very tired of folks on the left taking highly contentious decisions, knowing and indeed hoping these decisions would outrage some people, and expecting those people to play nicely.

And I will go a step further. If I was speaking to a library leadership group I would ask them these questions:

1. Is this program worth the bad will it will garner for the library in the future? Libraries are members of the community and should at least consider the opinions of the main players.

2. Is this the hill you want to die on? What agenda is served? Does this do the greater good for the library? I would ask the leadership if a minuscule number of happy drag queens is worth what could, in the current political climate, prove to be a stunt that would endanger funding from both private and public sources. A stunt that could indeed threaten the future of children's programs and even the existence of the library.

3. Then we would have the discussion that should have been had with the community. What is our point? Don't give me any shit about "inclusiveness". Drag queens are more than welcome at the library in or out of costume. Yes drag queens are performers much like other performers. But there is a sexual overlay to their performances that, in my opinion, may not be appropriate for very young children. I sympathize with the parent who wants to send their five year old to the library for after school activities, without having to face a discussion that should probably not be had at that age. I think it would be just fine for a parent to not permit their young child to watch RuPaul's Drag Race because they feel it is not age appropriate. Why should they have to worry about this at the library?

No POD. Again this is not a simple black and white matter about what is "OK" for one to "be". It is about judgement in leadership. And the library fucked the pooch this time and paid a heavy price for it. I would fire the librarian.

[Unthinking Majority]

Totally agree with you @BlutoSays . There is a limit. Exposing children to sexual fantasies that they cannot understand it wrong to start with.

Somehow, those on the left(ish) in the US have been convinced that we must accept everything as normal and that the way that we show we are doing that is to impose these things on children.

I have absolutely no problem with citizens who disagree with these experiments expressing their displeasure through protest.

Political correctness is SOMETIMES used to stifle political discourse. I think there is no doubt about that. In fact it almost always is. It is not about manners. Political speech is (sadly sometimes) rarely mannerly.

I have no issue whatsoever with men who dress in drag.

But there's a difference between a trans person and a drag queen. One has their gender not match their biological sex. The other is expressing themselves sexual the opposite gender through fantasy. I don't think explaining drag queens to kids is appropriate. Other than "sometimes men like to dress up as women for fun". I wouldn't go out of my way to expose kids to drag or drag queens though though.

Trans people is different, they're going to see a trans person eventually, might as well explain it.

[BlutoSays]

So you agree that they are yelling threats and insults in the direction of the children and in the same.room as the children.

Is this appropriate?

@Drlee

What do you think, since you seem to be agreeing with BS?

Frankly, I don't agree with anything you say on this forum and your wordsmithing is not working.

I'll further say, if you leftist freaks keep up the BS, you're going to see a lot more than just yelling in future news reporting.

Take your woke fucking rainbow BS and pack it up your ass and leave kids alone.

[Rancid]

I've had the conversations around trans, drags, etc. with my son. You just handle it as the questions come in. Not a big deal.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is not my preferred way of protesting this thing.

But you still think this is legitimate, I see.

This seems to suggest that you think it is fine to expose children to violence, threats of violence and bigotry.

Please explain why you think exposing children to this kind of stuff at such a young age is appropriate, thanks.

My preferred way is to have public meetings, announce what the library intends to do and fight it out among the adults. In this case, knowing that what they were doing would be extremely controversial, the folks decided to go ahead without community input. So they reap what they sew.

You mean “sow”. It is a farming metaphor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowing

And please explain how “the folks decided to go ahead without community input”, focusing specifically on how they could have organised time in a library without doing so.

For me this is about "who fucked up first". I am getting very tired of folks on the left taking highly contentious decisions, knowing and indeed hoping these decisions would outrage some people, and expecting those people to play nicely.

The only reason it is a highly contentious decision is because of homophobia and transphobia.

If “the left” (i.e. LGBTQ+ people, I guess) is "who f***ed up first", then please note that the only thing they did was challenge bigotry.

And I will go a step further. If I was speaking to a library leadership group I would ask them these questions:

1. Is this program worth the bad will it will garner for the library in the future? Libraries are members of the community and should at least consider the opinions of the main players.

2. Is this the hill you want to die on? What agenda is served? Does this do the greater good for the library? I would ask the leadership if a minuscule number of happy drag queens is worth what could, in the current political climate, prove to be a stunt that would endanger funding from both private and public sources. A stunt that could indeed threaten the future of children's programs and even the existence of the library.

3. Then we would have the discussion that should have been had with the community. What is our point? Don't give me any shit about "inclusiveness". Drag queens are more than welcome at the library in or out of costume. Yes drag queens are performers much like other performers. But there is a sexual overlay to their performances that, in my opinion, may not be appropriate for very young children. I sympathize with the parent who wants to send their five year old to the library for after school activities, without having to face a discussion that should probably not be had at that age. I think it would be just fine for a parent to not permit their young child to watch RuPaul's Drag Race because they feel it is not age appropriate. Why should they have to worry about this at the library?

And I would ask why you think these questions are important or why they deserve to be addressed.

No POD. Again this is not a simple black and white matter about what is "OK" for one to "be". It is about judgement in leadership. And the library fucked the pooch this time and paid a heavy price for it. I would fire the librarian.

So you would fire one of the people who was targeted with threats and bigotry because they did not choose to censor the library activities to appease the feelings of some bigots who may not even be part of the community.

I disagree. I think even drag queens have rights and should be treated as humans. I do not require people to adhere to special conditions in order to exercise rights.

—————-

@BlutoSays

So you have absolutely no argument.

I accept your concession that you are withdrawing from debate with me.

[Drlee]

@Pants-of-dog

You can try to re-frame this any way you like. You asked me no questions that I did not adequately explain in my post.

You may think that it is OK to use government money to forward a political or controversial social agenda. I do not. You may believe it is the role of government employees to indoctrinate young children in the agenda of the employee's own choosing but I do not.

Feel free to tell us if there are any limits to the amount of government money that can be use to forward a particular social or political agenda before the people who were taxed for that money are at least consulted.

[Rancid]

I feel like this culture war shit everyone is engaging in is a massive distraction.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog

You can try to re-frame this any way you like. You asked me no questions that I did not adequately explain in my post.

You may think that it is OK to use government money to forward a political or controversial social agenda. I do not. You may believe it is the role of government employees to indoctrinate young children in the agenda of the employee's own choosing but I do not.

Feel free to tell us if there are any limits to the amount of government money that can be use to forward a particular social or political agenda before the people who were taxed for that money are at least consulted.

I see.

Since you are not explaining why it is justified to groom kids into violence and bigotry by exposing them to this violent, threatening, and bigoted behaviour, I will assume that you agree that this behaviour by the Proud Boys was unjustified.

Yes, I am perfectly happy with government funding going to story time for children. Reading to young children has known benefits.

Yes, I am perfectly happy with librarians teaching kids that all people are human and deserving of rights, not just those who conform to specific gender roles.

And if you want to argue that the local community was not consulted, prove it.

—————

I feel like this culture war shit everyone is engaging in is a massive distraction.

For people on the right it is, for LgBTq+ people dealing with death threats, it is (unfortunately) a bit more.

[Drlee]

Well I can see that yet again POD has decided not to address my points but to simply go ahead with his far left agenda, not caring whose rights he tramples in the meantime. And I see that, like virtually everyone on the far left, he is fine with grooming children to his fringe behaviors.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well I can see that yet again POD has decided not to address my points but to simply go ahead with his far left agenda, not caring whose rights he tramples in the meantime.
.

Whose rights were trampled?

Be specific.

And I see that, like virtually everyone on the far left, he is fine with grooming children to his fringe behaviors.

If you think we are supporting sex crimes against kids, please report us to the moderators and the police.

You are accusing me of supporting a serious crime, so it would make sense for you to do so.

If not, then this accusation is merely an ad ahiminem.

[Drlee]

So we see that POD believes that cross dressing is a sex crime? I don't.

If a man wants to fantasize about being a woman and dress accordingly that is fine with me. If he can monetize it by making it a source of mature entertainment that is also OK by me. If he uses it to forward a political or mature social agenda to children it is not OK with me.

[BlutoSays]

Around and around we go.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Drlee

To use the notification system, simply type"@" and then select whomever you wish to notify from the drop down menu that appears.

So we see that POD believes that cross dressing is a sex crime? I don't.

Yes, you do believe that. In fact, you have accused me and drag queens of grooming children for the purposes of sexual exploitation.

If you honestly think we are committing such a heinous crime, report us.

The fact that you have not done so suggests that you do not seriously believe we are grooming kids, and instead are merely repeating the current homophobic meme.

If a man wants to fantasize about being a woman and dress accordingly that is fine with me. If he can monetize it by making it a source of mature entertainment that is also OK by me. If he uses it to forward a political or mature social agenda to children it is not OK with me.

Since that dis not happen, your support for the Proud Boys seems illogical.

[Drlee]

Yes, you do believe that. In fact, you have accused me and drag queens of grooming children for the purposes of sexual exploitation.

Nonsense. You are making things up. Or delusional. Take your pick.

Since that dis not happen, your support for the Proud Boys seems illogical.

Nice try. Stupid but nice try. Please reference where I supported Proud Boys as an organization.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Drlee

To use the quotes system to notify someone that you are quoting them, tap the icon in the person's post in the upper right hand corner that looks like a speech balloon.

This will bring you to a new page on this website where you can reply to the person who wrote the post you are quoting.

The way you just did it does not notify me so instead I need to assume you are replying to me.

Having said that, if I erred in understanding your arguments, please clarify them.