[Tainari88]

Well Zionist Nationalist,

I don't care about your opinions on socialism. Most self centered and wealthy people love all that selfish system. Let me guess which socioeconomic class you come from. Wealthy one or comfortable middle class etc, used to getting everything in life with the cushion of access without struggling. I don't think I really respect those talking about other countries and how they suck and how great their nations are. Those are foolish posters in general. Lol. I could care less for that. Any Zionist who doesn't get why so many Jewish people needed to band together and share everything they had as a GROUP over individualistic sellout backstabbing egotism, doesn't understand his own history. That is my only reply to you about Zionism.

You might not like it? But it is universal. People either adopt it or have terrible problems. Besides wasn't Karl Marx a German Jew? The father of what you hate is part of your ethnic group.....there is diversity in all nations. You happen to be on the side of it that loves the privilege and selfish behavior. All of those ideologies based on some group having more and being wealthy by magic and other ill conceived analysis is doomed to repeat the same fate as all the other thinkers of---my group is the only one that counts. These nations (like Venezuela) are worthless. Etc. etc. That thinking never does get anywhere in history. It never does.

[skinster]

Venezuelan Supreme Court Building Set on Fire

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

The peaceful US State Department backed/funded freedom activists strike again!

[Hong Wu]

This just in: country rich in natural resources and can't effectively manage flour, internet communists attack the characters of emaciated rioters. What's next, Russians?

After all, if the US is behind this, then Trump is behind this, which means it's really Russia's fault, or so these things seem to go.

[Igor Antunov]

US NGO's pumped $5 billion into Kiev anti government protests, it was enough to incite a bunch of radicals to storm government buildings and stage a coup. Poor little Venezuela seemingly never stood a chance and yet it holds on. Methinks were only get one side of the situation on the ground...

[skinster]

Interview with the other side:

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Those poor, starving protesters who just want some democracy and freedom (in a country with elections) and some TV sets to help feed their families. I'm sure there's no outside involvement whatsoever: America has never interfered in the democratic politics of Latin American countries. Never ever. America didn't admit it openly in a State Dept. document, and America would never continue to interfere in Venezuelan stability.

[skinster]

America has its dirty paws all over this.

[mikema63]

God help me I'm going to weigh in. *Buckles seat belt and puts on crash helmet*

I dont have tons of hope for a lot of discourse but I'll do my best to answer any questions or replies that people have if I feel like it won't result in a vitriolic exchange.

A disclaimer, I don't consider myself an expert so all my positions are provisionary thoughts more than anything.

I think there are a couple of things going on, and yes America is part of the equation but I'll get to that in a bit.

First and foremost I think Venezuela has been simply mismanaged. Not because socialism is evil or always leads to collapse.

Venezuela has replied on its oil money to provide welfare and necessities to it's people. Which is fine of course, but what they didn't buy was sufficient capital for other industries. Venezuela is not a humoungous country with diversified industries, it didn't look to the Chinese model for how to develop it's economy. Instead it relied on easy oil money and put price controls on food products. The oil money has dried up as prices have dropped and the price controls make it almost impossible to import things. They also cant produce enough domestically because they never diversified their economy. They also cut into welfare because of lack of money and have done tons of inflation which hurts their poorest most. Which leads into the second thing.

Politically Maduro hurt himself in his base, the poorest on welfare who saw cuts. The country is struggling and it makes sense that the opposition saw political gains. Why wouldn't they in any democracy? There have been other crackdowns on opposition leaders but I'm going to focus on the supreme Court and the attempt to dissolve parlament.

Three opposition politicians were convicted if vote buying by the supreme Court. The opposition ignored this claiming it was a fake charge but realistically it was to maintain a super majority in the parlament. Regardless the supreme Court ended up declaring the parlament dissolved and then back tracked on it three days later.

This fanned beliefs in the country that Maduro was cracking down on their democracy. There were a few attacks on protests etc. And now many Venezuelans are worried the Democratic process is under attack. Maduro declaring the parlimantary election as a coup doesn't help.

On American influence. American influence is almost entirely propagandistic and informational in this situation. We pipe in ideas that we think will benefit us and they have taken hold somewhat in a time of crisis.

Some on the left have argued that the drop in oil prices was coordinated by the US, Saudi Arabia, and what have you. I just don't see evidence for that. Saudi Arabia itself is loosing money from the current gas price and a multilateral conspiracy to effect a global gas price because of Venezuela is just a tad outlandish. If anything Washington would seek lower gas prices for no other reason than supporting economic growth not some far sighted geopolitical strategy in venezuela.

American influence is almost purely informational, and the protests are real people really suffering and truly afraid for the future of their government. Maduro is reacting to failed policies not by rexamining the policies Venezuela has (and I don't mean he should necessarily embrace capitalism) but by doubling down on them and attacking his opponents. He's lost the faith of his base.

America is around on the edges, but if Venezuela had better managed it's economy it wouldn't matter what America did. Blaming America solely simply isn't a realistic understanding of the situation as I see it.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

America is around on the edges, but if Venezuela had better managed it's economy it wouldn't matter what America did. Blaming America solely simply isn't a realistic understanding of the situation as I see it.

I don't think anyone in here critical of the Venezuelan opposition solely blames America. Venezuela has been too reliant on its petrodollars. The government in Venezuela ever since Chavez/Maduro were elected has been pretty generous about helping to house and provide for the poor and working class citizens. With oil profits shrinking, the Venezuelan economy has suffered, and those same generous policies and benefits have begun dwindling. There's definitely been mismanagement involved, but there have also been plenty of cases in which regional wholesalers, supermarkets, and other businesses have been caught hoarding goods to raise prices.

I don't think the problem is entirely the fault of people mismanaging the problem, people who are being pressured by the opposition to help make the economic situation worse in order to stoke the political turmoil in Venezuela (the opposition is led by people who have received a lot of US government money and support, and opposition leaders were involved in the failed coup attempt of 2002), or America. Bad elements on all sides, along with the facts on the ground concerning the Venezuelan economy (they did not do a good job diversifying), all play a role in Venezuela's current problems.

I'm just highly critical of outside elements that want to exploit Venezuela's problems in the hopes of getting rid of a democratically-elected government that doesn't get down on its knees for American interests, and which wants to privatize Venezuela's natural resources to exploit that, too.

[mikema63]

The opposition has been mismanaged too. The practices they've engaged in have handed Maduro amunition against them. Both sides have been trying to do too much to fast and have been horrifyingly *shivers* unpragmatic. *Waves fan at face*

As for being extremely critical of foreign interference. Well, I'm fundamentally a realist on foreign affairs. Foreign interference is inevitable, for everybody, always. I don't blame Venezuela for fighting it or for foreign countries from doing it (China is also heavily involved).

I do think most of Venezuela's problems are homegrown however.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

As for being extremely critical of foreign interference. Well, I'm fundamentally a realist on foreign affairs. Foreign interference is inevitable, for everybody, always. I don't blame Venezuela for fighting it or for foreign countries from doing it (China is also heavily involved).

You misunderstand: I did not say there is no foreign interference in Venezuela, and I'm not talking about anything in terms of idealism.

[mikema63]

I was just putting my point of view out there, not necessarily making a comment on your views.

In essence the US wants a liberal country, preferably a democracy, that is economically dependent on it.

China want a country economically dependent on it.

Venezuela in it's current situation probably can't stand alone and will be caught in one sphere or another. Neither is necessarily better than the other. I just don't really see it as something to kick up tons of fuss about beyond commenting on.

I apologize for using you to bounce some of the other thoughts on without being clear.

[skinster]

[davidbilly]

Well If you nationalize businesses and industries you will probably end up with a country like Venezuela or Cuba. The incentive of taking risks and working hard disappears also the country cannot keep the competitive advantages it had to keep to export & earn foreign exchange.

[skinster]

[mikema63]

Vox put this up and it agrees with some of my views.

Thoughts?

[youtube]S1gUR8wM5vA[/youtube]

[Zionist Nationalist]

Vox put this up and it agrees with some of my views.

Thoughts?

[youtube]S1gUR8wM5vA[/youtube]

I agree with this video


but skinster and her like will still say that its all being made by the CIA and that maduro is a legitimate president (despite clearly being a dictator who wont allow fair elections)

[SolarCross]

Vox put this up and it agrees with some of my views.

Thoughts?

Seems plausible.

[skinster]

Vox put this up and it agrees with some of my views.

Thoughts?

The source for the 80% figure of people opposed to Maduro by DatAnalysis, who is that? I google'd it and found zilch.

Also.