Is Liberalism final fruit of ''Enlightenment' - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15150095
question taken out of context from another thread, that think is good debatable opinion for this subforum ...

annatar1914 wrote:@Political InterestLiberalism is the lasting and final fruit of the ''Enlightenment'' and the modern era we live in, it's assumptions are almost universal, but something is lost in the humanity of it's partisans I believe. And this contributes to the personal and social pathologies of this era in particular above others.


maybe I am reading the point too literal. but must say liberalism per-se is not the ultimate nuseffect even less lasting goal of the enlightenment era, but its meer consequence of the hype for overthrowing the prevalent ethics in the Christian Realm back then ...

yes it could be said that in face of western feudalism liberalism became game changer that lead to capitalism, but for social or individual freedom this wasnt case - if we consider that the enlightenment era was politically managed by freemasonry [1] and if so then for sure they just manipulated with Lady Liberty and liberalism while they overthrow royalism, after what they actually imposed again modern direct (revolutions) or indirect (usury) colonialism! for them in question is just freedom to worship illuminism, in same time imposed on small door to every "citizen" as "freedom" iconography! must say we are all blinded by their secularism although even in their idealism as paradigm of freedom there is no room for liberalism, if we know that their ideal is enlightened superhumanity, thus determinism instead free will! actually through the Free Will we can say that Christianity promotes true liberal idealism, something that as concept is present in freemasonry just on level of religious propaganda ...

... think that in any field applied, after the industrial revolution, liberalism is not supported by equality but mostly imposed by elitism, its just fable for the masses, even worst they are mislead to believe that they are free but actually from every aspect they are modern slaves that exists just to polish particular society ...

... yet when it comes to overcoming moral boundaries on any level, then indeed we could say liberalism as misused is excuse for exploitation occupation decadence mammonism etc. simply its negative freedom from aspect of existential equilibrium in our civilization!

So in my opinion there is no positive liberalism in true sense, even less as such to be ultimate fruit of the enlightenment era that became real standard for common good, this proposition on other hand opens another question > is it possible to be found economical balance between socialism and capitalism and that to lead to some form of eaudaimonian centrism!?
#15150135
@Odiseizam ;

That is a good question I believe. As for Liberalism itself, I do happen to think that it itself really is a kind of deception and a myth, but for all it's bad effects I do not think that it's original basic impulses are bad ones, in fact are a kind of secularization of the social workings of Christianity in the world.
#15150144
@annatar1914 yes secularism somehow made the Catholic Church unburdened from its heretical bull "unam sanctum" [1][1] thus the Church in west again became rather charitable than taxative, but this is maybe more direct reflex of freemasonry overtaking catholic royalism by secular republicanism, there wasnt any choice or consent, although by itself vatican was to blame through its liberal approach in theologian universities that instigated the reforms of scholastics what little by little opened door to humanism and renaissance, while enlightenment neopaganism just took that liberty to maximum, yet in the end what offered is meaningless and cruel individualism that ended in world wars, even all the progress that followed was misused for piling wealth for new group of aristocrats while masses even today live as slaves on different levels and in different ways, maybe only fruit that was result of that era is deception, just observe how Nikola Tesla was ridiculed and sabotaged en-masse, why if freedom was the goal many would helped him to succeed in his experimenting, but instead he was at best silenced etc. etc.
#15150145
Odiseizam wrote:
nuseffect


yes it could be said that in face of western feudalism liberalism became game changer that lead to capitalism




When I google nuseffect, nothing comes up. Is it a real word?

The Renaissance happened before the Enlightenment, you have it the wrong way round... The word liberal, as it means today, didn't even exist in the feudal era.

Liberal notions evolved out of the Enlightenment, and they didn't happen overnight. What happened in America was part of that evolution. If anything, the declining power of the Church made the Enlightenment possible, and that was an indirect result of capitalism. What was going on was the development of a secular world the church could not dominate.
#15150147
Odiseizam wrote:h unburdened from its heretical bull "unam sanctum" [1][1] thus the Church in west again became rather charitable than taxative, but this is maybe more direct reflex of freemasonry overtaking catholic royalism by secular republicanism, there wasnt any choice or consent, although by itself vatican was to blame through its liberal approach in theologian universities that instigated the reforms of scholastics what little by little opened door to humanism and renaissance, while enlightenment neopaganism just took that liberty to maximum, yet in the end what offered is meaningless and cruel individualism that ended in world wars, even all the progress that followed was misused for piling wealth for new group of aristocrats while masses even today live as slaves on different levels and in different ways, maybe only fruit that was result of that era is deception, just observe how Nikola Tesla was ridiculed and sabotaged en-masse, why if freedom was the goal many would helped him to succeed in his experimenting, but instead he was at best silenced etc. etc.


I like the gist of what you 're trying to say. I think if you made shorter sentences it would help to structure your communication better.

I had the same problem as in my language, extremely long sentences are normal.
#15150157
@late I dont see where renaissance is pointed after enlightenment!?

also, logically as enlightenment Liberty motto liberalism indeed existed in the feudal times, altho still not as political but philosophical term [1] man You are literal till bone :)

@noemon hm, I can make my point shorter but that would be suitable for propaganda posts, like this I am examining possible connections to and relations with other isms or circumstances, in this case of liberalism as nonenlightenment fruit :)
#15150180
noemon wrote:I do not mean that you should make your post shorter. I mean your sentences. You should make shorter sentences and use the full stop. More often.


aha, then thats a matter of style :) its my habit, and I try to be less annoying as possible, but habit is habit and takes time to overcome it ...
#15158392
Odiseizam wrote:
1) @late I dont see where renaissance is pointed after enlightenment!?

2) also, logically as enlightenment Liberty motto liberalism indeed existed in the feudal times, altho still not as political but philosophical term [1] man You are literal till bone :)



1) The question makes no sense. The Enlightenment started a couple centuries after the Renaissance...

2) This also makes no sense, as stated. It looks like you are trying to shove concepts from the Enlightenment into the Renaissance.

Lastly, the Enlightenment sought to make a better world to live in, which is the linchpin of the Modern era. You can call it liberal, without fear of contradiction, but it's so much more.
#15265804
@late

1. again I dont see where I've suggested that enlightenment era is before renaissance!, I am pointing due to scholasticism [1][1] emerged inertia that led to humanism [1][1]'[1][1]'[1][1] and through it emerged the enlightenment era (scholasticsm lead to humanism and that lead to the neopagan enlightenment), So renaissance is simply neopagan revival of the ancient pagan thought which was embraced as by the decadent elites so as by the esoterical alchemic elites, simply it brought the "liberty" for overthrowing of the Christian Ethos and opening door for the ancient art science and esotery on large door as trend that how time passed was more and more pushed top to bottom from the neopagan elites to the masses what culminated with the enlightenment era when "liberalism" became credo of all utopian revolutionaries that conspired to get rid of vatican as western authority as on political so as on cultural and spiritual level, practically the liberalism was inertia for removing Christian Theosis by anthropocentric apotheosis [2][2][2] that came to particular utopian n'w'o inertia, and now actually we are witnessing ultraliberal apex of that same inertia, but not coz the sake of the masses but coz the lusts of the neopagan euroatlantic elites for some totalitarian humanist "heaven'on'earth" and bionic&chimeric "superhumanity" what is defacto an fallacy of liberty for the masses but liberty of "some" elites to make from us what "they" want or need eg. the recent covert homo'silicone'hype for hackable animals instigated through "their" plandemix and by fear mandated m'rna biotech [3][3][3] simply eugenics on steroids and technocracy on kerosene, how else to be explained all "their" great'reset pushed without consent of the citizens but by plutocratic global agenda, debated only among the elites and imposed on all by propaganda means as there is no other alternative than that utopian transhumanist and technocratic agendas, which even seen by pure reductionist mindset are leading to totalitarianism [7] what about when we will examine the risks from Christian perspective [7] but yeah secularism so Christianity dont have any right to question "their" utopianism!, and are we here anyhow speaking about freedom of choice, is there even honest revelation what are those ultraglobalist agendas i.e. still we dont know for what could be misused the m'rna tech in context of ultrapanopticon and whether there are no risks that to happen!, simply on global scale mandated experimental biotech coz by fear fueled pandemics that how happened mids "their" great'reset and loudly anounced hackable'animals'hype by w'e'f megaphones its more than obvious we are all thrown in totalitarian skim, on which coz various reasons got onboard various elites [4][5]

2. shove concept how? by itself renaissance is already breaking free from the Christian Ethos i.e. liberty to adore the cult of the body [6] or to experiment with the pagan hermeticism [6][6][6] or to secure usury as normal doing business, and all that done covertly by trickery so would not provoke the masses on revolt eg. in case of usury was circumvented the chatolic christian norm for not gaining wealth by interest among the Christians simply by royals investing in khazarian lenders which in "their" name would make profit for "them" and noone would object on ecclesiological basis and practically thats how zionism came to prominence day after [6][6][6]

Lastly the enlightenment era was nothing else but removing Christianity from our lives and in its place pushing by trickery neopaganism!, we can argue that on many levels there was progress but when that progress is not coz the sake of the masses but coz the sake of the elites I dont see how that "revolution" brought better world, on contrary exploitation is boosted till ceiling selfishness till bone and hatrate till idolization how through black propaganda is stirred envy contempt and hate that sooner or later brings misanthrope vibe among states when eg. by nationalistic pride is stimulated hysteria against the others even eg. among neighbors that belong to same cultural political or religious realm!, what even by "their" commie socialist variant is also norm how is interpreted "their" hype for monocultural centralized utopian heaven'on'earth when is doable and preferable to lobotomize all even by force to follow that utopian spin, examples many from the experiments "they" released around the world!, in essence "their" philosophy "their" ideals "their" methods are wrong thus by default bringing wrong end results and side effects especially wrong when are pushed by exceptionalism how "their" knowhow is ultimately correct ~ name it from darwinism through eugenics till transhumanism, or from plutocracy through technocracy till utopian communism, or from epicureanism through hedonism till decadence, or from alchemic empiricism through naturalism till scientific totalitarianism, or from secularism through atheism till universalism (luciferianism), or from ultimate nationalism through ultimate globalism till ultimate one'world'government etc. etc. exceptionalism that emerged as result of "their" humanism and enlightenment era where it is "their" right and liberty by all means to lust for "their" expectational nightmares of liberty without responsibility (or guilt what can happen) when by coercion fear and trickery are trying to convince all to fall in "their" utopian oblivion, not that we dont need to strive for better tomorrow but to expect that by force that is achievable is by "good intentions" traced wide path till oblivion, but obviously for "them" that is normal way of progress i.e. ordo'ab'chao blueprint to reach "harmony" through chaos, thus ask Yourself which devotees are "they" or when trying to peddle all by trickery to follow who is "their" father-anathema-to-him i.e. who is the father-of-lies-anathema-to-him!, if "they" were honest would not escalate now inertia towards ww3 so would reach "their" utopia by rigging east west clash but will seek balance and negotiate peace, yet by "their" admission that was never case eg. with Ukraine where "they" were just buying time in the past decade so would arm Ukraine to be more lasting cannon fodder while "they" secure and compact "their" forces for nuclear ww3, simply the result of that enlightenment era is that exceptionalism which now coz "their" by plutocratic corruption hijacked "liberty" as "shadow elites" in hands of fallen-powers&principalities-anathema-to-them are trying to throw in hell&oblivon as many Souls as "they" can!, thats why I am constantly pointing that most effective pushback and resistance by us as Christians is through Grace but how when our hearths are constantly poluted by "their" liberal trends for hedonism mammonism and egoism when on one or another way coz the Christian Ethos is suspended on all levels we are losing ourselves Grace thus when get Inchurched barely capable to restore our health what about to help our community or even less to chase the evil from this World!?

Sorry I didnt found time to respond in time, also saw Your response too late thus postponed this reply, Hope You'll not see it now as some meditated or prepared debunking of Your stance, I've had reasons why evaporated from here [8] altho when see that in some thread can contribute with further info like now I'll share some thought, in this case simply its just my impression that altho it was seen as liberation that enlightenment inertia it brought only mass exploitation how ended up in capitalist or socialist mammonism and now what need to be upgraded in its fourth industrial revolution by paradox in even greater pharaonic rule above the wage slaves which coz as obsolete useless eaters will be not competitive with "their" bots or cyborgs as is already projected will need to end up in incinerator [9][9]'[9][9]'[9][9] coz greater good what when is not doable by consent normally it would be executed by some'malthusian'skim or eventually world war if "those" utopian elites as enlightenment era successors dont have enough free time for covert cleansing of seen by "them" "their" planet!, The Problem Is Whether plutocrats in usA embraced "their" neopagan transhumanist ideals as agenda [10][10]'[10][10] eg. dems as globalists [11][11][11] probably did yet the question is how gop is drown down in that skim, as we know how DonaldT was peddled for warpspeedin' obviously by trickery!, and we really need to debate whether we are not hostages of such neopagan'shadow'elits but as I can see there is almost no will by the academia to warn about the risks in "their" "great'reset" as if all are waiting what next will happen!, On other side Your stance is understandable from plain theoretical perspective but obviously Your are not taking in account all variables eg. I am pointing in this post thus looks to You that that liberty momentum brought somehow freedom hm to lose chance for Transcendence how all are tempted by systemic inertia to embrace hedonism mammonism or egoism as normal ideals in "their" current rat'race'system waiting to be upgraded on even wrong utopian level when from Christian perspective Salvation will be even more constrained by all those trials&errors that are part of "their" transhumanism!, and I'll understand if "they" gave liberatarian means so every community or state by referendums would chose what till where or when would follow from "their" bionic&genetic revolution, but all to be thrown in it by trickery that is wrong by any means how is obvious that there was particular neopagan deist blueprint since the enlightenment era for utopian heaven'on'earth but instigated by few shadow'elites above all Christians and Muslims!
#15265807
Odiseizam wrote:[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention]

1. again I dont see where I've suggested that enlightenment era is before renaissance!, I am pointing due to scholasticism [1][1] emerged inertia that led to humanism [1][1]'[1][1]'[1][1] and through it emerged the enlightenment era (scholasticsm lead to humanism and that lead to the neopagan enlightenment), So renaissance is simply neopagan revival of the ancient pagan thought which was embraced as by the decadent elites so as by the esoterical alchemic elites, simply it brought the "liberty" for overthrowing of the Christian Ethos and opening door for the ancient art science and esotery on large door as trend that how time passed was more and more pushed top to bottom from the neopagan elites to the masses what culminated with the enlightenment era when "liberalism" became credo of all utopian revolutionaries that conspired to get rid of vatican as western authority as on political so as on cultural and spiritual level, practically the liberalism was inertia for removing Christian Theosis by anthropocentric apotheosis [2][2][2] that came to particular utopian n'w'o inertia, and now actually we are witnessing ultraliberal apex of that same inertia, but not coz the sake of the masses but coz the lusts of the neopagan euroatlantic elites for some totalitarian humanist "heaven'on'earth" and bionic&chimeric "superhumanity" what is defacto an fallacy of liberty for the masses but liberty of "some" elites to make from us what "they" want or need eg. the recent covert homo'silicone'hype for hackable animals instigated through "their" plandemix and by fear mandated m'rna biotech [3][3][3] simply eugenics on steroids and technocracy on kerosene, how else to be explained all "their" great'reset pushed without consent of the citizens but by plutocratic global agenda, debated only among the elites and imposed on all by propaganda means as there is no other alternative than that utopian transhumanist and technocratic agendas, which even seen by pure reductionist mindset are leading to totalitarianism [7] what about when we will examine the risks from Christian perspective [7] but yeah secularism so Christianity dont have any right to question "their" utopianism!, and are we here anyhow speaking about freedom of choice, is there even honest revelation what are those ultraglobalist agendas i.e. still we dont know for what could be misused the m'rna tech in context of ultrapanopticon and whether there are no risks that to happen!, simply on global scale mandated experimental biotech coz by fear fueled pandemics that how happened mids "their" great'reset and loudly anounced hackable'animals'hype by w'e'f megaphones its more than obvious we are all thrown in totalitarian skim, on which coz various reasons got onboard various elites [4][5]

2. shove concept how? by itself renaissance is already breaking free from the Christian Ethos i.e. liberty to adore the cult of the body [6] or to experiment with the pagan hermeticism [6][6][6] or to secure usury as normal doing business, and all that done covertly by trickery so would not provoke the masses on revolt eg. in case of usury was circumvented the chatolic christian norm for not gaining wealth by interest among the Christians simply by royals investing in khazarian lenders which in "their" name would make profit for "them" and noone would object on ecclesiological basis and practically thats how zionism came to prominence day after [6][6][6]

Lastly the enlightenment era was nothing else but removing Christianity from our lives and in its place pushing by trickery neopaganism!, we can argue that on many levels there was progress but when that progress is not coz the sake of the masses but coz the sake of the elites I dont see how that "revolution" brought better world, on contrary exploitation is boosted till ceiling selfishness till bone and hatrate till idolization how through black propaganda is stirred envy contempt and hate that sooner or later brings misanthrope vibe among states when eg. by nationalistic pride is stimulated hysteria against the others even eg. among neighbors that belong to same cultural political or religious realm!, what even by "their" commie socialist variant is also norm how is interpreted "their" hype for monocultural centralized utopian heaven'on'earth when is doable and preferable to lobotomize all even by force to follow that utopian spin, examples many from the experiments "they" released around the world!, in essence "their" philosophy "their" ideals "their" methods are wrong thus by default bringing wrong end results and side effects especially wrong when are pushed by exceptionalism how "their" knowhow is ultimately correct ~ name it from darwinism through eugenics till transhumanism, or from plutocracy through technocracy till utopian communism, or from epicureanism through hedonism till decadence, or from alchemic empiricism through naturalism till scientific totalitarianism, or from secularism through atheism till universalism (luciferianism), or from ultimate nationalism through ultimate globalism till ultimate one'world'government etc. etc. exceptionalism that emerged as result of "their" humanism and enlightenment era where it is "their" right and liberty by all means to lust for "their" expectational nightmares of liberty without responsibility (or guilt what can happen) when by coercion fear and trickery are trying to convince all to fall in "their" utopian oblivion, not that we dont need to strive for better tomorrow but to expect that by force that is achievable is by "good intentions" traced wide path till oblivion, but obviously for "them" that is normal way of progress i.e. ordo'ab'chao blueprint to reach "harmony" through chaos, thus ask Yourself which devotees are "they" or when trying to peddle all by trickery to follow who is "their" father-anathema-to-him i.e. who is the father-of-lies-anathema-to-him!, if "they" were honest would not escalate now inertia towards ww3 so would reach "their" utopia by rigging east west clash but will seek balance and negotiate peace, yet by "their" admission that was never case eg. with Ukraine where "they" were just buying time in the past decade so would arm Ukraine to be more lasting cannon fodder while "they" secure and compact "their" forces for nuclear ww3, simply the result of that enlightenment era is that exceptionalism which now coz "their" by plutocratic corruption hijacked "liberty" as "shadow elites" in hands of fallen-powers&principalities-anathema-to-them are trying to throw in hell&oblivon as many Souls as "they" can!, thats why I am constantly pointing that most effective pushback and resistance by us as Christians is through Grace but how when our hearths are constantly poluted by "their" liberal trends for hedonism mammonism and egoism when on one or another way coz the Christian Ethos is suspended on all levels we are losing ourselves Grace thus when get Inchurched barely capable to restore our health what about to help our community or even less to chase the evil from this World!?

Sorry I didnt found time to respond in time, also saw Your response too late thus postponed this reply, Hope You'll not see it now as some meditated or prepared debunking of Your stance, I've had reasons why evaporated from here [8] altho when see that in some thread can contribute with further info like now I'll share some thought, in this case simply its just my impression that altho it was seen as liberation that enlightenment inertia it brought only mass exploitation how ended up in capitalist or socialist mammonism and now what need to be upgraded in its fourth industrial revolution by paradox in even greater pharaonic rule above the wage slaves which coz as obsolete useless eaters will be not competitive with "their" bots or cyborgs as is already projected will need to end up in incinerator [9][9]'[9][9]'[9][9] coz greater good what when is not doable by consent normally it would be executed by some'malthusian'skim or eventually world war if "those" utopian elites as enlightenment era successors dont have enough free time for covert cleansing of seen by "them" "their" planet!, The Problem Is Whether plutocrats in usA embraced "their" neopagan transhumanist ideals as agenda [10][10]'[10][10] eg. dems as globalists [11][11][11] probably did yet the question is how gop is drown down in that skim, as we know how DonaldT was peddled for warpspeedin' obviously by trickery!, and we really need to debate whether we are not hostages of such neopagan'shadow'elits but as I can see there is almost no will by the academia to warn about the risks in "their" "great'reset" as if all are waiting what next will happen!, On other side Your stance is understandable from plain theoretical perspective but obviously Your are not taking in account all variables eg. I am pointing in this post thus looks to You that that liberty momentum brought somehow freedom hm to lose chance for Transcendence how all are tempted by systemic inertia to embrace hedonism mammonism or egoism as normal ideals in "their" current rat'race'system waiting to be upgraded on even wrong utopian level when from Christian perspective Salvation will be even more constrained by all those trials&errors that are part of "their" transhumanism!, and I'll understand if "they" gave liberatarian means so every community or state by referendums would chose what till where or when would follow from "their" bionic&genetic revolution, but all to be thrown in it by trickery that is wrong by any means how is obvious that there was particular neopagan deist blueprint since the enlightenment era for utopian heaven'on'earth but instigated by few shadow'elites above all Christians and Muslims!



Does the phrase 'load of crap' ring a bell?
#15265827
@late

tell me did You checked at least one of the proposed end links in the footnotes, or just coz lack of arguments tilting in troll mode!?, but looks like either You are thoroughly brainwashed thus dont accept different stance, or in question is spammer infiltrator that if cant derail the topic in bin at least to bin it so would look like made knowledgeable claim, I really not sure how to see You!, anyway by rude chitchat You are not contributing on PoFo on contrary one line posts are even forbidden, yet You are indeed left to loom around with such style, hm wonder why!?

Indeed if this civilization collapse it would be coz ultra exceptionalism and extra propaganda even on eforums where unlike on the soc.nets at least here should be kept normal clime of debate, yet as someone wants to suspend that possibility!, hek one of the prime nus(side)effects of the enlightenment era to be reached "liberty" by agitprop trickery so as most as possible Christians would kneel on "their" anthropocentric apotheosis!, anyway "their" trick will eventually trick "them" the question is how many will embrace "their" utopian'lady'liberty lucifer-anathema-to-him!, what is seen as norm for "their" n'w'o [1][1] and Yes its Your Free Will not to get informed or walking with eyes'wide'shut nor to accept different roddy piper dioptry so would wake up from "their" brainwashing, but if You do keep Your indifference high be at least aware that You are gambling with Your Salvation and like that risk to end up in painful eternity!, what You can simply check it if start comparing "their" monstrous eugenic hype that emerged from the enlightenment era (which got its lebensborn exaltation in mengelian ww2 death camps) with the current wide experiment of bionic&genetic revolution mids "their" last plandemix (which obviously burn to see ww3 circumstances so would burst in full extent) in both cases superhumanity hype due to "their" humanist deism i.e. luciferianism [2][2][2] practically the enlightenment was strive of neopagans to attain liberty to worship lucifer-anathema-to-him and it would had have been "their" free will to do so, but to impose that fallacy even on Christians by trickery that is too much eg. when earlier among protestants was implanted dominionist heresy so would be pushed towards chasing heaven'on'earth, or eventually now all are pushed through universalism to be kneeled at "their" false prophet [3][3] i.e. through ecumenical hype all Christians to end in "their" cauldron, an ecu inertia due to some wrong theological screws in vatican which as such are again leading in universalism [4][5] so yeah what would come from mixing Christianity with "their" luciferianism!?, simply it cant be reached heaven'on'earth on this World coz its the place of our exile where we can reach Salvation and Theosis through Jesus Christ and not some apotheosis by some fallen earthly neopagan or pagan reasoning!
#15265840
Odiseizam wrote:
@late

tell me did You checked at least one of the proposed end links in the footnotes, or just coz lack of arguments tilting in troll mode!?, but looks like either You are thoroughly brainwashed thus dont accept different stance, or in question is spammer infiltrator that if cant derail the topic in bin at least to bin it so would look like made knowledgeable claim, I really not sure how to see You!, anyway by rude chitchat You are not contributing on PoFo on contrary one line posts are even forbidden, yet You are indeed left to loom around with such style, hm wonder why!?

Indeed if this civilization collapse it would be coz ultra exceptionalism and extra propaganda even on eforums where unlike on the soc.nets at least here should be kept normal clime of debate, yet as someone wants to suspend that possibility!, hek one of the prime nus(side)effects of the enlightenment era to be reached "liberty" by agitprop trickery so as most as possible Christians would kneel on "their" anthropocentric apotheosis!, anyway "their" trick will eventually trick "them" the question is how many will embrace "their" utopian'lady'liberty lucifer-anathema-to-him!, what is seen as norm for "their" n'w'o [1][1] and Yes its Your Free Will not to get informed or walking with eyes'wide'shut nor to accept different roddy piper dioptry so would wake up from "their" brainwashing, but if You do keep Your indifference high be at least aware that You are gambling with Your Salvation and like that risk to end up in painful eternity!, what You can simply check it if start comparing "their" monstrous eugenic hype that emerged from the enlightenment era (which got its lebensborn exaltation in mengelian ww2 death camps) with the current wide experiment of bionic&genetic revolution mids "their" last plandemix (which obviously burn to see ww3 circumstances so would burst in full extent) in both cases superhumanity hype due to "their" humanist deism i.e. luciferianism [2][2][2] practically the enlightenment was strive of neopagans to attain liberty to worship lucifer-anathema-to-him and it would had have been "their" free will to do so, but to impose that fallacy even on Christians by trickery that is too much eg. when earlier among protestants was implanted dominionist heresy so would be pushed towards chasing heaven'on'earth, or eventually now all are pushed through universalism to be kneeled at "their" false prophet [3][3] i.e. through ecumenical hype all Christians to end in "their" cauldron, an ecu inertia due to some wrong theological screws in vatican which as such are again leading in universalism [4][5] so yeah what would come from mixing Christianity with "their" luciferianism!?, simply it cant be reached heaven'on'earth on this World coz its the place of our exile where we can reach Salvation and Theosis through Jesus Christ and not some apotheosis by some fallen earthly neopagan or pagan reasoning!



Economics is one of the primary drivers of history.

What you are doing is one part history, one part fantasy, one part religion, a handful of ice cubes, toss into a blender and voila, you have an intoxicating concoction with only a hallucinatory connection to reality..
#15265856
Odiseizam wrote:
conspired to get rid of vatican as western authority as on political so as on cultural and spiritual level,




The new ideals of humanism, although more secular in some aspects, developed against a Christian backdrop, especially in the Northern Renaissance. Much, if not most, of the new art was commissioned by or in dedication to the Church.[22] However, the Renaissance had a profound effect on contemporary theology, particularly in the way people perceived the relationship between man and God.[22] Many of the period's foremost theologians were followers of the humanist method, including Erasmus, Zwingli, Thomas More, Martin Luther, and John Calvin.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Religion



---


Odiseizam wrote:
mandated m'rna biotech [3][3][3] simply eugenics on steroids and technocracy on kerosene



Odiseizam wrote:
but yeah secularism so Christianity dont have any right to question "their" utopianism!,



'Secularism' would be the *civil society* standard, within a bourgeois-nation-state 'governance' context.


Generalizations-Characterizations

Spoiler: show
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*Within* this conceivable-secularism there are in fact 'camps', just as in politics in general, and even generic-sounding 'atheism' has its *wings* -- maybe, offhand, from leftist secular-humanism, to right-wing *monetarist*-type, economic-nationalist, *deflationary* political-economy.

The utopianism that you 'question' is the rationalist and/or sociobiologist camp, I would estimate, and they had their 15 minutes of fame around 2005:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#New_Atheism


Also:


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show
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Odiseizam wrote:
dems as globalists



TLDR right here.


Odiseizam wrote:
"their" great'reset



*Or*, plutocratic pontifications.
#15265865
Odiseizam wrote:



late wrote:
Economics is one of the primary drivers of history.

What you are doing is one part history, one part fantasy, one part religion, a handful of ice cubes, toss into a blender and voila, you have an intoxicating concoction with only a hallucinatory connection to reality..



Culture shock.

Civilizational on-the-outs / sour-grapes, in regards to (ancient-Roman) paganism and 'neo-paganism', or the Enlightenment. Maybe the poles will flip again in *another* 1,000 years, back to monotheism. (grin)
#15265909
late wrote:Economics is one of the primary drivers of history.

What you are doing is one part history, one part fantasy, one part religion, a handful of ice cubes, toss into a blender and voila, you have an intoxicating concoction with only a hallucinatory connection to reality..


Its Your take, even earlier You've express it [1] but dont get the animosity greeting!, still would respond coz its good opportunity to examine Your stance in this thread too i.e. narrowing the enlightenment era to economics is just reductionists explanation for predominantly driven by ideals masses, eg. saying they were earlier manipulated towards revolution solely coz "someones" greed its at best just partial side of the story, its logical that by mammonism is secured the inertia for shift from royalism to republicanism or from theism to secularism (so would be removed from the scene Christian rulers and Christianity) simply "they" couldnt risks as alchemic humanist ideologs to introduce instantly "their" deism but little by little masses were brainwashed at least to accept apotheosis as normal thing like the era'of'reason when Christianity would be removed as ideal from the hearths of the people, and now when that idolization of reductionist reasoning brought this world to ecological biological and cultural collapse whats next upgrading the brains with a.i. with hope if all are borgged down this world will reach equilibrium!, the problem is that that selfdelusion is imposed by trickery through democracy to what imediately pops up the question why!?, how so we are constantly reminded how west is champion of democracy and liberty while in same time by trickery pushing various agendas!?, isnt the global'warming'hype due to ch4 yet is sold as due to co2 coz like that it could be secured easier submission and obedience by the masses!?, how to explain the faulty&deadly biotech jabs as cure from s'c'2 while per'se is word for panopticon skim!?, arent all "their" agendas such as by trickery pushed agendas behind the scenes so would look like democracy is stil in place and masses would follow with wide'eyes'shut!?, till "they" reach "their" utopian n'w'o and superhumanity!

I really dont see how came to conclusion that I am somehow intentionally blending intoxicating hallucinations, whats the point of chitchat labeling, isnt Your approach blackening agtiprop slip for more smooth gaslighting, as if like that You've debunked something of my logic!, I am giving the big picture, like mosaic of various events and players (as behind so as on the scenes of history), what think is logical approach if we know "their" compartmentalization and factionalism after the enlightenment era as neopagan elites!, so yes it looks maybe confusing at first glance, but once You'll examine the proposed end links it will become clear to You that I am not just randomly throwing assumptions but trying to find explanation how "they" are tied in one knot the 1. alchemic rosicrucian new'atlantis'utopianism to 2. republicanism and freemasonry (and "their" exceptional freedom or death ideal) also 3. how all of them are secured by teuton bankers and nobility 4. and finally arent "they" pushing that utopian lusts through the current geopolitics!, yeah suppose its not easy all this to be understood clearly, especially not while we believe we are living in democracy, altho we are all aware that the same is driven by exceptional'power'principle of particular unipolar euroatlantic globalism i.e. egalite for "whom", for "them" to be above all!?, >>> Also saying everything is circumstantial appearance coz economic reasons in World that is driven per'se by the spiritual realm is lets say shallow understanding for the reality and history, <<< altho for atheist reductionism it looks like we are all just particles driven by plain circumstance what in geopolitics would be economic lusts eg. as greed for resources, and yes we can say mammonism is extra potent motor for evil inertia, yet egoism is far above it coz eventually ideals are those who keep the will in some power'elite and per'se ultimate ego brings ultimate ideals on top when for those exist some earlier in this case euroatlantic utopian blueprints - then whats the odds that banksters will not follow it but invent some other - actually "they" improvise and either from fear or uncertainty even dont want to again and again are thrown back to that enlightenment utopian matrix, >>> yet again if we recognize the metaphysical reality its not hard to grasp how so the majority of euroatlantic power factions are interwoven and driven by same spirit towards apotheosis as rejection of Christ!, and we can act stupidly ignorant for this fact but that will not change "their" mind and inertia towards world'war'ordoabchao spin till n'w'o that I find compelling explanation for the current global events in the world (great'reset - plandemix - global polarization - covert bionic&genetic revolution - war propaganda - mindbogling war fueling in Ukraine by nazism but also obviously chabad zionist puppet of commander) yeah all that is just simple economic hype!, are You kidding me!?

... hm its like saying that now the ukrainian crisis is solely coz euroatlantic lust fpr russian resources i.e. to be weaken collapse and then partitioned Russia coz easier exploitation, what in my opinion is not at all prime motive altho reason plus many to be kept on hook how that will be logical outcome, still in my opinion foremost the fear from multipolar world is prime issue coz like that is not secured "their" n'w'o and "their" superhumanity i.e. how to expect in Orthodox Christian Russia to be suspended religion or brought to level of universalism, or how to impose there kgbt deviance as normal, or how to hijack the system to follow ultraliberal corrupting till submission to the euroatlantic exceptionalism and expansionism, hm hm hm the problem is how now western elites to sell this to the western masses as logical democratic or coz whatever reason normal response "they" as euroatlantic determinists to push for escalation till ww3 without any room for dialog what about negotiation (as AngelaM said that such thing was not ever on the table but just buying time to weaponize Ukraine so when needed would be thrown in fire and through it to be stirred nato compaction and preparedness for east west clash!), now tell me again that economics was the prime driver for "them" as euroatlantic determinists, yes on first site there are such variables like stalling the russian progress or removing russian influence on eU [1][1]-[1][1] but through such motives to be executed till ww3 risks such spin cmon!, it looks too good to be true that coz 50 times smaller budget of Russia to be instigated such exceptional nodeal policy by ea-determinists solely coz suppression of the gas pipelines primary so Russia would not get stronger, simply cant be explained the current escalating geopolitical tension solely due to such variable i.e. ballooning nuclear ww3 risks coz russian gas penetration is indeed ludicrus, tho its logical coz particular utopian "great'reset" agenda [1][1] thus its obvious that economy is not the prime variable in "their" euroatlantic'power'equation, hek are "they" anyhow at risks if Russia get a bit wealthier knowing how the current global economy is in "their" pocket and act how "they" are pleased so would pile as much as "they" want quadrillions of financial wealth!?, hek "they" can print money till "they" want through "their" rigged FED imf BIS wbc COL octopus [2][2][2] even "they" see us as owned or with less privileges than "their" bank'corp'cartel which coz larger investor has larger share of policy making [3][3] and actually exactly like that "they" exercise "their" shadow'power mids the current western plutocracy i.e. primary by lobbying mechanism in usA and eU is secured execution of the utopian euroatlantic world'dominion'agendas of "some" shadow'elite'factions of euroatlantic determinists!, and maybe looks that the same lust for ultimate power is resting on economic excuses but defacto in question is lust for control above all as an exceptional given right to "them" by deistic selfdelusion, thus the prime reason is "their" utopian'neopagan'nightmare now activated through "their" great'reset as march towards one'world'government ~ as "they" had have pushed earlier towards the same pax'universalis ideal since 1. pax'britanica (ww1) then 2. pax'teutonica (ww2) now pax'universalis through 1.2. pax'americana!, in all cases rushing for monocultural universal neoplatonic heave'on'earth what as I've earlier pointed from aspect of Christianity is utmost risk Christians to reach in it till level of ultimate apostasy as kneeled to anathemago, what to be more factual from aspect of walking on eggs we were Warned for that risk through The Revelation, now whats the odds that we are speaking only for economic and not spiritual driving force behind the scenes!?, maybe for You this sounds ridiculous but I am not so exceptional to say that Your stance is garbage, its Yours and mine mine Dont See Why need to offend each other so would make some claim!?, chill out bro sometime in future maybe You'll wake up to my by fractal logic derived arguments, tho for that You'll need to start examining the proposed at least the underlined end links in my posts, I mean when You've took the time to get debating in the thread whats the point by labeling to unlist them as garbage Please disprove any particular I dont claim mine stance should be taken as utmost correct simply I am nor expert nor authority but have as all the right to think freely even more posting on eforums coz debate so would not claim any exceptionalism how mine stance should be swallowed without examination ... still I respect Your will as guest thus will just say thanks for Your Time and keep Your spear in articulate debate instead exceptional mocking, Cheers ...
#15265914
@ckaihatsu we can examine secularism as useful "civil society" hype just through the need of enlightened neopagans to remove Christianity as dominant moral pivot in the western masses, also we can grasp further that its "their" hype how "naturalism" as humanism became academic pivot, which now is chasing progress even when by corrupt science and policies eg. how ecoethics is circumvented coz the need of exploitation of resources by wrong means, and/or how bioethics is circumvented so would be covertly introduced the recent by emergency authorization bionic&genetic revolution in "their" plandemix and to it coerced by mandates m'rna jabs!

Thus through secularism we were peddled noone to be able to object from moral theological ground against such skims, resting out hope only to obviously corrupt regulators from peer'reviewers till fda, on top all that juiced by vast propaganda and even wide censoring!, as if was not case for experimental biotech, the same goes also for fracked methane [1][1] which altho is obvious that is the prime reason for global warming the same is intentionally overseen while is pushed co2 mantra as culprit, where are now to examine what about to stop that inertia "their" u.n. climate boards!?, simply "their" liberalism works only for "them" and "their" utopian'neopagan'agendas!
#15265921
Odiseizam wrote:
... hm its like saying that now the ukrainian crisis is solely coz euroatlantic lust fpr russian resources i.e. to be weaken collapse and then partitioned Russia coz easier exploitation,



Wolff says it's Russia only to get through to China:


2023: A Coming Economic Crisis? Who Will Pay? With Richard Wolff




Odiseizam wrote:
Also saying everything is circumstantial appearance coz economic reasons in World that is driven per'se by the spiritual realm is lets say shallow understanding for the reality and history,


Odiseizam wrote:
yeah all that is just simple economic hype!, are You kidding me!?



Doesn't the 'economic realm' *reflect* what people's / society's needs *are*, though, however imprecisely -- ?

Here's my own, 'tiered' approach -- *not reductionist*.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
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Odiseizam wrote:
"they" as euroatlantic determinists to push for escalation till ww3 without any room for dialog what about negotiation



Agreed.
#15265924
Odiseizam wrote:
narrowing the enlightenment era to economics is just a reductionistic explanation for predominantly driven by ideals masses



I did not do a reductionist explanation. That's part of what made it possible, nothing more.

Let's look at the scientists in the Renaissance . They had rich patrons. That money came from international trade. Economics made that possible.

One of the many things wrong with what you've written is that "ideals masses"makes no sense whatsoever...

You seem to be trying to do intellectual history, but it's clear you haven't studied it rigorously.
#15265935
@late Tell me what do You think isnt reductionism to say people live coz they eat!?, to that I'll say they live coz have Life, but what is Life by Your terms that is solely circumstancional naturalistic emergence, on what I'll say Life is Gift of Our Almighty Lord ... now when You'll compare mine and Yours stance in context of the enlightenment era defacto You are suggesting simplistic reflex as reason while I am pointing to higher skim behind the scenes which yet as motto of "their" neopagan revolution is clear as "liberty" on what if we ask from what defacto from the Christian Ethos, actually that very same momentum shaped all the rest processes from culture through economy till power of rule i.e. all became by neopagan reasoning expanded till extremes like postenlightenment idols of hedonism mammonism and egoism!, and if for You mammonism is prime motor thats Your take, yet for me prime one is egoism (by exceptional pride pushed inertia to pax'universalis) an ultraliberal neopagan idealism as driving force in the western realm predominantly occupied by Christians, where through the same is imposed particular wrong utopian skims either by left socialist or by right capitalist means!, simply we are confronted by isms which see the man as god and that by itself brings such exceptionalism sooner or later we all to become hostages of some wrongly imposed wrong ideals!, and if we weigh out whether ideal or fears are greater driving force I'll say both are bursting in the heads of "those" elites!, i.e. while "they" having no secure means to keep alive "their" power indefinitely through the current "liberal" order forced "themselves" to flush even greater totalitarian great'reset so would not be challenged anyhow tomorrow "their" exceptionalism and risk to lose "their" role as shadow'elites of neopagan or atheist euroatlantic factions&clans!, yes economy is also potent tool to realize that skim but also is medicine or war too i.e. "they" can fool us by various ways till reach "own" technocracy where again "they" will be solely rulers!, hm maybe then officially as pharaohs instead like now hidden'puppet'masters in the current plutocratic show! Practically "they" are fooled by "their" wrong science but also coz "their" wrong current system of exponential economic growth through debt by no concerns about the ecological footprint which as system was enacted so "they" would stay in control from behind the scenes!. what in essence speeded up "their" enlightenment utopianism, hm I wonder whether we were not intentionally pushed towards such crescendo!?

@ckaihatsu so we would not go extra offtopic in the thread I'll point all my digressions are meant to point that "liberty" is not the final fruit of the enlightenment era, at least not for the masses as Christians but for the band of neopagan elites and "their" stooges, the rest as in feudalism were on one or another way suppressed if dont follow "their" matrix, thus however we would explain the current events defacto if there was not particular ultraelitism (what actually is norm in platonism and consequently in neoplatonism which is basis for republicanism) and if we were indeed all equal experiencing the true right of choice and/or having right to question the politicians then we would had have seen win-win approach on all levels, but on contrary we are witnessing modern colonialism exploitation and bullying if not extermination depending when how is sold with success the "enemy" the "terrorist" or the "tyrant" narrative!, defacto we are living in tyranny of the 1% of wealthiest elites "which" as humanistically shaped even dont want to will follow neopagan deist exceptionalism that as "philosopher kings" are above all the rest useless eaters, for "them" we are almost like resources in video game where "they" need to score so would satisfy the clanish'power'lust on every next level till utopia - when "they" hope will get enlightened - yeah as we can see now by homo'sillicone'means!, idiots no zoon'utopians, but to play "their" game upon all as if it is given freely to "them" that right even mids democracy hm that for sure sooner or later will lead to destruction of this civilization, surely there are such among "them" that blinded by the false pride say if we fall all will be pulled down with us, or surely there are such that think that even nowadays ordo'ab'chao myth will pass and good will come out from it, but as we can see there are such that think that metaverse is our next natural evolutionary exaltation, mindfucks I'll conclude how "they" are trying to sell "their" own selfdelusion to all like fog for gold!

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