[bach]

Added to this, while being president of a third world country, instead of fixing the great social problems Venezuela has, chooses to invest in the military, buying F-16's.

Well, what about the colombian government buying 50 tanks from the spanish government, shouldnt they be spending it on social programs too, now dont tell me they want tanks to fight the guerillas because everybody knows thats tactically stupid.

Chavez is the peoples president, just as the rich get it all when the oigarchs are in power now the poor get all the funds, of course he middle clase is divided to extremes and they suffer.

[Der Freiheitsucher]

Added to this, while being president of a third world country, instead of fixing the great social problems Venezuela has, chooses to invest in the military, buying F-16's.

Well, what about the colombian government buying 50 tanks from the spanish government, shouldnt they be spending it on social programs too, now dont tell me they want tanks to fight the guerillas because everybody knows thats tactically stupid.

I agree. I hate the Colombian government and despise that issue you just mentioned. Your point being what?

Chavez is the peoples president, just as the rich get it all when the oigarchs are in power now the poor get all the funds, of course he middle clase is divided to extremes and they suffer.

Again, what's your point?

[Terca]

So no one answered my question about whether Venezuela deserves its democracy or not. Do they or do they not have the right to choose their leader by majority vote?

[jaakko]

The demonstrations in favour of Chavez are truly tremendous and there's no way to downplay their significance. Last time the comprador bourgeoisie and CIA tried to overthrow Chavez it was the masses that ruined the coup which USA had already greeted as succesfull.

If anyone, it's the "opposition" that needs fraud in order to win the elections. They used all unconstitutional methods, now they try the "constitutional" way. So isn't opposition fraud attempts just expectable?

I too followed the news when the oil industry was "striking". Actually it wasn't a strike but a capitalist lock-out. There's a difference between having all the thousands workers striking and having the capitalists establish a lock-out with the support of the labour aristocrat / union bureaucrat cream layer. I happen to have read quite some about the Venezuelan oil industry. The tradeunion is a corporatist creature designed to serve the capitalists.

So Chavez isn't diplomatic? So he's not a good demagogue? Not enough obedient to US when sending oil to Cuba? We're dealing with something bigger here; the presence of US imperialism in Latin America and the resistance against it. In that context Chavez can be far from perfect and still receive the support of every genuine socialist, anti-imperialist, internationalist and patriot.

Chavez not democratic enough? Well no country can be democratic if its dependent. Logically we can't talk of democracy in Venezuela before we're talking of its independence.

I suppose the biggest prove against Chavez is the fact that all the old hard line Communists in Venezuela (Pompeyo, Teodoro) despise him. That will give food for thought for all you silly commie Chavez supporters.

Only "communists" I'm aware of opposing Chavez in Venezuela is the obscure party 'Bandera Roja'. They have appeared in opposition demonstrations. I've also heard they were behind some the incidents during the coup attempt where Chavez supporters were shot at from roof-tops. This, if anything, points at CIA connection/manipulation. It's nothing new especially in Latin America that CIA hijacks marginal ultra-leftist groupings for their own purposes. Bandera Roja deserves the guillotine.

[Terca]

Frankly, universal suffrage in countries where the vote matters presents a problem to our policymakers. A problem America has traditionally handled by removing leaders they don't like and installing dictatorships. Brutal dictatorships.

So here is the rub: we say we spread democracy, but we don't like democracy at all.

We say we went in to give Iraq a democracy, but we hate Chavez, the democratically elected leader of Venezuela.

John Kerry hates Chavez, too, for all you democrats looking for a better tomorrow and a less hypocritical foreign policy.

[Der Freiheitsucher]

Last time the comprador bourgeoisie and CIA tried to overthrow Chavez it was the masses that ruined the coup which USA had already greeted as succesfull.

That is not why the coup failed. That is your first assumption and your first error.

If anyone, it's the "opposition" that needs fraud in order to win the elections. They used all unconstitutional methods, now they try the "constitutional" way. So isn't opposition fraud attempts just expectable?

First part, wrong, second part correct. The opposition doesn't need any fraud to win the elections, it needs unity, you already saw that a recall referendum passed even after Chavez tried to trop the electorate council. I will agree with the second part, a coup was inconstitutional and therefore wrong. Are you now saying this justifies a "counter-fraud" by the government?

I too followed the news when the oil industry was "striking". Actually it wasn't a strike but a capitalist lock-out. There's a difference between having all the thousands workers striking and having the capitalists establish a lock-out with the support of the labour aristocrat / union bureaucrat cream layer.

Are you trying to call the entire oil union bureaucrats and or capitalists? If you are trying to say that there were not thousands of workers striking for the PDVZA incident, your news feed is wrong, for I was outside the bulding seeing as the workers striked. I saw it in the Venezuelan news, I saw the anti Chavez strikes done by workers.

I happen to have read quite some about the Venezuelan oil industry. The tradeunion is a corporatist creature designed to serve the capitalists.

Then my Finnish friend, I have no idea who writes those books. Again, it's easy just stigmatizing everyone as a capitalist so you can justify an attack on them, which is exactly what people are doing. The oil union wasn't knocked because it was burgeoise and bureacrat, but because of the strong foothold and power it had. I don't get it, they're trying to argue that he attacked the trade unionists because they were burgeoisie - yet he attacked them so he could privatize the enterprise?

So Chavez isn't diplomatic? So he's not a good demagogue? Not enough obedient to US when sending oil to Cuba? We're dealing with something bigger here; the presence of US imperialism in Latin America and the resistance against it.

Don't think Finnish, think South American third world-ish. We're not in a position to be challenging

In that context Chavez can be far from perfect and still receive the support of every genuine socialist, anti-imperialist, internationalist and patriot.

Clearly it's happening, what's your point?

Chavez not democratic enough? Well no country can be democratic if its dependent. Logically we can't talk of democracy in Venezuela before we're talking of its independence.

Venezuelas independence happened long ago. What do you mean?

I suppose the biggest prove against Chavez is the fact that all the old hard line Communists in Venezuela (Pompeyo, Teodoro) despise him. That will give food for thought for all you silly commie Chavez supporters.

Only "communists" I'm aware of opposing Chavez in Venezuela is the obscure party 'Bandera Roja'.

No no no no no, you are not getting the full picture of the Venezuelan domestic politics. If you want, PM me and I'll send you the information on the "communist" you don't believe exist, or are just not aware of their existance.

I can understand why you, Jaakko, would support Chavez on an ideological basis - but the man is far from being a hero.

[bach]

Well, modern democracies arent supposed to work like Venezuelas does, where the majority have the power, and the people have a choice in deciding if the president may stay in power. Just try that in any other country see what happens, most likely the govenment will call you terrorist and anarchist.

But it is interesting because in a sense now those who were in power feel how difficult it is to remove those in power, not that they should be in power anyway, "Los escualidos" should be in the private sector only, the goverment belongs to the people and it should only protect the powerless majority not the all mighty minority.

[brujo]

Great way to change our minds! If you don't want to say then why bother posting at all.

He has destroyed the economy of Venezuela with his pathetic populism. Going out to the street with bread and milk to give it to the lower classes doesn't fix anything, it's obsolete populism which contributes to his pathetic economy. Added to this, while being president of a third world country, instead of fixing the great social problems Venezuela has, chooses to invest in the military, buying F-16's. Sending a boat with petrol to Cuba may sound just great for the communist children here, but in the real world, it does nothing but create enemies and international problems over Venezuelan oil, one of its main (if not its main) industry.

.

I'd like to remind all the young dreamers who think CHavez is a hero to recall Peron and look at Argentina today. Sure, his wife went out and heard problems of the "commoners". [WHAT A HERO!]. in reality, this populism makes NO STRUCTURAL CHANGE IN SOCIETY. CHavez is stiffling innovation, business, freedom of speech and Venezuela's relations with other nations. Its funny to see a lot of foreigners fall for an image CHavez projects for the illiterate venezuelan masses.. HA!

Also, to the person who said that the CIA placed Pinochet in power... first, i'd like to thank you for your insight. It IS true that Chavez is nowhere near Pinochet. However, the CIA did NOT place Pinochet in power. Sure, the CIA did finance economic paralysis under Allende, they did try to get Allessandri reelected to then have Frei chosen by congress.. but.. THE CIA AND THE PRESIDENT FOUND OUT ABOUT PINOCHET's COUP DE ETAT ON THE SAME DAY IT HAPPENED. This is an historically known fact. I find it important to have facts straight in order to further opinions and truths.

ADDENDUM: if chavez is such a hero of the people, and has their support, why is he sacking the offices of the opposition, and why is he against a referendum.. something isn't making sense and it is not me...

the bright side is that we all want the best for venezuela

[Terca]

Great way to change our minds! If you don't want to say then why bother posting at all.

He has destroyed the economy of Venezuela with his pathetic populism. Going out to the street with bread and milk to give it to the lower classes doesn't fix anything, it's obsolete populism which contributes to his pathetic economy. Added to this, while being president of a third world country, instead of fixing the great social problems Venezuela has, chooses to invest in the military, buying F-16's. Sending a boat with petrol to Cuba may sound just great for the communist children here, but in the real world, it does nothing but create enemies and international problems over Venezuelan oil, one of its main (if not its main) industry.

.

I'd like to remind all the young dreamers who think CHavez is a hero to recall Peron and look at Argentina today. Sure, his wife went out and heard problems of the "commoners". [WHAT A HERO!]. in reality, this populism makes NO STRUCTURAL CHANGE IN SOCIETY. CHavez is stiffling innovation, business, freedom of speech and Venezuela's relations with other nations. Its funny to see a lot of foreigners fall for an image CHavez projects for the illiterate venezuelan masses.. HA!

Also, to the person who said that the CIA placed Pinochet in power... first, i'd like to thank you for your insight. It IS true that Chavez is nowhere near Pinochet. However, the CIA did NOT place Pinochet in power. Sure, the CIA did finance economic paralysis under Allende, they did try to get Allessandri reelected to then have Frei chosen by congress.. but.. THE CIA AND THE PRESIDENT FOUND OUT ABOUT PINOCHET's COUP DE ETAT ON THE SAME DAY IT HAPPENED. This is an historically known fact. I find it important to have facts straight in order to further opinions and truths.

ADDENDUM: if chavez is such a hero of the people, and has their support, why is he sacking the offices of the opposition, and why is he against a referendum.. something isn't making sense and it is not me...

the bright side is that we all want the best for venezuela

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/ ... .chile.ap/

Just three weeks before Allende was toppled in a September 11, 1973, coup led by Gen. Augusto Pinochet, U.S. officials had approved $1 million in covert aid to political parties and private organizations. Only $13,000 was actually spent before the coup, according a CIA memorandum.



http://www.socialconscience.com/articles/2002/chile.htm

Hinchey Report: CIA admits as little as possible, yet its still atrocious
"The report also disclosed a CIA payment to Gen. Manuel Contreras Sepulveda, head of the Chilean secret police, whom it knew to be involved in post-Allende human rights abuses. In 1993, Contreras was sentenced to prison for a rare act of foreign-sponsored terrorism on American soil — the 1976 car-bomb killing of a Chilean diplomat and an American associate on Embassy Row in Washington."
"The report also describes efforts to influence news media in Chile against Allende and to augment anti-leftist propaganda activities by the coup-maker who toppled and succeeded Allende, Augusto Pinochet."
"It spoke of CIA activities “including support for news media committed to creating a positive image for the military junta,” which is now accused of an array of abuses during Pinochet’s 17-year rule including more than 3,000 killings."
CIA Admits Involvement With Plotters and Assassins in Chile
By David Briscoe, The Associated Press, September 20, 2000
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/worl ... 00919.html


So yes, we did assist him, and without us he wouldn't have taken power. They can weasel and dress it up as much as they like, but not only did we help him take power, we also helped him kill the disenfranchised voters so he could keep it.

On to Argentina. Why are you blaming socialism/communism for that? The IMF gave them a plan, they followed it. And like Russia, they paid dearly for the flawed (deliberately flawed?) IMF scheme.

The IMF isn't populist. It also has a terrible track record, yet the G8 countries badger nations into following their schemes for debt repayment.

Often, as in Haiti, these debts were run up by US supported dictators, and yet the people, finally liberated, have to repay it! That's like making German Jews pay reparations for Hitler's misdeeds!