Mujica, the Najashi of our time - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14501989
Is it actually allowed for Muslims to pray for non-Muslims, or does that rule only apply to those non-Muslims who have passed away? Regardless, I don't think the President of Uruguay is going to convert and be guided to Islam soon, as much as you'd like that.

then they were given apartments, salaries, and loads of job offers from the public to start a new life
champions of human rights

Expect Latin Americans to quickly get sick of them if there are any political Islamists amongst them and if they start rearing their heads in public. Perhaps they will be placated by the recently legalised haraam marijuana they have there and transform into non-Muslims. Countries like Uruguay and Argentina are indeed wholly Western, European-derived countries, so it's curious for all of your fulminating against the Western world, here you are lauding Western liberal values of tolerance in Uruguay. Are you a Western liberal, or are you an Islamist? You cannot have both.
#14502029
Noob wrote:Is it actually allowed for Muslims to pray for non-Muslims,

Of course!

Noob wrote:or does that rule only apply to those non-Muslims who have passed away?

Right, since their fate is now sealed.

Noob wrote:Regardless, I don't think the President of Uruguay is going to convert and be guided to Islam soon, as much as you'd like that.

The Creator is the changer of hearts, not us.

Noob wrote:Expect Latin Americans to quickly get sick of them if there are any political Islamists amongst them and if they start rearing their heads in public.

Contrary to your delusions, not everyone is an Islam hater.

Noob wrote:Perhaps they will be placated by the recently legalised haraam marijuana they have there and transform into non-Muslims. Countries like Uruguay and Argentina are indeed wholly Western, European-derived countries, so it's curious for all of your fulminating against the Western world,

Latin America, although it has roots in Western colonialism has been famous for resistance against Western colonialism.

Noob wrote:here you are lauding Western liberal values of tolerance in Uruguay. Are you a Western liberal, or are you an Islamist? You cannot have both.

Reminds me of the Communist Brotherhood.
#14502032
abu_rashid wrote:Contrary to your delusions, not everyone is an Islam hater.

Contrary to your delusions, the descendants of Italians and Spaniards which make up the entire population of Uruguay, only need reminding about their ancestors' troubles and battles with Islamic peoples and they will soon snap back to reality (if such a thing is even needed in the first place).

abu_rashid wrote:Latin America, although it has roots in Western colonialism has been famous for resistance against Western colonialism.

But no, there are no strong traditions of Islam-loving in Latin America and these societies, being Roman Catholic, are usually fiercely hostile to Islam. Resistance to colonialism does not mean love for Islam or that these societies are on your side.

abu_rashid wrote:Reminds me of the Communist Brotherhood.

You only care about promoting talk of human rights when it affects the adherents of your religion. Your celebration of Uruguay's adherence to human rights is hypocritical and far less convincing than when some Westerners pretend to care about all the peoples of the world.
#14502037
Noob wrote:Contrary to your delusions, the descendants of Italians and Spaniards which make up the entire population of Uruguay, only need reminding about their ancestors' troubles and battles with Islamic peoples and they will soon snap back to reality (if such a thing is even needed in the first place).


Why would people of the Americas care about your European problems?

N wrote:But no, there are no strong traditions of Islam-loving in Latin America and these societies, being Roman Catholic, are usually fiercely hostile to Islam. Resistance to colonialism does not mean love for Islam or that these societies are on your side.


There are no strong traditions of hating Islam in Catholicism or in Latin America. You also have to understand that many Latin Americans had to deal with oppression from US backed dictatorships during the Cold War. Many Latin Americans have first hand experience of places like Camp X-Ray and the human rights abuses there. It is only human that they feel compassion for those who have undergone similar ordeals.
#14502045
Pants-of-dog wrote:Why would people of the Americas care about your European problems?

Because their origins are European (Uruguay specifically). Why should abu_rashid, a Muslim convert living in Australia, care about the happenings of the Arabian Peninsula, homeland of Islam? Perhaps there is no justifiable reason, yet he persists.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It is only human that they feel compassion for those who have undergone similar ordeals.

Sure. But abu_rashid doesn't actually care about human rights in a universalist sense, and moreover, I don't think that the President of Uruguay is embracing these former prisoners out of love for human rights, but it's rather a symbolic gesture to pointedly distance himself, his country and the rest of Latin America from the hegemony of the US. Which can be said to be a good thing.
#14502069
Noob wrote:Because their origins are European (Uruguay specifically). Why should abu_rashid, a Muslim convert living in Australia, care about the happenings of the Arabian Peninsula, homeland of Islam? Perhaps there is no justifiable reason, yet he persists.


I assume abu_rashid cares because of his religion. Uruguayans are not religiously European. Latin American Catholicism is not European Catholicism. And most countries in the Americas have more than European origins. Why should we prioritise that part? So we can hate Muslims? How is that even useful or interesting or anything other than bigoted and distasteful?

N wrote:Sure. But ... I don't think that the President of Uruguay is embracing these former prisoners out of love for human rights, but it's rather a symbolic gesture to pointedly distance himself, his country and the rest of Latin America from the hegemony of the US. Which can be said to be a good thing.


It is completely possible to do both simultaneously, which is what I believe Señor Mujica is doing.
#14502079
Pants-of-dog wrote:I assume abu_rashid cares because of his religion. Uruguayans are not religiously European. Latin American Catholicism is not European Catholicism.

I think you're trying to draw up artificial divisions, Pants-of-dog. If what you're saying is the case, how is it that the Pope Francis presently in Rome is an Argentinian? Southern Europe and Latin America presently have in common their Roman Catholicism. They also have in common their shared ethnic and cultural origins with Southern Europe.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And most countries in the Americas have more than European origins. Why should we prioritise that part?

Yes, but Uruguay (and Argentina) are wholly of European extraction. There's no need to measure those countries by any other standard.
#14502091
JRS1 wrote:LOL. They are. It is. Unless they have recently converted to CoE.


Liberation theology came from Latin America.

-------------

Noob wrote:I think you're trying to draw up artificial divisions, Pants-of-dog. If what you're saying is the case, how is it that the Pope Francis presently in Rome is an Argentinian? Southern Europe and Latin America presently have in common their Roman Catholicism. They also have in common their shared ethnic and cultural origins with Southern Europe.


The fact that the Vatican has finally chosen a non-European as the Supreme Pontiff does not magically erase all the differences between European and Latin American socio-religious experiences.

Noob wrote:Yes, but Uruguay (and Argentina) are wholly of European extraction. There's no need to measure those countries by any other standard.


Even if we pretend that the minority populations of non-whites is completely insignificant (which is not true) and we pretend that all whites in Uruguay are descendants of Italians and Spaniards (again, not true), we still have the problem that these people have been living on a completely different continent for 500 years, and during that time, Europeans and North Americans tried over and over to screw Uruguayans over.
#14502100
Pants-of-dog wrote:The fact that the Vatican has finally chosen a non-European as the Supreme Pontiff does not magically erase all the differences between European and Latin American socio-religious experiences.

Sure. Latin American societies have developed independently. But would you say that Argentina's society (minimal difference to Uruguay) more closely resembles Spain, or Peru?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Even if we pretend that the minority populations of non-whites is completely insignificant (which is not true) and we pretend that all whites in Uruguay are descendants of Italians and Spaniards (again, not true), we still have the problem that these people have been living on a completely different continent for 500 years, and during that time, Europeans and North Americans tried over and over to screw Uruguayans over.

The statistics that I'm seeing for "native Americans" in these two countries is that they are a virtually non-existent population group. It's different in Paraguay, though, for instance. I'm not making the case that Argentinians are Italians or Spaniards. However, virtually all of them have Italian or Spanish ancestry. Acknowledging shared ties between these different parts of the world doesn't automatically mean colonialism.
#14502103
Noob wrote:Sure. Latin American societies have developed independently. But would you say that Argentina's society (minimal difference to Uruguay) more closely resembles Spain, or Peru?


In terms of relations with Muslim majority nations, Peru, obviously.

N wrote:The statistics that I'm seeing for "native Americans" in these two countries is that they are a virtually non-existent population group. It's different in Paraguay, though, for instance. I'm not making the case that Argentinians are Italians or Spaniards. However, virtually all of them have Italian or Spanish ancestry.


I pretended that all of this was true for the sake of argument.

Acknowledging shared ties between these different parts of the world doesn't automatically mean colonialism.


The only way to pretend that Latinos will hate Muslims the same way Europeans do is if you completely ignore the different histories of the two continents, especially in regards to colonialism.
#14502124
The only way to pretend that Latinos will hate Muslims the same way Europeans do is if you completely ignore the different histories of the two continents, especially in regards to colonialism.

Sure, but don't take that to mean that they differ drastically with regards to difference of opinion on Islam. There has always been interaction between Europe and the Americas since the two American continents were colonised.

Perhaps we could find some statistics on world attitudes to Muslim countries (which would be the closest thing to find for Islam). I maintain that I don't think Latin American and European attitudes would be all that different. Here is a report that shows perceptions of two countries (Iran and Pakistan). Generally, there is less negativity, but the same amount of positivity (which is what I alluded to in the first place).
#14502136
Noob wrote:Sure, but don't take that to mean that they differ drastically with regards to difference of opinion on Islam. There has always been interaction between Europe and the Americas since the two American continents were colonised.


Yes, you should take it to mean that they differ drastically with regards to difference of opinion on Islam. The current view of Islam in Europe and North America is based almost entirely on neo-colonialist policies of Middle east intervention. Latin America has taken a decidedly different approach, pretty much staying out of the whole bombing Muslims thing, thus having no great anti-Muslim sentiment.

Noob wrote:Perhaps we could find some statistics on world attitudes to Muslim countries (which would be the closest thing to find for Islam). I maintain that I don't think Latin American and European attitudes would be all that different. Here is a report that shows perceptions of two countries (Iran and Pakistan). Generally, there is less negativity, but the same amount of positivity (which is what I alluded to in the first place).


You alluded to both positive and negative views. I think it would be more correct to say that Latinos have a varied view of Islam, with no particular tradition standing out.
#14502140
Yeah whatever, abu_rashid's exaltation of the President of Uruguay remains hypocritical and is informed by his own self-interest rather than any supposed universalist feelings. He doesn't care about human rights when applied to Shi'a Muslims, Yazidis, Christians, or any other ethno-religious group. His concern is only with Muslims.

Furthermore, that Valentine's day-esque love letter up there is totally fucking ridiculously laughable.
#14502141
Noob wrote:....

Furthermore, that Valentine's day-esque love letter up there is totally fucking ridiculously laughable.


I like the cheesiness of it. But I also like the syrupy sweet Coke commercials in the theaters before a movie. I'm a sap.
#14502205
Noob wrote:Yeah whatever, abu_rashid's exaltation of the President of Uruguay remains hypocritical and is informed by his own self-interest rather than any supposed universalist feelings. He doesn't care about human rights when applied to Shi'a Muslims, Yazidis, Christians, or any other ethno-religious group. His concern is only with Muslims.

Furthermore, that Valentine's day-esque love letter up there is totally fucking ridiculously laughable.

And this post made it all worthwhile
#14502208
Just look at it though, with the baby pink colouring and cute phrase at the bottom. Were you planning on donning some lipstick, kissing the inside cover of the card (that I presume you made) and posting it to the man himself? Perhaps you also wanted to send a box of chocolates to him covered in love heart wrapping paper? Señor Mujica - so dreamy for Islamists.
#14502265
Noob wrote:Just look at it though, with the baby pink colouring and cute phrase at the bottom. Were you planning on donning some lipstick, kissing the inside cover of the card (that I presume you made) and posting it to the man himself? Perhaps you also wanted to send a box of chocolates to him covered in love heart wrapping paper? Señor Mujica - so dreamy for Islamists.

I didn't make it, no. I just found it very befitting, as every time I've watched something on Mujica, I've always reflected on how much his humble and austere lifestyle resembles that of the early Muslim rulers.

The fact he's now taking in the Guantanamo victims is also very reminiscent of how the Najashi took in the early Muslims and sheltered them from the oppression of the Arabs.

Anyway I think you're reading too much into it. I am indeed a supporter of treating people well, regardless of their ethnicity, religious affiliation or any other factor. I know you can't get past your "You're an Islamist, you must support ISIS" delusion, but sooner or later, it might sink in I guess.

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