[Il Morto Che Parla]

RIP Hugo.

Judge a man by who hates him and who loves him.

He repeatedly had the support of the poor and excluded of Venezuela, and was hated by those who always held the wealth and power.

Nobody is perfect but I wonder how any British or American government would have responded to the destabilization campaigns against him.

Regarding whether he could have been poisoned, it's very strange that since 2010,Néstor Kirchner died (and many rumours say he had cancer which aggravated his attack), and Lugo, Chavez and Lula, all Latin America leftists, were diagnosed with cancer.

Many regimes, including the US, Russia, and the Latin America right wing, have used these kind of covert assasinations tactics against opponents (the former only against opponents abroad, as they permit democracy for their own people but not for others, and the latter two for opponents at home AND abroad).

Now there are viruses and chemicals which can induce certain cancers, this is known. We also know the CIA has agents in every country in the world and the most advanced technology known to man. And we also know its historical precedent.

So I would not dismiss the possibility at all.

In any case, Chávez will live on in tens of millions of people, Venezuela and Latin America will never return to genuflex passive subordination before the US, to the humiliation of living like animals in the 1990's. This man was deeply imperfect but with his leadership, a minimum of dignity, welfare and rights, were restored to this crushed continent.

Chavez, thank you for governing with love and humility, for the poor, the indigenous, the blacks, the women, the gays, the lesbians, the transgender, the unemployed, the destitute, the humble.

RIP Comandante! Love always defeats hate! EL AMOR VENCE AL ODIO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLiL2vLfI5s

[Social_Critic]

Funny. This is the man who abused human rights, created a cult of personality, palled with all sorts of dictators, allowed his relatives and friends to steal with impunity, allowed the country to reach world class crime rate, destroyed the little democracy they had, and left behind debt and ruins, a muzzled media, mothers being threatened with jail to subdue their sons, women tortured in jail, jail massacres, a destroyed health system...power cuts food shortages corruption. And all of this while enjoying the greatest oil price boom in history.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Funny. This is the man who abused human rights, created a cult of personality, palled with all sorts of dictators, allowed his relatives and friends to steal with impunity, allowed the country to reach world class crime rate, destroyed the little democracy they had, and left behind debt and ruins, a muzzled media, mothers being threatened with jail to subdue their sons, women tortured in jail, jail massacres, a destroyed health system...power cuts food shortages corruption. And all of this while enjoying the greatest oil price boom in history.

Crime is a big problem in all of the region, do you think Mexico, Brasil, Argentina are safe? But I hope your government can resolve this, because yes, it is very bad.

If we talk about regional politics, Chávez stood for the unity of Latin America, in this sense I admire him very much, he dialogued with everyone from Piñera and Santos to Lula and Mujica, of course without mention his allies who he supported against antidemocratic intimidation.

And you can like it or not, but he always won elections, which even international observers admitted were fair. I cannot comment on internal politics, but I can say that I have to respect the decision of the people. In the same way I respect the decision to elect Santos and Piñera, or Peña Nieto.

Chávez in many ways, was the leader in a regional movement, which gave dignity back to our broken Continent, and we will NEVER go back to the genuflex subordination of the 1990's.

I hope for you, and for all of us, that you can go forward from it with unity, to build on this progress, and correct the errors he made, and which exist in all of the region. This is the same challenge which many countries have to confront. I hope one day, there will be an opposition at the level of this historical challenge, an opposition which offers a project instead of insults and insinuations, an opposition which states its project of nation openly, which does not betray.

[Soulflytribe]

which gave dignity back to our broken Continent, and we will NEVER go back to the genuflex subordination of the 1990's.

Total trade between the US and Venezuela in 2012: $56 billion
Half of the Venezuelan exports went to the US.
30% of the Venezuelan imports came from the US.
95% of the Venezuelan exports were oil.

Total trade between Venezuela and Brazil in 2012: $6 billion

"we will NEVER go back to the genuflex subordination of the 1990's."

Haha.

[AndresSerrano]

There is no doubt that social justice, social progress, a more equitable society is a must in Latin America. This man, as his mentor, the tyrant Fidel, chose the worn path of confrontation, class warfare and the destruction of capitalistic practices to achieve their goals. The Russians, their satellites and Chinese learnt the bitter lesson: unless people have economic freedom, an economy does not work. Chavez thought that his vast resources could overcome history, could beat human nature and that he could win where Mao and Stalin failed. Not realizing of course that the resources Venezuela commands, while substantial, are like domino money to the resources controlled by the two giants to his north east.
ALL the aspirations of the Bolivarian Revolution could be achieved if instead of treating half the country as enemies, the regime gave them the economic freedom and taxed them heavily but fairly.
Instead, he has mired his loving people in misery, unemployment, confrontational politics, capital flight, constant power outages, shortages of everything from toilet paper to aspirin to spare parts to new cars. The slums are still there, the road network is far and away the shame of Latin America, the infrastructure, including the oil patch a disaster. Yes the PSUV members have free houses, free cars when they are cadres, you can get a job if you wear red and go to rallies. Overheard today at a road side cafe: Red wearing woman to friend: "let us hope this is the last fecking rally we have to attend, this is getting old". Answer: Don't you wish, remember we have an election coming up. We will be wearing out our asses on the bus and feet on the pavement for the next month"........

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Total trade between the US and Venezuela in 2012: $56 billion
Half of the Venezuelan exports went to the US.
30% of the Venezuelan imports came from the US.
95% of the Venezuelan exports were oil.

Total trade between Venezuela and Brazil in 2012: $6 billion

"we will NEVER go back to the genuflex subordination of the 1990's."

Haha.

I am confused, why does trade imply subordination?

[AndresSerrano]

Explanation: Sometimes in writing, one uses certain figures of speech to point out obvious facts, and sometimes one states obvious facts and follows them by a statement made by someone which is totally contradicted by the obvious facts that have been stated. Hope this helps.

[Social_Critic]

Crime is a lot worse in Venezuela under Chavez, and it keeps getting worse year after year. The Venezuelan elections are not fair. There's no reputable international observation of the elections anymore. I'm not Venezuelan, but I lived there for a long time, and I'm familiar with the way the electoral system was broken by Chavez. And now, as we speak, it is obliterated.

Chavez led nothing. Chavez was allowed to be the local clown by nations interested in getting business done in Venezuela (like the Brazilians), selling stuff to the Venezuelans (almost everybody), and getting cash from Venezuela (Cuba, Nicaragua, Cristina Fernandez, Bolivia, Ecuador, etc). Without the oil income, Chavez was nothing, a big mouth spouting about his bowel movements and praising Kaddafi and Idi Amin. Big deal.

I don't know who you think we are. I don't think a single Venezuelan is writing here (I suspect Andres Serrano is in Venezuela but is a foreigner). I live in Spain, the others are Brazilians and who knows what else. So no, we will not unite into anything, don't get sentimental. As far as the Venezuelans are concerned, they won't unite willingly. Half the country hates Chavez' guts in a visceral way you can't imagine, and about half the country thinks he's Jesus. But the ones who think he's Jesus got the guns, and have the Cubans behind them.

I have always realized Venezuela was lost. The mechanisms whereby a nation gets sick and dies are evident, and Venezuela is sick and dying. When I saw this, as early as 1999, I told the Venezuelans I knew to get out. And I have always continued to tell them to get out. So your comment about vaseline is completely uncalled for, and just shows the tendency some of you have to use coarse and abusive language.

You see, I'm not about to get screwed. I write here to bounce ideas and debate, but I also debate about Global warming with Igor and even try to recruit people for my new religion, which calls for me to carry out human sacrifices, starting with Noriega because he's a child molester.

[Soulflytribe]

I am confused, why does trade imply subordination?

Well, trade does not imply subordination, but when half of your country's exports go to one country only and 95% of your exports are oil you are not in a very comfortable position. I must add that the share of oil in the Venezuelan exports have just reached a 60-year high. If tomorrow the Americans decide to stop buying the Venezuelan oil your "independent people" will starve immediately. Venezuela is just a US employee right now (as it has always been), probably more US dependent than any other South American country. That's how "free" your people are.

Venezuela and Latin America will never return to genuflex passive subordination before the US, to the humiliation of living like animals in the 1990's.

It's impossible to understand what you really mean with this quote above. But I assume you are just repeating those stupid chavista slogans. Anyway, I have a gift for you! Have you seen the beautiful brand new ad created by the Venezuelan Government? It compares Chávez to no one other than Jesus Christ! It's really touching!
Chorus: "HE WILL BE BORN AGAIN!"

See here: http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/radar-on-line/internacional/chavez-assim-como-jesus-voltara-video-feito-por-joao-santana-sera-exibido-nas-tvs-venezuelanas-a-partir-de-hoje/

[Il Morto Che Parla]

There is no doubt that social justice, social progress, a more equitable society is a must in Latin America. This man, as his mentor, the tyrant Fidel, chose the worn path of confrontation, class warfare and the destruction of capitalistic practices to achieve their goals. The Russians, their satellites and Chinese learnt the bitter lesson: unless people have economic freedom, an economy does not work. Chavez thought that his vast resources could overcome history, could beat human nature and that he could win where Mao and Stalin failed. Not realizing of course that the resources Venezuela commands, while substantial, are like domino money to the resources controlled by the two giants to his north east.
ALL the aspirations of the Bolivarian Revolution could be achieved if instead of treating half the country as enemies, the regime gave them the economic freedom and taxed them heavily but fairly.
Instead, he has mired his loving people in misery, unemployment, confrontational politics, capital flight, constant power outages, shortages of everything from toilet paper to aspirin to spare parts to new cars. The slums are still there, the road network is far and away the shame of Latin America, the infrastructure, including the oil patch a disaster. Yes the PSUV members have free houses, free cars when they are cadres, you can get a job if you wear red and go to rallies. Overheard today at a road side cafe: Red wearing woman to friend: "let us hope this is the last fecking rally we have to attend, this is getting old". Answer: Don't you wish, remember we have an election coming up. We will be wearing out our asses on the bus and feet on the pavement for the next month"........

I agree with most of your points. It is important to construct an alliance between foreign and national investment and the state, and to have clear rules, to use foreign investment to develop the national businesses and to use all of the private sector, to develop the conditions of living of the people, with garuantees and profits for the private sector.

I am not "chavista". Though I think the comparison with Mao and Stalin is not correct, because Chávez was elected many times, and respected the decisions of his people when he lost legislative elections. It is true he had some authoritarian practices, but also you have to accept, that any government which is democratically elected, and then faced with attempts of destitution by the opposition, has the obligation to its supporters to defeat these attempts. I think that if any northern government had to face the same attacks, they also would respond in an authoritarian way.

I think that there was progress in many areas, and it was important to reconstruct alliances across the whole region, to defend against unequal trading relations with US and Europe. This is an important step, where I say Chávez was a leader to the region.

I say RIP because he was an elected Latin American President, and I would give the same respect to any elected President, such as Santos, Piñera. I especially have a respect for Chávez, because of his steps towards Latin American unity, and because think it is important to argue against many myths which now will be created. He had many weaknesses and mistakes, like also his opponents, but he was not a dictator, or a belligerent against his neighbours. He was elected many times by his people also, and I respect this.

[Social_Critic]

Chavez did nothing to change "unequal trading practices". What Chavez did was direct cash income from oil sales to buy imports from elsewhere. The regime had a very interesting strategy: it destroyed national production, making it uncompetitive by keeping the Bolivar rate fixed at a rate guaranteed to make local producers unable to compete with imports. This was reinforced by price controls, and by a series of nationalizations which rendered large sectors into inefficient and largely non productive state entities.

Thus as the local economy died, the regime replaced internal production with imports. The food shortages we see today are in part the result of the lack of port capacity to handle all the food imports the regime is getting from Brazil, Uruguay, and other nations. So what we see going on is exactly the same as we saw in communist nations as they destroyed their ability to feed themselves.

This strategy, if indeed it was a strategy, was viable because oil prices more than quadrupled during Chavez' time in the presidency. But today oil prices seem to have stabilized, and Venezuelan oil production seems to be headed in a relentless downward slope. This is the result of the brain drain and the regime's inability to accept guidance from foreign companies trying to work with PDVSA. These companies have a lot of patience, but they are not able to get PDVSA to behave rationally, and they are not getting paid, so their tendency is not to invest, with very few exceptions.

Furthermore, due to the lack of progress on regional trade agreements, South American nations are now going into small groups to sign agreements amongst themselves and with the USA and Canada. This is a growing trend, and has nothing to do with Chavez. There's a tendency by people who don't understand the nuances and the details to "get religion" and praise Chavez did, Chavez that. They don't realize Chavez is mostly a ghost, a montage, pure propaganda, and the man was hollow. Bad ideas, lousy execution, surrounded by yes men, an autocrat, venal, resentful, and coarse. Useless.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I think it is possible to write a book with all the contradictions of "Social Critic"

The guy who made a thread to "poke fun" said:

You don't get Latin American culture. We make fun of everything. It's really sad to see the way some people look at the world from their tower and think everybody else thinks like they do. You are alien to the way we think talk eat and scratch our backs. So learn all about it.

Then:

So your comment about vaseline is completely uncalled for, and just shows the tendency some of you have to use coarse and abusive language.

And also, "vaseline" is not abusive language, it is a brand name.

You see, I'm not about to get screwed. I write here to bounce ideas and debate, but I also debate about Global warming with Igor and even try to recruit people for my new religion, which calls for me to carry out human sacrifices, starting with Noriega because he's a child molester.

I don't know why you are writing this. Nobody asked and nobody cares.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Well, trade does not imply subordination, but when half of your country's exports go to one country only and 95% of your exports are oil you are not in a very comfortable position. I must add that the share of oil in the Venezuelan exports have just reached a 60-year high.

But as any opponent of Chávez will tell you, oil prices were at a historical high and increased nearly 10 times with relation to the 1990's, whereas the price of industrial products stagnated, fell of rose very slowly, so it would be strange if the dollars entering from oil exports, did not increase as a percentage of overall exports.

If tomorrow the Americans decide to stop buying the Venezuelan oil your "independent people" will starve immediately. Venezuela is just a US employee right now (as it has always been), probably more US dependent than any other South American country. That's how "free" your people are.

I am not venezuelan. I was born in Argentina and live in UK.

But I highlighted the key point: as it always has been. If you believe this, then it is strange that you blame this fact on Chávez.

Also, if the US wants to stop buying Venezuelan oil, and to stop someone who they accuse of being authoritarian and an ally of terrorists, then why don't they? Surely they would have a moral obligation to support freedom and and democracy, and to stop buying oil from Chavez?

The reason must be this, that it it is not in their interest to do so.

So tell me, what is the problem with a mutually beneficial trading relationship? Are you anti-US?

From my point of view, I say of course Chávez has not made Venezuela into Switzerland, like it was not Switzerland when he became the President, which you have admitted. However he has taken steps to strengthen the internal market, to industrialize oil production, to diversify the economy, and to create regional economic and political ties, with all countries from Colombia and México to Argentina and Uruguay. These are positive measures, which nobody can deny.

So I will be clear, you think I am chavista, I promise you I am not, I am a professional, I work in business, and I believe in economic freedom. BUT I want to remember at this sad time for the people of Venezuela, that our whole ocntinent is in a much better situation than 10 years ago, when we were "on the canvas", like a boxer. Today we are looking to a future of sustainable economic development, with industry, employment, dignified conditions for the middle class and workers, welfare, and economci sovereignity, where we will not rely on the IMF, but on our internal funding through natural resources, which not again will be in hands of foreign powers.

For these reasons I will say, I was not always of agreement, but he did more good things than bad things, so RIP Hugo, QEPD.

[Social_Critic]

The comment about vaseline is abusive language, but don't worry, I'm not about to go to the basement to complain.

Lets see...maybe I ought to explain how it should work:

Discussing public figures, past events, and people in the news is fine. You can insult them if it's done in a coherent sentence. Mentioning what you and or your friends are going to do to a PoFO participant's behind is considered bad manners, even if you disguise it using the vaseline reference. If you say you will do it to a living person, and you keep it up, it's iffy, it could be considered a threat. The god only knows what they'll do with you.

If you have any doubts, ask one of the moderators.

Oh, and another thing. I used to live in Argentina. It's an excellent example of how to ruin a country with wave after wave of shitty politicians. I was consulting down there a while back, and it seemed to me they were heading downhill. Can't fake the inflation figures forever.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Discussing public figures, past events, and people in the news is fine. You can insult them if it's done in a coherent sentence. Mentioning what you and or your friends are going to do to a PoFO participant's behind is considered bad manners, even if you disguise it using the vaseline reference. If you say you will do it to a living person, and you keep it up, it's iffy, it could be considered a threat. The god only knows what they'll do with you.

Personally, I think it is bad to laugh at a death, it can be Pinochet, Saddam, Reagan, it does not matter. You say it is "fine", but I think it shows an ugly side to you.

Second, my comment of vaseline was about the opposition as a whole, not to you personally, and in second place it was a JOKE, in the same way you made a thread to "poke fun".

Oh, and another thing. I used to live in Argentina. It's an excellent example of how to ruin a country with wave after wave of shitty politicians. I was consulting down there a while back, and it seemed to me they were heading downhill. Can't fake the inflation figures forever.

I respect your opinion.

But if you are in Spain, you should worry more about your 26% unemployment, and 60% unemployment of your young people, and the fact you are governed from BERLIN. And let us worry about our inflation.

Consider this like advice from a friend.

[Social_Critic]

The subject isn't Spain. Feel free to open a discussion in the European section. You posted the OP about Hugo Chavez, and you should defend your opinion, which I happen to think is way off.

It' s better if you do focus on a subject and try to discuss it in a civil manner, because thus far you are not doing well. I said i lived in Spain, I didn't say I'm from here.

Chavez was sheer garbage, a pompous asshole, he deserved to die for his crimes. The coming regime will be worse than Chavez' unless the Cubans do manage to keep them under control, which I think they will. Venezuela will do a bit better as a Cuban colony, even if it pisses off the Venezuelans. Chavez surrounded himself with incompetents, yes men, thieves, and murderers. So it's not going to be pretty.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

The subject isn't Spain. Feel free to open a discussion in the European section. You posted the OP about Hugo Chavez, and you should defend your opinion

But you were talking about ARGENTINA, so it has same relevance for me to talk about Spain.

I said i lived in Spain, I didn't say I'm from here.

But if you live there, the economy affects you. So I think you should worry less about Argentina and more about the fact you live in an economy in depression.

Chavez was sheer garbage, a pompous asshole, he deserved to die for his crimes. The coming regime will be worse than Chavez' unless the Cubans do manage to keep them under control, which I think they will. Venezuela will do a bit better as a Cuban colony, even if it pisses off the Venezuelans. Chavez surrounded himself with incompetents, yes men, thieves, and murderers. So it's not going to be pretty.

Pure insults and hate, 0 arguments.

Keep like this, keep losing elections.

[jc_]

I am confused, why does trade imply subordination?

Read their statement at Rio+20 where they condemn (rightly) the parasitic nature of capitalism while explicitly siding with the United States, of all people, on the issue of climate change and economic development.

Socialist societies should seek economic self-sufficiency. Anything else is subordination to the global markets. And they say as much. Hell the Venezuelan constitution, in Articles 11-13, and Article 302, underline the necessity for the state to control its resources. Yet, here we are, with Venezuela selling itself to foreign imperialist entities. And doing so happily.

It's double speak.

[Social_Critic]

Che, you sure try my patience. I can talk about Argentina all I want. It's bad manners to mention anything about whether you will lose your job in London. I mention Argentina when the discussion becomes relevant. Discussing whether I will lose a hypothetical job in Spain is considered bad manners.

For example, I mention I consulted in Argentina in the recent past because it can be useful to readers as a personal note. You will notice I do this, and the communists tend to bitch about it. I happen to live in Spain because I like it. It has good weather, the people are excellent, crime is very low, the food is good, and I can fly from here easily.

I could go to the USA or a lower tax country but at my age I would rather enjoy being in a civilized place with good weather. And I spent too many years in really fucked up countries. I was a bit crazy and volunteered for some really weird things. So here I am, and there you are.

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Che, you sure try my patience. I can talk about Argentina all I want. It's bad manners to mention anything about whether you will lose your job in London. I mention Argentina when the discussion becomes relevant. Discussing whether I will lose a hypothetical job in Spain is considered bad manners.

For example, I mention I consulted in Argentina in the recent past because it can be useful to readers as a personal note. You will notice I do this, and the communists tend to bitch about it. I happen to live in Spain because I like it. It has good weather, the people are excellent, crime is very low, the food is good, and I can fly from here easily.

I could go to the USA or a lower tax country but at my age I would rather enjoy being in a civilized place with good weather. And I spent too many years in really fucked up countries. I was a bit crazy and volunteered for some really weird things. So here I am, and there you are.

We have a different definition of "manners" and of "relevant".

I do not think it is good manners to mock the dead (it is something I would never do, however much I disagreed with the person), or to make racist insults. and I think if you act in this way, you should not be so snesible whenever somebody will make a joking comment to you (which is much less hateful, than the things you write in every post).

You can say whatever you want, I do not believe in censorship. I am glad for the world to see how you guys think.

Enjoy Spain. The food is very nice, this is why the Spanish young people are so good at cleaning plates in London.

"The people who win rights do not hate, they are celebrate. Only those who lose privileges hate".