[Tainari88]

Hi @Rich here is your thread.

We can be quite thorough eh? And go through the history of each of the political parties on the island and their histories. It might enlighten you about why all three parties agree on the present status of the island. Is not working anymore.

Let us start with Alexandra Lugaro. With her MVC party. She is an atheist by the way. She backs legalizing marijuana. She is a divorced mother of one child and a lawyer and businesswoman. She wants independence. Her party got almost 14% of the vote. The two independence parties combined (the other one is the PIP on the island) and they also jumped to more or less 14%. They predict growth now for the independence option in a steady way after a long drought in that voting trend. Now independence is growing. Why? Lol. Because the statehooders are getting kicked in the ass by the Republican party Rich. The Republicans do not want Puerto Rican statehood. But in the past George Bush Sr, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford and so on all wanted it for Puerto Ricans as you can see in this video. Did they really? Or was it all bullshit smokescreens?

We can explore every single party on the island and figure out the complexities of colonial rule from afar and why the HUGE benefits are not that beneficial my main man in England @Rich.

Start by refuting Alexandra Lugaro.

Don't send the wrong message. Fuck isn't the USA supposed to let the people of Puerto Rico decide on their own without worrying about sending the wrong message? What are they going to do? Make sure the right message is sent. If they keep up their BULLSHIT two-faced crap ignoring what is wrong over there on the island?

They are going to make it very hard to avoid violence. You either do something about irresponsible shit colonialism or you do not.

Start with refuting Alexandra, because the other ones who are in the independence parties who are more militant are much harder than she is. Go ahead.

[Tainari88]

Come on @Rich keep going here about the benefits to all this colonialism. Just leave your land, culture, language and family life. That is all you need to do. Give it up. Give up what is the most meaningful to your existence. You can finally get a job and pay your bills. What a great trade eh?

Meanwhile in Jamaica, the UK needed labor to rebuild the UK after being bombed by the Third Reich. So after WWII you have a bunch of Jamaicans relocating to the UK because they needed some labor eh? What a great deal. I would say Rich, you pack your bags, sell all your possessions and go to a place you don't know well and relocate. Let the cryptocurrency bros take over your area of the UK. And give up your entire life for a paycheck. Problems solved my main man in England.

What is your opinion Rich. Do not be shy.

[Tainari88]

Well how nice all these people flooding the UK. Gee, yet they ask no pity from us....lol. Shit how patronizing is that shit Rich? You tell me?

[Rich]

I'll try and get back to your Jamaican point, but this seemed related and more urgent. In an off-topic forum you posted this

No, the Santo Domingo folks are not first in Texas folks. That would be the Native American tribes of Texas. Who are they?

Native American tribes in Texas
From sources across the web
Comanche
Apache
Atakapa
Biloxi people
Cherokee
Kiowa
Adai
Akokisa
Aranama
Caddo
Choctaw
Coahuiltecan
Hainai
Kadohadacho
Kickapoo
Nacogdoche
Nechaui
Alabama people
Chickasaw
Coushatta
Deadose
Isleta del Sur
Nabedache
Nabiti
Show less

Then came the Spanish and the Tejanos too. So the Santo Domingo crowd did not get there until way later. They are newcomers. Rancid is disqualified as the first people in Texas.

Rancid responded

The point I'm making is that even the first people of these lands are not considered Americans by the MAGA dipshits.

And then Potemkin posted this.

Potemkin I'm disappointed in you, posting this idiotic leftie meme. The meme is meant to show how smart lefties were, when in fact it displays their ignorance. The Apache were not in Texas in 1492. Neither were the Spanish. The Apache were just as much settler imperialist invaders to Texas as the Spanish and the Americans. The major conflict with Spanish when it did get going over 200 years after Columbus sighted land in 1492, was driven by the fact that the Apache were retreating from the invading Comanche.

[Tainari88]

@Rich it seems your argument is going to be about nitpicking tiny details about specific incidents in history. What is your point?

Let me tell you a little story.

If you go back far far back in human history? Every corner of this globe we reside in was some kind of unoccupied land. Humans have been traversing the Earth and all its varied environments for as long as there has been hominids in this world. So what is your point? That because these savage Native Americans were warring for territory among themselves, and the Africans were trading among themselves slaves, and the Germans were mistreated in the past and the Scottish were invaded by the English and the Irish were invaded by the English....and the list is long. That it justified predatory and genocidal and deliberate actions on the part of the US government and the US army? Really?

You know it is curious what one unearths when one is running around digging in excavations in the ground in the Southwestern USA. How people lived in Chaco Canyon New Mexico around the 1300s. How they eeked out a meager existence in a tough desert with very little rain.

Struggle is the name of the game in this world Rich. People have to struggle to feed themselves, get water, do agriculture, get their crops harvested, weave their cloth, and build their houses. I did some work in Mesa Verde. A big site for the early Indigenous groups in the Southwest of the USA. Like the Anazasi.

Here is a video on them.

You still have to work on Alexandra Lugaro. How are Puerto Ricans who want to live in their land and in their own culture supposed to solve their economic issues with a government and an economy that does not benefit them at all but only benefits the outside interests who have no real investment and stake in Puerto Rican society? How does that work eh? Explain it to me. When the UK decided that they wanted to terminate their relationship with the EU because they felt it was too costly to stay for them in terms of having to cope with foreigners working in their towns and cities and having to pay into the EU? But you want to deny the right of the Puerto Ricans to decide that the colonial relationship and the one-way street US Congress relationship is not working for us and had not worked from the beginning?

Colonial relationships are not really two-way mutually beneficial relationships that create enough stability, jobs, and efficient governance to keep it going indefinitely. It collapses precisely because it is unstable, does not create enough high-paying jobs, and is inefficient in the extreme.

I have a lot of great material to back every claim I can make about Puerto Rico. Are you willing to go the whole length of it with me Rich? Or are you going to drag Potemkin into it over a Liberal Leftist meme?

Meanwhile, think about human beings and how they develop relationships with the land they have occupied for a very long time. Does it carry any legal rights and does it have any weight within the modern concepts of city-states and nation-states?

I am being pressured by my husband to get dressed and go to a town called Chicxulub or something. I got to pick up some packages a friend sent in this little town.

The Chicxulub crater is an impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico. Its center is offshore, but the crater is named after the onshore community of Chicxulub Pueblo. It was formed slightly over 66 million years ago when a large asteroid, about ten kilometers in diameter, struck Earth. Wikipedia
Area: 25,450 km²
Age: 66.043 ± 0.043 Ma; Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary
Coordinates: 21°24′0″N 89°31′0″W / 21.40000°N 89.51667°W
Diameter: 200 km (120 mi)

So, be patient with me. I will come back later in the afternoon it is about 919am. So I need to go. Be back later my main man in England. Do not fight much with Potemkin over a meme. It is about Puerto Rican politics this thread. Focus on that eh?

BTW, has the UK invested a lot in Jamaican infrastructure to the point that Jamaica has the same standard of living as the rest of the UK? According to another thread I have done on UK poverty it looks like that outside of London the councils in the UK are in bankruptcy and in dismal shape. Like I said before why haven't those upper-class Lords and so on invested heavily in the English towns and cities that are in their realm? You would think all those years of extraction setups from the Third World nations taken over by their predatory imperialism justifications would have reaped some benefits for the average blokes making their 24 thousand pounds sterling a year or so. Right? No?

[Tainari88]

@Rich I am back from my trip.

Well, let us continue. The next pro-independence for Puerto Rico candidate for Governor in PR is called Juan Dalmau Ramirez. He is currently a senator for the Puerto Rican Senate. He declared during the 2020 campaign that finally the two-party stranglehold of the PNP and the PPD was finally broken. We will go over the history of the Statehood party and the PPD party in this same thread. The PPD and the PNP were and are the two major parties on the island. The big change has been a wave of independence parties and the loss of voters of the other two major parties. They are shrinking over time. A very good thing. At the same time the US government has dedicated a lot of time and money to avoiding PR independence. The reasons over this situation I also have a lot of material. The FBI admitted openly that they used immoral and even illegal tactics and violence to suppress that option. The reason is that needed the island to remain a colony and that the Puerto Ricans to remain in the US citizenship column. That citizenship status is complex too Rich. We can go over that.

First Juan Dalmau Ramirez. Let me see if I can find something where he has some subtitles. That is another thing Rich. A huge percentage of Puerto Ricans do not speak English extremely well. Outside of San Juan about maybe 10% speak it well. My husband who was born and raised on the island had to study it from kindergarten throughout university level and still felt uncomfortable speaking it. Not used to it. Can the USA make exceptions in their senate and so on? With having every document they submit for a vote be in Spanish and English? Both? Many think the USA is a liberal multicultural paradise of constant translations and interpretations.

But most minority languages wind up dying off once they become a state. It happened in the past to Texas, New Mexico, California, etc. Lol. Assimilation. The Welsh still want to hang on to their native Welsh, and the Irish Gaelic is virtually goners and had to be revived. English took over. Linguistic imperialism. Just another hurdle on the road to a multicultural world. You know you love that liberal idea don't you Rich?

Well not to get sidetracked, let us deal with Juan Dalmau Ramirez and the PIP or Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño. There is a woman reporter called Bianca Graulau (pronounced Grow Low) that made an interesting little clip in English on the Independence option for Puerto Rico. It is interesting. Here she is:

@Potemkin, do you see how FAST that Puerto Rican Spanish is? Machine gun Spanish. Lol. Practice. Hee hee.

Rich, you can hit the subtitle configuration at the bottom of the screen and get the English translation.

Well, here is Graulau:

The original PIP party in PR was founded by this man:

Puerto Rican Independence Party
Political party

The Puerto Rican Independence Party is a social-democratic political party in Puerto Rico that campaigns for the independence of Puerto Rico from the United States. Those who follow the PIP ideology are usually called independentistas, pipiolos, or sometimes just pro-independence activists. Wikipedia
Founders: Gilberto Concepción de Gracia, Fernando Milán Suárez
Founded: October 20, 1946, Bayamón, Puerto Rico
Leadership: Rubén Berríos (President)
President: Rubén Berríos
Profiles

[Tainari88]

@Rich the results of the 2020 election. The statehooders got the lowest support since voting started being allowed in 1948. From 1898-1948 (50) years it was a military dictatorship appointed by Washington DC with no democratic votes from the local Puerto Ricans allowed. This is after defeating the Axis in Europe and Japan in the Pacific in WWII. Fighting for democracy and freedom. Many Puerto Rican men died in WWII fighting for the Allies. But no vote for us. because? Why? Lol.

Why does such a democratic-loving nation do that Rich? Can you explain why? Please explain it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puer ... l_election

Meanwhile the Puerto Ricans served in Europe defending the interests of the Allied forces. Like the UK. Lol. Yet...we are complaining about our HUGE BENEFITS. Benefits that were given to us in a very fair and equitable way. Right Rich?

Colon said about 60,000 Puerto Ricans were providing security among the Caribbean Islands or serving in Europe during World War II.

Taken from this link:

https://www.defense.gov/news/news-stori ... y-history/

Now let us consider this interesting stat. Puerto Rican independence in terms of votes has been at historic lows recently. Yet this lack election both pro independence parties like MVC and PIP together are nearly 28%. The PNP had grown for a long time. Now it is shrinking. Many people on the island are wondering why this is so?

The interesting reality Rich, is that young Puerto Ricans go to the US states, live there for a while, get jobs, and many then return and decide to do their own thing and are CHOOSING to stay in Puerto Rico. They chose Puerto Rican life over US life. If the US is so much better for the young people why go back to Puerto Rico? Most of the new voters are younger Puerto Ricans. If you ask them why they vote for independence when their parents or grandparents voted pro statehood? They say? The statehood party sucks. A lot of corruption, they can't get that goal accomplished, and why are we relying on the USA government? They do not give a shit about Puerto Rico. Why wait around for them to solve what is best for US? The Puerto Ricans?

Now, if you study other two party government gridlock problems in political governments that are representative democracies all around the world? Especially in Latin America? The third party growing means a big trend in new voters. Younger voters who do not want the same formula they find resolves almost nothing. Too much corruption and not enough dynamic changes that are needed.

I know it is hard for you to believe how could any Puerto Rican turn down living in the USA vs Puerto Rico? Lol. It is simple. The island is our home, we speak Spanish, we are Latin American, we have deep roots in the land. 60% and higher of the Puerto Ricans have Native Taino DNA. The first people in that island. The Spanish had said that the Indian people were extinct in terms of presence. But genetically they are not Rich. It was a lie. A lot of lies told. In order to say that Puerto Rican identity does not really exist.

Do you expect to visit the USA Rich and have most or all of the people speaking Spanish all the time and every single day? Yes or no? Then why is it so hard for so many to accept that people want to stay where they are comfortable in their own milieu?

Would you expect the death of an entire culture to be acceptable to you? Puerto Ricans are racial, and cultural mixtures as most of the islands of the Caribbean basin are Rich. Nothing pure about the islands.

I think we have talented people. And as such? We got a shot at running our own lives and our own government. That the US will allow that to happen without some violence and war and killing and lying and being total nightmares? I have my doubts.

They love war. Throw some bombs on us. Etc etc. Kill us and do it efficiently. I will not put that past them. But every nation trying to get control of their own land base had to confront somebody over here in the Americas. Whether it was the British. The French. The Spanish. The Netherlands. The Portuguese. Colonialism is something that is seen as just inevitable and so on. Is it? It seems many nations have pulled away from it and survived. Why not us?

After all? We got some rocket scientists....Puerto Ricans Rich.

We do.

I am only going to give you one I have met. Vanessa. She went to the University of Puerto Rico like I did. And she attended University of Colorado at Boulder. Like I did.

Different graduation dates. She is Puerto Rican. There are a lot of us Rich. If you invest in education heavily and you make it affordable for all to attend? You get great results. The Hedge Fund Wall Street crowd are closing and defunding everything. Why? That is another thread topic.

But here is Vanessa Aponte.

Vanessa Aponte Williams, Ph.D.
Chemical and Aerospace Engineer, Human Spaceflight Exploration Lead, Lockheed Martin Space

Vanessa Aponte Williams was born and raised in Lajas, Puerto Rico
Dr. Vanessa Aponte Williams is the Human Spaceflight Exploration Lead of Advanced Programs, Lockheed Martin Space. She has close to 20 years of experience in the Aerospace Industry, primarily devoted to human spaceflight and systems engineering. Prior to Lockheed Martin, she worked in the areas of Advanced Life Support, as well as Controls, Dynamics and Propulsion at NASA Kennedy, Dryden, and Johnson Space Centers. She joined Lockheed Martin as a Sr. Systems Engineer in 2006; one of her most notable roles held within the Orion Multi-purpose Crew Vehicle program, where she led the Cross-Cutting Integration Team in tackling high-visibility, short-turnaround challenges. After Orion, Vanessa also led the New Technology Insertion Board as well as oversaw the technical and programmatic scrutiny of critical U.S. spaceflight assets as Risk and Opportunity Manager within the Special Programs Line of Business. Outside her career at Lockheed Martin, Vanessa has had the distinction of being selected as a finalist and undergoing the Astronaut Selection Interview process at NASA Johnson Space Center twice (2009 & 2012). Throughout her career at Lockheed Martin, Vanessa has been intimately involved with leadership development, STEM and volunteerism. She is also a former member of Rocky Mountain Rescue Group. Vanessa was born and raised in Puerto Rico. She received a B.S. and M.S. in Chemical Engineering from UPR at Mayagüez and a Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from CU Boulder.[13]

We graduated thousands upon thousands of Puerto Rican engineers, doctors, and lawyers, and every single profession you can think of. The Puerto Rican government used to invest enormous amounts of its gains from casinos, and taxes and everything else into education. All of that is being destroyed. Do you have any idea why?

[Tainari88]

@Rich the statehood option:

According to Bianca Graulau it is about some old legal codes based on racism.

What is your opinion?

Judge Torruella a Puerto Rican judge that wrote a piece about it in this document analyzing the entire US Puerto Rico relationship.

https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content ... ruella.pdf

The statehooders are finding out when they challenge the legal codes the reason why the laws work against the resolution of the status question is about how the US acquired lands that were previously occupied by other groups of people. Those people whether they were Native Americans, Hawaiians, Guamanians (Chamorros) and other groups were not the same as US immigrants who were naturalized and had to take an oath and agree to be part of the US Constitution and the US system. The reality was that they never asked for becoming US citizens and it was imposed through an act of Congress because they needed control of the land and knew that they had the issue of previous ownership by many centuries and documented titles by many courts. So how to bypass that and take over without the consent of the ones living there? Through statute. Through granting citizenship through and Act of Congress not subject to needing consent by the group being taken over. So statutory citizenship is not naturalized citizenship or Constitutionally based citizenship.

It is a type of citizenship that can be revoked if the US Congress needs to get rid of it.

That is precisely why statehood can be voted on and even if the vast majority of Puerto Ricans vote for that status the US Congress keeps only NON BINDING referendum on it. If it is not binding it means the US Congress can ignore the Puerto Rican vote or plebiscite. Until further notice.

How long will they continue to do that? It is anyone's guess Rich.

What is interesting is if they do grant constitutionally guaranteed citizenship it will mean they will have to resolve the issues with all the other unincorporated territories problems with statutes like in Guam, US Virgin Islands, Solomon Islands and American Samoa, among others. How many more senators and congresspeople reps will that be? Shift the balance of power.

It will also require a change in laws, investment, and many other aspects of PR society. Many that remain controversial on the island to this very day. But keeping us in limbo is not a long term option.

I will predict that if they do not take action on solving this problem in the next four election cycles the majority are going to be votes for independence. And the majority of the new voters for that option will be coming from the statehooders. Who are tired of being ignored. Most of the Republicans do not want PR statehood. Not today. Why?

Lol. Statehood being for the Poor is not a motto the Republicans ever find attractive eh?

In the end....the only examples of what happens when islanders with similar status as ours ever try for a solution? it has not been statehood Rich. Palau voted for independence.

It got it. But the USA threatened to deny their ability to require removal of nuclear weapons from Palau. The Palauans negotiated.

It is interesting there are many scenarios on how to decolonize from the US government. The problem is doing it on favorable terms for both parties. Usually the USA wants more than what they should get from these tiny islands.

They are bullies and abusive in the extreme. It is not surprising. Not for me.

[Tainari88]

Well, the third option for Puerto Rico is the ELA. The Estado Libre Asociado. It was created in 1952 to take Puerto Rico off the colony list in the United Nations which was embarrassing the USA in NYC when it kept saying European nations had to let go of African colonies in the African continent. But, they were keeping colonies and being hypocrites.

Luis Muñoz Rivera, and Luis Muñoz Marín. Father and son.

For the biography on LMR this clip is the summary:

The vast majority of the information on LMR is in Spanish only. Unfortunately. But? You can switch on your translation options at the bottom of the youtube videos.

Also, I am adding some details.

I have discarded @Rich as being polite enough to come in here and comment. He does not do it. I have no idea he would bring up the subject and then not participate eh?

It is the height of being rude.

Lol.

But allá el. I will finish my thread on the topic.

I will later include smaller political parties and what has happened to them.

[Tainari88]

A good summary of territory rights:

Why does the US Congress avoid all of the granting of equal rights to these territories?

That will be the next posting.