Puerto Rico's Relationship with the USA and the Jones Act and Hurricane Maria - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties from Mexico to Argentina.

Moderator: PoFo Latin America Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#14847131
The Jones Act is finally waived to help Puerto Rico. Should have been waived decades ago but that is colonialism for you:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opin ... s-act.html

I would like to discuss what is the future of the USA with its colonial possessions and territories and how undemocratic the USA has become? Are you ready to discuss just how false a lot of notions are about the USA's internal policies or are you going to be saying that being in direct contradiction to what the USA spouts about freedom is justified?
#14847151
Are you ready to discuss just how false a lot of notions are about the USA's internal policies or are you going to be saying that being in direct contradiction to what the USA spouts about freedom is justified?


Coming out swinging. :lol:

Puerto Rico will probably become a state eventually but the forces in favor of the status quo are extremely strong.

Guam isn't going to be let go, because military, statehood is probably it's eventual fate as well.

Frankly I think statehood while complicated is probably more likely than independence for all our territories. Most of what I could find in some quick searches is that independence movements in these territories are just really weak. So status quo and eventually absorbtion seem to be what's most likely.
#14847743
Mikema, you need to take the long view. Study Palau it was made an independent nation in 1993. Which colonies of ex Empires ever became integrated states in the history of modern and ancient colonialism. The USA is a case in point. The USA was a colony of England. Did England make it part of parliament with a vote, the answer is simple. No it did not. And the USA and England spoke the same common language. Did Algeria become part of France_. No it did not. Puerto Rico, the USVI, Guam and others such as the Solomon Islands and American Somoa, etc. are all unincorporated territories. That means that if the USA Dept of the Interior had the intentions of making them states in the not too distant future they would make them incorporated territories first. They have not done that. The USA currently has massive debt. They would have to invest billions upon billions of dollars maybe into the trillions to get many of these island colonies up to scratch. They will not do so. Even now that idiot Trump keeps on mentioning the debt owed to Wall Street when the island is in crisis with no electricity and no running water and totally unable to make enormous payments on a debt created by those asskissing PNP politicians and the Wall Street vultures.

Being realistic means one thing. Empires let go of their colonies under the right conditions. And usually it is when they lose a war. Or they run out of enough money to keep them going without losing internal control of their own situations. That is reality. Not bullshit about democracy and making us USA states. Got to accept Mikema that the USA is not about democracy if it has made the decision to have colonial possessions. That is not the behavior of democracy loving republics with true popular vote respect and allowing others to make their own self determination decisions. That is about being Empires and being oppressive. Oppressors only respond to pressure. Not democracy.

Well now that latest news is about Carmen Yulin Cruz the mayor of San Juan{s speech about not having help and Trump killing the people due to inefficiency and bureaucracy. Trump as usual tweets out something inappropriate and unhelpful.

Carmen Yulin is at least from a traditional Puerto Rican party and not a statehood fake founded party by a Cuban exile who hates communism like all the rabid Right Wing fanatically Miami Cubans who rant and rave about getting Cuba back from the Commies and taking Cuba back from the boogie man that is dead for months now. The Ferre family are Cuban exiles from Cuba. Millionaires who relocated to Puerto Rico. They are the founders along with some interfering fearmongers from DC who cooked up that statehood party in the first place that hasn{t been able to come up with a solution to the problem they have that is about not being able to arm twist the USA into making Puerto Rico the 51st state of the Union of the USA now. The Republicans don{t want a bunch of bankrupt, food coupon, poverty striken mulatto people voting for president who speak English with a thick Spanish accent. That is not their base. So the dumb statehood party has to come up with creative ways of trying to stroke that egomaniac of a POTUS ego and not making him look bad as he demonstrates his lack of dedication to the relief effort in Puerto Rico. Rossello is trying to not offend his superior there...and at the same time trying to get funds to deal with catastrophe right now without offending the tweeter in chief. All these treading lightly on eggshell conservative Puerto Ricans are not good at telling the truth.

Carmen Yulin Cruz doesn{t care about not offending the Trump to get the help she needs to save the lives of Puerto Ricans. She is not part of that party that is from the perspective of {someday we might be part of the USA* how can you want to be a part of a nation that you are second class citizen of....think about it. The only way the African Americans got some justice was by facing down dogs, racist police chiefs, getting their leaders heads blown off and blood in the streets for years. I don{t know if the island is ready for that at all. Until then they sure are getting a dose of what racist Americans and their tweeter in chief is like when he has to show his true colors. I hope they wake up about their dreams of being equal. No one gives you equality. You got to fight like hell for it. That is the only way.
#14847809
Independence would mean losing the ability to freely migrate to the USA. It seems most Puerto Ricans understand this and prefer statehood to independence.

The point is that they are highly unlikely to get either statehood or independence. The current status quo, which is effectively colonial status, is likely to persist for the foreseeable future, because it suits the strategic and political needs of the USA. The fact that the current status quo of being an "unincorporated territory" (i.e., a colony) of the USA is actually highly detrimental to Puerto Rico is irrelevant to anyone except Puerto Ricans themselves, who can exert little or no political leverage in Washington.
#14847846
As pote said, the status quo works for us. While both parties claim that they support statehood the percieved political leaning of the island to the Democrats mean Republicans will consistently resist it.

It would also need to be bailed out and there are some groups that make a buck off its status so they would resist it.

The status quo is always an easy option.
#14848087
As pote said, the status quo works for us. While both parties claim that they support statehood the percieved political leaning of the island to the Democrats mean Republicans will consistently resist it.


The status quo is not working for ANYONE. Carmen Yulin Cruz Soto is from the PPD party. Founded by Luis Munoz Rivera. It was a pro independence party of autonomists that struck a deal with the Roosevelt administration to give up their push for independence if they agreed to allow the USA to hang on to Puerto Rico as a military and geopolitical outpost to help the USA keep its eye on Central America and South America and the rest of the Caribbean including Cuba. To this day if you read the NYT article on who she is they are accusing her of being a socialist and a leftist from the old wing of that party. You had better study Puerto Rican political history Mikema. The status quo party is the PPD. Not the PNP or the PIP. Puerto Rico recently has had a series of new parties crop up. Some of them are highly unorthodox. The most conservative political party on the island is the Partido Nuevo Progresista (PNP) a misnomer because progressive has nothing to do with that party. It is a statehood party founded in 1968 by a bunch of ex Cuban Right Wing Exiles and Washington Republicans from the opposing party of Kennedy who later filtered into the Nixon administration. They were upset about Cuban Revolutions and losing their grip on the Spanish speaking Caribbean with the DR, PR and Cuba. So they cooked up the statehood party who never wanted any kind of independence and got extremely aggressive repressing the nationalist sentiments on the island and being independent. In the process the moderate PPD became the 'status quo' party. Yet even they over the years have been choking by the restrictions imposed by the Jones Act, and taxes and investments leaving the island to be reinvested in banks who have no interest in growing the local Puerto Rican economy. Since there are no votes allowed or reps or senators who can vote allowed in DC for Puerto Rican interests? The banks were allowed to create rules, laws and economic plans that were detrimental to Puerto Rico but favored the USA only. And the private sector vulture capitalists. That is why Trump is worried about shipping interests and Wall Street bankers instead of relief efforts. The man is transparent in his business dealings with his cronies. He is not worried about lack of water and food Ricans. He is worried about how much money the treasury might have to pour into Puerto Rico and not having our debt be serviced and saying no to his crony capitalist ass investors.

It would also need to be bailed out and there are some groups that make a buck off its status so they would resist it.

The status quo is always an easy option.


The statehooders are worried now. They are realizing Trumpet man is not going to be happy about giving money he needs for his schemes in DC. He needs money for his war in who knows Korea or Asia now? He needs money for his wall in the Southern Border, he needs money for x and y and not for a bunch of non voting Puerto Ricans who are not his base. What are the statehooders gonna do now? Sing his praises while the average Puerto Rican sees no improvement in electrical power or water service for MONTHS? Time to unmask the liars and the fakers. It is truth time. As all crisis is that. The Chinese proverb is right. Crisis is danger and opportunity. Both. And this is the opportunity to see what the USA's gov't real intention is towards Puerto Rico. If they renege on BILLIONS to rebuild? They have spoken.

Please check out this article in the NYT about who Carmen Yulin Cruz is:

Wikipedia gives a brief bio on her. She is a graduate from Boston University in Political Science. B.A. She also has a Master's in Public Admin from Carnegie Mellon University in Pennsylvania. She worked for the PPD for years.

She beat out Santini the old Mayor from the PNP and his crony who had a scandal about domestic violence that made him look bad.

Check this out:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/us/s ... -cruz.html

Her resume is about corporate jobs. She is not a socialist. This doesn't surprise me. Because American Democrats are very watery leftists. Most others in other countries and from other cultures (including Latin American politics) the Left is a lot more left. Not Carmen. Carmen Yulin is a moderate.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 02 Oct 2017 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
#14848102
POD, we get very little for what we contribute in terms of consumption and what the banks and businessmen make in Puerto Rico without being taxed by Uncle Sam.


they also get at least $21 billion dollars annually in federal aid


We get screwed by bankers, the USA government, even the Puerto Rican veterans if they choose to live on the island get LESS than the veterans in the mainland. How do you justify that shit? Please tell me?

Independence would mean losing the ability to freely migrate to the USA. It seems most Puerto Ricans understand this and prefer statehood to independence.


Would you say to a native Floridian or a native Texan? You need to leave Texas or Florida forever and just abandon it? It is destroyed by a hurricane. There is going to be a mass exodus out of Puerto Rico. Mostly young adults and children. About a quarter of the island lives off social security. Those won't leave. What Trump doesn't get is that if one million Puerto Ricans move to Jersey, Connecticut, New York and Florida and Atlanta Georgia they automatically can VOTE. And they won't vote for a tweeter who did not care about their lack of cell phone service in a crisis. The Republicans don't seem to understand that if all of the 3.5 million Puerto Ricans relocate to the USA and leave Puerto Rico behind because the congress did not decided to give them billions to rebuild Puerto Rico they are facing a mass exodus with VOTING RIGHTS in the next election. In swing states like Florida. Right now there are almost the same amount of Puerto Ricans in Florida as there are Cuban exiles and their native born Cuban children. And the Puerto Ricans are not conservative in voting blocks. Marco Rubio knows in order to get that future block of voters he needs to show up there NOW. The Republicans from the white nationalist incompetent school like Trump don't get it.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 02 Oct 2017 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
#14848107
The status quo is not working for ANYONE.


By us I mean the US government and it's various interests. And the situations works perfectly well or it wouldn't have been maintained.
The statehooders are worried now. They are realizing Trumpet man is not going to be happy about giving money he needs for his schemes in DC. He needs money for his war in who knows Korea or Asia now? He needs money for his wall in the Southern Border, he needs money for x and y and not for a bunch of non voting Puerto Ricans who are not his base. What are the statehooders gonna do now? Sing his praises while the average Puerto Rican sees no improvement in electrical power or water service for MONTHS? Time to unmask the liars and the fakers. It is truth time. As all crisis is that. The Chinese proverb is right. Crisis is danger and opportunity. Both. And this is the opportunity to see what the USA's gov't real intention is towards Puerto Rico. If they renege on BILLIONS to rebuild? They have spoken.


I get that you are anti-statehood but how on earth does this disaster make it easier for puerto rico to strike out on it's own? The new country would be unimaginably impoverished.

The US has done an excellent job of making it dependent and leaving when it's at its peak of debt, depression, and devastation doesn't make it less dependent.

Certainly I support statehood, bailing the island out, throwing whatever resources we need to at this disaster, and otherwise improving PR's economy if that's what they wanted. And I would support them leaving if that's what they wanted.

I just don't see independence as a viable option for them.

Puerto Ricans pay taxes to the US government.

Puerto Ricans have no representation in the US government.

Taxation without representation.


The country should make me president and give me huge majorities in the house and senate. I'll give all our territories representation. Sadly till then I have to walk around with a clipboard and hope for the best.
#14848119
Pants-of-dog wrote:As long as we agree that the US supports taxation without representation.

It's only tyranny when e other guys do it, right? :excited:


As usual you win the micro wire splicing trophy good for you.

Tyranny I never said anything about that, I was just adding facts to your post which you conveniently omitted. No need to get upset. Now the fact that they get $21 billion in aide and probably only pay $4 billion in taxes takes the fake brass luster off of your argument attempt. You going with the race card next?
#14848124
The relationship between the US and puerto rico is far more complicated than the tax rate and aid. There are a variety of laws on the books, laws for which PR has no say in, which put them in a bad position.

Even disregarding those laws, based purely on principle, if PR is to be governed from washington then they should be granted representation in washington.

This isn't some micro wire splitting by PoD, it's a foundational principle of the United States.
#14848125
I am in favor of the status quo and if anything it should become more colonial. We should give more props to U.S. investors and Americans who want to settle there (I'm looking to see how I could make a buck by investing in the rebuilding). But lets get real, Independence would destroy the Puerto-Rican economy, and statehood would likely screw up ours and create serious civic instability among a divided and tense electorate. Viva La Empire!
#14848127
I get that you are anti-statehood but how on earth does this disaster make it easier for puerto rico to strike out on it's own? The new country would be unimaginably impoverished.

The US has done an excellent job of making it dependent and leaving when it's at its peak of debt, depression, and devastation doesn't make it less dependent.

Certainly I support statehood, bailing the island out, throwing whatever resources we need to at this disaster, and otherwise improving PR's economy if that's what they wanted. And I would support them leaving if that's what they wanted.

I just don't see independence as a viable option for them.


Look Mikema, climate change is upon us. These storms are getting bigger, more frequent and more powerful. Two cat 4 and 5 storms one after the other doling out direct hits is highly unusual. In fact it never has happened before. The current administration of the Trumpet man are climate deniers. They are. They are going to have to face the fact that Miami might not be able to recover if they get hit frequently with these heavy and powerful storms. So are all of the coastal cities on the planet. They need to realize they need to stop being idiots and start planning on dealing with climate change. Aggressively. But they are coal and fossil fuel and fracking promoters who are going to accelerate the problems. Not solve them. So? My solution is not to be voting for climate deniers and people who refuse to accept science regarding our planet.

The other solution is that the reason the Jones Act is problematic is that most of South America, the DR and Haiti and Cuba and many other little islands are close to US. Yet they can't send boats and supplies and other needed things to us because of the Jones Act. Venezuela and Colombia and Mexico announced they want to send us FUEL. They have to be allowed to do so by the USA government that fears that if they waived the act they would lose the ability to have a monopoly on the refineries and distribution centers and ports on the island. Ley de Cabotaje it is called. The major political parties on the island have discussed this in great detail. Mikema Venezuela is a very oil rich nation. They are in big trouble right now but want to help us with fuel. Why? Very strong cultural ties with South America. We know each other's songs, music, artists, politicians, we speak the same native language and so on....but.....we are not allowed to build relationships of commercial interest with them due to the laws made by USA politicians and their monopoly capitalists. It is that simple. Do you think Carmen cares about if the relief is from Colombia? Venezuela? Mexico or the Dominican Republic if it is for saving LIVES?
#14848128
Finfinder wrote:As usual you win the micro wire splicing trophy good for you.

Tyranny I never said anything about that, I was just adding facts to your post which you conveniently omitted. No need to get upset.


You seem to be getting mad.

I was obviously referring to the famous historical quote "Taxation without representation is tyranny!" which was instrumental in the US revolution. I assumed that you were USian and would have recognised this. I guess you are iether not from the Us, or are unfamiliar with US history.

Now the fact that they get $21 billion in aide and probably only pay $4 billion in taxes takes the fake brass luster off of your argument attempt. You going with the race card next?


Please provide evidence for your claim that PR receives that much money. Thanks.

Also, try not to get so emotional next time.
#14848129
Tainari88 wrote:POD, we get very little for what we contribute in terms of consumption and what the banks and businessmen make in Puerto Rico without being taxed by Uncle Sam.




We get screwed by bankers, the USA government, even the Puerto Rican veterans if they choose to live on the island get LESS than the veterans in the mainland. How do you justify that shit? Please tell me?



Would you say to a native Floridian or a native Texan? You need to leave Texas or Florida forever and just abandon it? It is destroyed by a hurricane. There is going to be a mass exodus out of Puerto Rico. Mostly young adults and children. About a quarter of the island lives off social security. Those won't leave. What Trump doesn't get is that if one million Puerto Ricans move to Jersey, Connecticut, New York and Florida and Atlanta Georgia they automatically can VOTE. And they won't vote for a tweeter who did not care about their lack of cell phone service in a crisis. The Republicans don't seem to understand that if all of the 3.5 million Puerto Ricans relocate to the USA and leave Puerto Rico behind because the congress did not decided to give them billions to rebuild Puerto Rico they are facing a mass exodus with VOTING RIGHTS in the next election. In swing states like Florida. Right now there are almost the same amount of Puerto Ricans in Florida as there are Cuban exiles and their native born Cuban children. And the Puerto Ricans are not conservative in voting blocks. Marco Rubio knows in order to get that future block of voters he needs to show up there NOW. The Republicans from the white nationalist incompetent school like Trump don't get it.


What exactly is your problem? I simply stated what aid gets sent to PR annually its a fact why is that so personal it true.

Seriously what exactly is your problem with the Jones Act it was waved for this. Tell me how US ships carrying cargo from the US has oppressed PR?
#14848130
Tainari88 wrote:POD, we get very little for what we contribute in terms of consumption and what the banks and businessmen make in Puerto Rico without being taxed by Uncle Sam.




We get screwed by bankers, the USA government, even the Puerto Rican veterans if they choose to live on the island get LESS than the veterans in the mainland. How do you justify that shit? Please tell me?



Would you say to a native Floridian or a native Texan? You need to leave Texas or Florida forever and just abandon it? It is destroyed by a hurricane. There is going to be a mass exodus out of Puerto Rico. Mostly young adults and children. About a quarter of the island lives off social security. Those won't leave. What Trump doesn't get is that if one million Puerto Ricans move to Jersey, Connecticut, New York and Florida and Atlanta Georgia they automatically can VOTE. And they won't vote for a tweeter who did not care about their lack of cell phone service in a crisis. The Republicans don't seem to understand that if all of the 3.5 million Puerto Ricans relocate to the USA and leave Puerto Rico behind because the congress did not decided to give them billions to rebuild Puerto Rico they are facing a mass exodus with VOTING RIGHTS in the next election. In swing states like Florida. Right now there are almost the same amount of Puerto Ricans in Florida as there are Cuban exiles and their native born Cuban children. And the Puerto Ricans are not conservative in voting blocks. Marco Rubio knows in order to get that future block of voters he needs to show up there NOW. The Republicans from the white nationalist incompetent school like Trump don't get it.


What exactly is your problem? I simply stated what aid gets sent to PR annually it is a fact, why are you taking it so personal its true.

Seriously what exactly is your problem with the Jones Act, it was waved for this. Tell me how US ships carrying cargo from the US has oppressed PR? BTW I live in the US and pay in and I don't get anything how do you justify that.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 9
Canadian Federal Election

@Finfinder comparing an embarrassing incident to[…]

Dr Joel Moskowitz, Public Health at UC Berkeley ht[…]

If one is looking for genocide in Syria, he/she s[…]

The report notes that several commentators have ar[…]