Puerto Rico's Relationship with the USA and the Jones Act and Hurricane Maria - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14852542
A lot of people in the US have no idea how the US has enforced capitalism at gunpoint in Latin America despite the wishes of the populace.


I know Pants of Dog. They don't study their own history in this side of the world. That is why it is imperative that in order to understand political and economic policy you must be very dedicated and take each nation's history independently and study it. In depth. If you see a pattern? Latch on to that. Follow the money. Like you have done. You followed the money with the video. There are loads of information of analysis of how the USA got rich off of Puerto Rico.

People who believe that the USA is prone to give out money and not expect anything in return really don't understand how nations in history get rich and powerful in the first place. They live with crap illusions about the Power of Myth that wealth is created by some magical shit formula that doesn't involve ripping working people off and owning and controlling banks, investments, real estate and using the gov't and the military to FORCE people into compliance.

It amazes me everyday that people really believe all this crap about "The Puerto Ricans themselves don't vote for statehood." The PNP was not founded by Puerto Ricans. It was cooked up in Washington DC by people scared shitless about losing control of the Caribbean islands and their golden egg nest of profits. Rich did you know the PNP pro statehood party was not founded by Puerto Ricans? You did not? Why not?

The PNP was founded by a Cuban exile who lost all his money when Fidel Castro kicked his ass out of Cuba and he became wealthy in Puerto Rico owning cement factories etc and feared not being able to free Cuba outside of Cuba without American conservative Republican minded help....so the Republican party cooked up a Cuban exile Right winger to found the Puerto Rican statehood party. Why would they do so? Why not an American white English speaking man? Because they needed someone Latino with impeccable Spanish and similar culture to sell it to the local island Puerto Ricans. And the local island Puerto Ricans were not going to accept a leader who was Anglo and spoke English and was not part of their culture or society as a leader of a political party on the island seeking local control.

Did you know that Rich?

Luis A. Ferre was the son of Cuban exiles. Half French and half Cuban and his father was involved in enginnering with the Panama Canal. His brother became a politician in Miami Florida. Ironically his daughter Rosario Ferre born and raised Puerto Rican is pro independence and disagreed with her father's political ideas. Mainly because she believes the USA is not interested in statehood.

All political history is worth studying.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 15 Oct 2017 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
#14852544
@Tainari88 The USA is losing it’s grip. So what? America doesn’t need global hegemony. It is a very fortunate nation with the world’s greatest expanse of agricultural land, and it is very distant from rival nations. Predictions for 2050 are USA in third place. That is among what 180 or so nations. It still looks pretty good.


Foxdemon who are you? British? Canadian? I have no idea. What I can tell you is that the Americans like all sour grapes ex Empires are going to grumbling that they might have to take third place in the world. That is blasphemous in the pantheons of American hegemony! Shame on you! Hablando mierda en contra de un futuro donde los EEUU es en el tercer lugar! Horror! :D :lol: Translation: "Talking shit against the future in which the USA is in third place?! Horror!

Pants of Dog, those figures are in the BILLIONS. Not millions. In Spanish we don't say billions. We say mil millones for billions. So those figures are in the billions of dollars. For example $8.2 Billion dollars in Spanish would be $8.2 thousand millions. Like that.
#14852568
Tainari88 wrote:Foxdemon who are you? British? Canadian? I have no idea.


No, no, not British, not Canadian.

What I can tell you is that the Americans like all sour grapes ex Empires are going to grumbling that they might have to take third place in the world. That is blasphemous in the pantheons of American hegemony! Shame on you! Hablando mierda en contra de un futuro donde los EEUU es en el tercer lugar! Horror! :D :lol: Translation: "Talking shit against the future in which the USA is in third place?! Horror!


It remains to been seen but it is likely China and will have bigger economies by then. China’s GDP has already past the USA in PPP terms. But yes, it is a matter of concern as to how they will react. Top dogs don’t like to lose their status.

The problem is the American leadership is a mess. That isn’t just because of Trump. It’s been coming for some time. As @Drlee points out, there is something wrong with American conservatism.

Here’s one explanation: https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/has-donald-trump-finished-conservative-thought-once-and-all

The author argues the right is intellectually bankrupt. There was a wave of neo-con/neo-liberals who pushed American global hegemony from the 1980’s while concentrating wealth. Then came the next wave, irrational popularism which saw the rise of the Tea Party and now Trump. There isn’t much in the way of old fashion conservative intellectualism around these days. At least it doesn’t have much impact in broader discourse.

I don’t think that is the full story. What happened to those intellectual conservatives? Going by my own country’s experience, they moved to the left. Donald Horne and Manning-Clark being two examples of Australian conservative thinkers who became left leaning over time. I’d say the same thing happened in America. So we have a centralist consensus of establishment left. @mikema63 is a good representative example.

Curiously, the neo-cons have been becoming increasing left leaning in the last few decades. Hillary is a neo-con after all. The problem with this is a lack of thinkers on the right leaves a broad section of the electorate available for an irresponsible rightwing, such as Trump. So the right has been progressively abandoned to ‘deplorables’.

What DrLee wants is a restoration of that old conservatism, based on thought rather than emotion. If I am correct that the problem is thinkers tend to align with left, well centralist positions, maybe some of them need to move to a more conservative position to bring the right wing back to reason. Certainly they will need to do that if they are to have any hope of adapting to the changing balance of power in the world.

I think a more responsible conservatism in America would make for a more effective government which would have served Puerto Rico better in crisis such as the recent hurricanes. You need to ask yourself @Tainari88 , who would you rather deal with? Someone like DrLee or someone like Trump or a neo-liberal?
#14852578
Curiously, the neo-cons have been becoming increasing left leaning in the last few decades. Hillary is a neo-con after all. The problem with this is a lack of thinkers on the right leaves a broad section of the electorate available for an irresponsible rightwing, such as Trump. So the right has been progressively abandoned to ‘deplorables’.

From my own point of view, it's hardly 'curious' that the neo-cons have become increasingly left-leaning (in their domestic policies at least) - reality, after all, has a left-wing bias. Lol. What I mean by that is that, from a purely pragmatic and rational point of view, the ruling elite of the US wishes to maintain its hegemonic status and its wealth. This means creating a stable social, economic and political system in the US. And this in turn means supplying the basic needs of the majority of the population; needs such as employment, health-care, infrastructure, &c. Increasingly, right-wing models of economics and social relations cannot supply those things, because of globalisation, the uncontrolled concentration of capital, and other factors. This means that even leading GOP figures advocate things like universal health care and the like. Obamacare actually became as Mitt Romney's pet project. Lol. The airheads on the populist right are doing their best to derail these pragmatic efforts on the part of the ruling elite, thereby endangering the stability of the entire system. This is why Trump's election as POTUS was greeted with horror on the part of the Republican establishment.

What DrLee wants is a restoration of that old conservatism, based on thought rather than emotion. If I am correct that the problem is thinkers tend to align with left, well centralist positions, maybe some of them need to move to a more conservative position to bring the right wing back to reason. Certainly they will need to do that if they are to have any hope of adapting to the changing balance of power in the world.

But why would they move back to the right? For the reasons I've outlined above, there is pressure on them from reality itself to move gradually leftwards, at least on economic and social policy, and there's no objective reason why that pragmatic move would reverse itself any time soon. This means that the vacuum on the right has been filled by irrational, emotion-driven bubbleheads like Trump, and that's not going to change any time soon. Lol.
#14852612
Potemkin wrote:From my own point of view, it's hardly 'curious' that the neo-cons have become increasingly left-leaning (in their domestic policies at least) - reality, after all, has a left-wing bias. Lol. What I mean by that is that, from a purely pragmatic and rational point of view, the ruling elite of the US wishes to maintain its hegemonic status and its wealth. This means creating a stable social, economic and political system in the US. And this in turn means supplying the basic needs of the majority of the population; needs such as employment, health-care, infrastructure, &c. Increasingly, right-wing models of economics and social relations cannot supply those things, because of globalisation, the uncontrolled concentration of capital, and other factors. This means that even leading GOP figures advocate things like universal health care and the like. Obamacare actually became as Mitt Romney's pet project. Lol. The airheads on the populist right are doing their best to derail these pragmatic efforts on the part of the ruling elite, thereby endangering the stability of the entire system. This is why Trump's election as POTUS was greeted with horror on the part of the Republican establishment.


But why would they move back to the right? For the reasons I've outlined above, there is pressure on them from reality itself to move gradually leftwards, at least on economic and social policy, and there's no objective reason why that pragmatic move would reverse itself any time soon. This means that the vacuum on the right has been filled by irrational, emotion-driven bubbleheads like Trump, and that's not going to change any time soon. Lol.



These are all good points. But it isn’t good for the traditional left to have the establishment right move into their ideological tuff.

Again using the Australian example, old Labor (they use the American spelling to piss off the English) was once a working class party. Labor leaders from the Chifley era would have got a nod of approval from POD’s hero, Allende. Alas, that old Labor has all but died out.

Over the same period that the right conservatives moved left, the Labor Party and union movement saw a replacement of old workers as leaders with university educated professional leaders. So the party moved to the right. The result was a middle ground political consensus that, while stable, has increasing failed to remain representative. This is a problem in a democracy based on universal sufferage.

So the left has also abandoned it’s constituents. Indeed the radical left, which has been thoroughly infiltrated, are now just brown shirts for the status quo establishment. While the workers have moved over to join the popular right.

It is an odd mix. I think it would have been better if Labor stayed Labor and conservatives stayed conservative. But then it is a tad conservative to say that.


Back to the issue of shifting geopolitical balances, the American system seems brittle. They need to loosen things up and accept the need for change. Otherwise they might find themselves in the same situation as 19th century China, unable to adapt and suffering a collapse in political and cultural authority. It is the greater powers that land hardest when they lose status.

Japan managed to change. Australia, as the most exposed Western nation to the rise of Asia, is changing. Asian values are sneaking in. Those values are building a new conservatism. Like Japan and other Asian countries in the 19th century were overshadowed by the West, Australia in the 21st century is facing life in the cultural shadow of Asia. We have to adopt the ideas that work while trying to retain something of our Western heritage. I guess that is a second wave of the cultural fusion that ‘made Asia great again’ (sorry, couldn’t resist). Asia took those ideas that worked from the West and fused them with their own heritage. Now the West must do the same in reverse.

So the future looks interesting. But will the Americans be able to make the transition? The bungling of crisis such as the natural disaster in the Caribbean does make America look like the same sort of ossified, decaying state that China appeared to be a bit over 100 years ago. Will they sink into the same dispair and melancholy as I perish China or will they rise to the challenge?
#14852620
The Americans need to sort themselves out and get over the power thing. What is needed is a responsible conservatism. At present American conservatism is as bubbleheaded as Western leftie PC nonsense. Possibly because they share in common the liberal thinking that is the foundation of Western ideological hegemony. American conservatives like @Drlee want to find their why back to where they were before. Giving up on empire is no easy thing.

Despondency, looking back to past glory, blaming others...this is not what America needs. They need to pull up their socks and stride boldly into the future.

Now, I’m sure you will take a critical view of my opinions. But Dr Lee and similar Americans are not bad people. I think we should be encouraging them to get up and make a go of it. Least those that aren’t so good get to have all the say.


Foxdemon I don't give a flying you-know-what about how the USA conservatives need to retain power and go back to a time of whatever. I just want them to pay us what they ripped off from us for 100+ years. Including my father delivering packages to Puerto Rican mothers filled with their sons last effects during all their dumb ass wars for power....I am not seeking the Puerto Rican Empire and invade half the damn world to squeeze them dry economically and militarily so that my hubris filled bullshit dreams of WORLD DOMINATION can come to fruition.

That is the issue with hard right and conservative thinking. They march in thinking somehow all this arrogant stuff is what all the people of the world aspire to if they had the chance. I don't. I want a small island-nation to come together and rebuild and do it right. Elon Musk offered advanced energy systems. Our Puerto Rican intellectuals, leaders, and etc. have talent and know how. They always have. With the help of many of our sister nations in many places in the world and other nations with resources partnering with us it can happen. Sovereignty is fundamental for all true control issues. For everyone. Small nations and large ones.

I am not interested in invading Guadaloupe or Honduras and subjugating the people there for Puerto Rican Empire. That shit never works over time in history. England lost nearly all of its once vast holdings and the reason is? ________________________. My conclusion? It doesn't work. People rebel because the colonizer is using power for its own gain at the expense of the other group. In time? It leads to conflict of interests. Instability. Rebellion and outright violence in most cases.

I was born in San Juan. My mother was born in Naranjito, my father in Bayamon. My grandparents in Barranquitas, Corozal, etc. for hundreds of years. For centuries. I am not interested in what happens after they let us go and be FREE with the USA. They have shown their true colors in this crisis. We are nothing to them. They don't give a fuck Foxdemon.

I am not going to be a hypocrite and pretend to care about the Republican party and its loss of control to a disruptive pendejo like Donald J. Trump....I really don't care. They embarrass themselves with their lack of intelligence. The man recently said he met the 'President' of the US Virgin Islands. The USVI doesn't have a president. They have a governor like we do. Doesn't he know this? The issue is he doesn't consider either the Virgin Islanders or Puerto Ricans true 'dyed in the wool Americans'. He does not. And he is not wrong. We are not white, we are not Anglo, our first language is not English and we have about 400 years of history before the Americans showed up. We speak Spanish because the Spaniards colonized us a long time ago and the Spanish controlled the island for centuries. Our DNA is about Spain, Western African peoples and Arawak Taino Indians and a lot of small bits and pieces of others on boats coming in and out from all over the world. It is not the history of the USA. It never has been. Why try to make us into something we can't be or should not be forced to become?

I am not interested in retaining my status as a USA citizen. Juan Mari Bras had to fight in court all the way to the SCOTUS to determine if he can determine if a Puerto Rican can declare himself Puerto Rican only. A Puerto Rican citizen. It was a long and expensive battle. The Courts in the end had to concede...yes we have the right. But the USA refused to allow Mari Bras to travel, hold a passport or to leave the island...or be accepted by other governments even as a tourist. The legal reasoning boils down to: "If we can't tell you who you should be? By golly no one else is going to have the right to interact with you."

I could care less about Anglo Americans and Anglo law and Anglo SHIT. It is horrible. All of the history they exhibit with Native Americans and African Americans and every group on that land there who are not the Eurocentric pendejos are considered NOT PART of the 'real' Americans.

They can fuck themselves Foxdemon. I just want us to be who we are. Humble, small and interracial people with zero history of foreign domination. I like our ways and our love of dancing, music, food preparation, tropical climate and literature and family life. I like our art, both painting, poetry, literature. I like our engineers and scientists and political historical figures. Our artists and architects. And the humble people too. The truck drivers and farmers and everything in between. No need to want the elixir of domination. It got the German Nazi Party in trouble...once they decided they had to invade foreign lands to win and to force their shit on the rest of the world? Is when they ran into trouble. I don't care about being involved in seeking that kind of hubris and BULLSHIT. And the conservatives are all like that. We are better than you. We are powerful. We need to impose. They never represent the ordinary working people. A bunch of assholes in my opinion. The working little people is the reason you can be rich...pendejos. My opinion. Take it or leave it. :) :lol:
#14852635
@Tainari88 the point is that they aren’t going to disappear. You will still have to deal with them. DrLee is easier to deal with than the alternatives.

Should you ignore them? Or could it be possible to influence the development of a more amiable establishment? I honesty don’t know how possible the later is, but that’s what we try to do. A number of other nations do that as well.

Anyway, up to you.
#14852641
These are all good points. But it isn’t good for the traditional left to have the establishment right move into their ideological tuff.

True, but them's the breaks. Lol.

Again using the Australian example, old Labor (they use the American spelling to piss off the English) was once a working class party. Labor leaders from the Chifley era would have got a nod of approval from POD’s hero, Allende. Alas, that old Labor has all but died out.

Something similar happened in most of the developed world too. Personally, I blame the Cold War. It fucked up politics throughout the world for a long time.

Over the same period that the right conservatives moved left, the Labor Party and union movement saw a replacement of old workers as leaders with university educated professional leaders. So the party moved to the right. The result was a middle ground political consensus that, while stable, has increasing failed to remain representative. This is a problem in a democracy based on universal sufferage.

Indeed. It has led to an ideological hollowing-out of politics, which in turn has made possible the rise of bubbleheaded nonentities like Donald Trump who claims to represent everything while actually representing nothing.

So the left has also abandoned it’s constituents. Indeed the radical left, which has been thoroughly infiltrated, are now just brown shirts for the status quo establishment. While the workers have moved over to join the popular right.

Only the populist right seems to have any gumption these days. Unfortunately, they're actually just as soft and squishy in the middle as any liberal consensus politician. The working class are going to be sorely disappointed with their new right-wing heroes. What they'll do once they realise they've been duped yet again is anybody's guess.

It is an odd mix. I think it would have been better if Labor stayed Labor and conservatives stayed conservative. But then it is a tad conservative to say that.

Agreed. But we are where we are.

Back to the issue of shifting geopolitical balances, the American system seems brittle. They need to loosen things up and accept the need for change. Otherwise they might find themselves in the same situation as 19th century China, unable to adapt and suffering a collapse in political and cultural authority. It is the greater powers that land hardest when they lose status.

It's unlikely that the US will suffer the same catastrophic collapse as Imperial China in the 19th century. it's more likely that they'll suffer a slow, progressive decline and become just another middle-ranking power. This has happened to many European nations, including Spain, France, Britain, Sweden and others.... It's just the way of things.

Japan managed to change. Australia, as the most exposed Western nation to the rise of Asia, is changing. Asian values are sneaking in. Those values are building a new conservatism. Like Japan and other Asian countries in the 19th century were overshadowed by the West, Australia in the 21st century is facing life in the cultural shadow of Asia. We have to adopt the ideas that work while trying to retain something of our Western heritage. I guess that is a second wave of the cultural fusion that ‘made Asia great again’ (sorry, couldn’t resist). Asia took those ideas that worked from the West and fused them with their own heritage. Now the West must do the same in reverse.

Indeed. In the first wave, the West (rather brutally) influenced Asia. Now the second wave is upon us, and Asia is (rather less brutally but no less insistently) influencing the West. We must adapt, or decline and die.

So the future looks interesting. But will the Americans be able to make the transition? The bungling of crisis such as the natural disaster in the Caribbean does make America look like the same sort of ossified, decaying state that China appeared to be a bit over 100 years ago. Will they sink into the same dispair and melancholy as I perish China or will they rise to the challenge?

So far, all the signs suggest that they are not up to the challenge of adapting to the new dispensation. Ultimately, this won't matter either way to anyone but the Americans. So, meh. :|
#14852646
@Tainari88 the point is that they aren’t going to disappear. You will still have to deal with them. DrLee is easier to deal with than the alternatives.

Should you ignore them? Or could it be possible to influence the development of a more amiable establishment? I honesty don’t know how possible the later is, but that’s what we try to do. A number of other nations do that as well.

Anyway, up to you.


Look Foxdemon, are you Australian? I am guessing you are. Anyway why did Australia decide to break away from the UK and the Crown? Just remain a prison colony of England, etc for all time. They are not going to disappear. Etc etc.

What can a prison colony do for itself? A lot apparently.

It is not up to me to decide. Puerto Ricans decide if they want to unite and fight or give up and die off. We are classified under the Department of the Interior which is the same federal department that the Native Americans and their reservations are classified under in the USA. That is telling. The first US appointed governors and reps on the island were military men from the USA. The first dude was an ex Indian fighter and the USA appointed the same 'military' men to Puerto Rico from 1898-1948 as they did to kill Indians in the USA plains, mountains and fields. It is not a mistake.

They sent Riggs in to fight with the Puerto Rican nationalists and massacred peaceful demonstrators in Ponce in the Great Depression. There was blood everywhere. Riggs the Cop Chief hated BLACKS. He came from the South and was a true Racist and wanted Puerto Ricans to follow Jim Crow laws. We did not. Too many centuries of indentured servant Spaniards who hated the Spanish crown having sex with African slave women and freed slave women and Indian descent people and producing a vast majority of mixed race people who never had to deal with Jim Crow and the American Civil War. The leader of the Puerto Rican nationalists was a mulatto man who was brilliant intellectually and led the fight for Puerto Rican independence. His name was Don Pedro Albizu Campos. In the end Riggs got his head blown off by some nacionalistas and they got 'mysteriously' murdered while under police protection. It got out of control and Roosevelt had to send in some form of 'control'.

It is a long history. No one really in the USA wants to learn about it. It is not flattering to the Yankee myths of freedom for all and justice and a bunch of crap that only they believe and no one else does.

I am going to put in Don Pedro Albizu Campos bio info here:

The PPD Luis Munoz Rivera and Luis Munoz Marin both admired the fiery mulatto nationalist Don Pedro. They did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Albizu_Campos

An interesting factoid there about him Foxdemon,
In his final exams for becoming an attorney the highest student achievement in the law school of Harvard University had to give the keynote speech to the entire graduating class and their invitees...the professor who delayed everything just could not stomach a mulatto Puerto Rican as the most 'brilliant' of all the graduates. He could not. Especially the one who spouted breaking away from the USA's control. So he just sat on the exam for weeks and refused to grade it so that he would not be able to address the crowd.

Fairness? Maybe not. But that is the problem right there. You never hear about that because that history is living in DARKNESS because it is as they say, "History is written by the Conquerers." Not by the defeated.

I happen to think that it is better to be living in truth than mired in lies made up to cover your own flaws. That is character. Not false narratives. I leave that to the Trumps of the world. Not for the Albizu Campos' of the world.

So far, all the signs suggest that they are not up to the challenge of adapting to the new dispensation. Ultimately, this won't matter either way to anyone but the Americans. So, meh. :|


So, meh. I kind of like that lack of enthusiasm. Hee hee hee Potemkin. :lol:
#14852662
So, meh. I kind of like that lack of enthusiasm. Hee hee hee Potemkin. :lol:

Lol. Sometimes, the only appropriate response is one of indifference, Tainari. The Americans like to think of themselves as the centre of the world, a shining light on a hill illuminating a benighted world. In reality, they are just one more asshole nation jostling against all the other asshole nations in the world. Maybe it's time they came to terms with that fact. ;)
#14852688
Foxdeamon said: Donald Horne and Manning-Clark being two examples of Australian conservative thinkers who became left leaning over time. I’d say the same thing happened in America. So we have a centralist consensus of establishment left. @mikema63 is a good representative example.


It did happen. In search of some sensible position to take. As you correctly point out, the right in the US has lost its intellectual component. Republicans don't "think". They emote. I wonder if Horne moved to the left or if the right left him behind. (That is how my experience feels to me by the way.) But Horne, Manning-Clark, Buckley and Goldwater and even, God forbid Thatcher "appeared" to move to the left as time passed. I think they actually did. Reflection on a life lived will do that to one.

Potemkin said: reality, after all, has a left-wing bias. Lol.


Well. You really didn't need the LOL. In the US this is objectively true. What is the modern republican right? It is a confederation if single-issue voters, embracing corporately, "values" that are, with two exceptions, based upon faith rather than evidence. Abortion for example. Clearly a religious argument. Same sex marriage. Clearly a religious issue. "American values". Clearly aimed squarely at the religious right. "Your religious freedom is under assault". Creationism/Intelligent Design. Same same. Racism/xenophobia. Feelings. American Exceptionalism....feelings completely unsupported by the facts. The right to keep and bear arms? An emotional desire for power and whatever may be reasonable arguments supporting the desire to own firearms intellectually sacrificed on an argument based upon its slippery-slope fallacy. Health care. Can we really believe that we are having this argument? I know our friends in the UK and Australia probably can't. In the face of incontrovertible evidence that outcomes, economies and satisfaction increase under universal systems today's right has stymied the facts with some nonsense about choosing one's doctor.

What two remain? The first is immigration. There are good arguments in favor of strict immigration enforcement on many levels. But that is not the point. Today's right is not making these arguments. It is playing on the emotional, often openly racist, sentiments shared by frightened people. About as close to an argument as one hears is "they" are taking our jobs"".

The second is lowering taxes. Of course a case can be made for lowering taxes. But the right is not making that argument. They are using the emotional (and factually incorrect) argument that the US has "the highest taxes in the world and that this is stifling business". And they are succeeding with this argument. And the irony is that they are making this argument not during an economic downturn but during a time of unprecedented growth.

So back to Pote's comment. How can this be? Just what you said. People who are by virtue of their education and intellect compelled to confront reality, based upon...well...reality can't embrace the nonsense being marketed (and I use this term deliberately) by the oligarchy that is forwarding it. Intelligent people can choose to act dumb but they have to own it. Unintelligent people face no such problem. They are easily led, blindly accept, being convinced by the most shallow of arguments wrapped in an emotional overlay.

So am I saying that "all modern conservatives" are dumb? No. The leaders know exactly what they are doing. They are leading the cattle. The followers? Yes. Unintelligent? Duped? Emotionally weak? Perhaps all of these or none. But to the person, frightened literally "out of their wits".

Should people like me stay in the party and try to nudge this juggernaut? I think so. Two reasons. First. Obviously we make some decent arguments and can sometimes affect change. It is more obvious on the local level where we can put the kibosh on some of the more outrageous moves. (For example thwarting attempts in my state to allow students to carry guns to class.) The other, and I believe most important reason, is to remain to clean up the mess once the feces hits the ventilator. So we keep pushing.

@Tainari88 the point is that they aren’t going to disappear. You will still have to deal with them. DrLee is easier to deal with than the alternatives.


And this is quite true. I am still a conservative. An old fashioned one. I am a social libertarian and fiscal conservative. I believe in constitutionalism but not strict original intent. You can count on me to keep the government out of your room and your womb. But there is a trade for this. I will insist that in trade you keep the government out of my church. I will not support profligate spending but I will support spending on important programs like education, infrastructure the environment and defense. As an old-time conservative, and as far as the government's role is concerned, I will be less likely to give someone a fish and more likely to teach them to fish. But I will pay for the lessons because conservatives of my ilk believe in action rather than platitudes. So folks like me will rebuild your country and pay the money to do it. We will rally behind our countrymen when they are in trouble. That is how we define patriotism. But when the dust settles we will insist on not only fixing what the US did out of greed but also what y'all did out of greed.

I've created another wall of text. But suffice it to say that foxdemon is dead right on this point (among others). The two examples he chose to represent traditional conservatives are true intellectuals. They are wonderfully educated thinkers. My two, Buckley and Goldwater do not have the academic credentials that Horne and Manning-Clark do but they are both recognized as highly intelligent and intellectually agile. Goldwater, as commander, integrated the Arizona Air National Guard two years before the rest of the US military did. Why? Because people of this caliber have to what makes sense. Even if it means that they move to the left in order to save the right.
#14852894
Dr. Lee, I don't trust conservatives. I don't. I don't trust them at all. To fix a damn thing politically. I dislike Buckley and Goldwater. Arrogant and who don't socialize with Blacks or anybody who doesn't speak or think like them. Don't trust latent racists. I don't.

The left leaning argument you and Foxdemon are engaged in is the natural progression of having to deal with a changing society. For me? Rightist thinking is always a bit obsolete. I think it has to do with being an excluding tendency culture. That over time creates tension and corruption in the end. Did you see Blackburn and the other Republican I forget his name who basically allowed an influx of Opiate pills by the millions to come in and not be 'flagged' by the DEA? And they do this for a pittance of $77k for campaign contributions. For the pharmaceutical industry that is a tiny fraction of their profits. Sellouts. All of them. Legal bribery and corruption. That is what the Republican party is filled with. Plus Bannon is an ex Goldman Sachs man. Yeah, he is a representative of the working class white people in the Republican ranks. I am not surprised by all this hypocrisy. It is the talisman of Republican dirt ball politics.

You will rebuild Puerto Rico? In the end Puerto Ricans need to stop relying on Imperial powers to 'give' them some breadcrumbing crap from the coffers. That is not going to work. Not over time. What should be done to all the territorial possessions is to let us go and give us a lot of money you ripped off from all of us and for the dead men and women you took from us to fight in your Imperial wars without having the decency to let us vote for who sends us in to die. That is shameful. Pay up and hopefully don't be control freaks and let us go our own way to live in our own way. Without others trying to come in and interfere. It is ironic, you guys (the USA political folk) interfered in the internal elections and politics of many nations. Now? All the rumours are that Russia interfered in yours. Karma is harsh aint it?
#14852912
Fin said: You think your existing government won't squander it. How is PR going to generate income come ?


The existing government is pandering to the colonial powers. Ricardo Rossello or "Ricky" is from the PNP party. His party has had corruption galore. They are a corrupt party with horrific admin deficits. But he doesn't contradict Trump even though you can tell by his face he absolutely was humiliated by the way Trump dealt with him and the other local leadership. He is scared shitless that if he doesn't pander to the powers that be he is going to lose his position. Knowing how asskissing the PNP people are? He is right.

But, if you study in depth how the internal Puerto Rican senate works---you realize that every program that is effective and that works is ripped off by the PNP (Ricardo Rossello's) party from the PIP. A tiny party filled with pro independence Puerto Ricans mainly from well off families who are great engineers, economists, lawyers, etc. They do this because the ones who are PIP senators and congresspeople are the ones who want a stronger economy in order to break away from the colonialism. The issue with the PNP is that in order to demand and strong arm the USA government into considering Puerto Rican needs FIRST above the needs and interests of the USA they need to be confrontational...and as obedient colonial puppets...they can't do that. It will cost them their seats. A problem you see with Republican idiots from the states that can't confront Trump or lose their positions. They are cowards Fin. If you are a coward...no right to lead your nation. Period. Pretty simple. :D
#14852928
Finfinder wrote:Can you be a little more specific. I assume you are an expert in this subject since you are Canadian.


What do you want to know?

Not only would PR keep making money, it would save millions of dollars by not having to pay all sorts of taxes and duties to the USA.
#14852935
@Tainari88

Forgive me but I'm not understanding the main point other than your hatred for Trump and Americans. Certainly these issue existed prior to 10 months ago when Trump became president and Democrats were in power. How will you not go back to exactly where you are now even if the entire slate is cleared ?


Fin, what are you asking? Didn't you read about how Puerto Rico was billed for their borrowing for government spending out of control? At exhorbitant rates of interest. The PNP ex governor Luis Fortuno was the man in charge at the time. The PNP is a total colonial puppet party that runs around in bed with shady banks and investors from the states who want a bunch of triple fudge tax free bonds and etc. It is effectively like taking out billions of dollars in loans from a payday outlet in the USA. You wind up paying a crazy rate of interest. I already put in that info. So did Wellsy the Aussie student who posted the other link to my thread about the debt. See it. Pants here translated the Spanish video with the Puerto Rican economist breaking down how the USA makes money off of Puerto Rico.

Have you seen Pants breakdown? Maybe you should go a few pages back and read and catch up on the back and forth.

About my hatred? I don't hate anyone. I do hate injustice. And to think the USA has been just with the Puerto Rican people is for fools. And I don't consider myself a fool.

Be just. And the resentment will 'disappear'. That is my reply to you Fin. You know the Golden Rule Fin? Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you? Can you apply that to the Puerto Ricans? Or are in such a fog of arrogance that you naturally think us not your equals and incapable of doing this or that?

Let me play devil's advocate? I come to your state of which you are a resident. I tell you....ok I am going to make you a part of the great state__________(Fin's state), your state won't have the right to vote in USA elections, you won't have voting senators or congresspeople even though your population is greater than 21 other states of the union. Your men will be eligible for the draft and can die in the wars created by congress....but you have no influence there to address your concerns. You shall pay taxes that are higher averaging between 20-40% than other states every time you have to import food from other states of the union but your own native crops, goods and services are not allowed equal access. And---Fin you speak English. The rest of the states don't. So? Stop speaking English and being an American, that is not acceptable. In order for you to be part of our great country got to give up your own culture in the process....after all it is not as good as ours....and also, you need to be GRATEFUL for this deal. Great deal isn't it? Kneel and kiss my feet and then kiss my ass for my benevolence Fin.

Why don't you like that deal? Are you full of hatred? ;)

Pants said: The same way it generates the billions of dollars it gives to the USA each year.


Exactly. But if you control your own economy and you don't have predatory capitalism involved? There are all kinds of great alternatives for small nations to be independent and have strong economies. The Caribbean region has had hurricanes for millenia and more...the word Hurricane comes from a Taino god by the name of "Yuracan" and was adopted into Spanish as huracan....and later into English as Hurricane. It is nothing new in terms of the islands. What is new is the incredible force of Cat 5 that is rare as hell and that it was a direct hit following the half hit of the first one. Cat 4 Irma. Two in a space of two weeks with that power? No, not normal. Climate change.

Fires in California, and Harvey, Irma, Jose, Maria, etc etc. That is not normal. That is out of the normal. But? No one wants to talk about climate change and the problems that is going to cause a lot of places. Droughts, earthquakes, loss of potable water sources in times of trouble because many easily accesible water systems are contaminated and polluted and not fit for mass human or animal consumption. And the climate denial folk like Trump wanting to destroy the EPA and other 'left' departments in the gov't.

Don't you know Pants, Puerto Ricans are in the top ten of the most consumers of USA goods in the world. They have been making money off of us for years. We are not allowed to buy cheaper petrol from South America. Even though it is far closer to us and far better price. We can't trade with Mexico, China, Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile, Panama, even neighboring islands like Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc because the USA won't allow it. We can't sell our pineapples in the mainland. It competes with Dole pineapples from Hawaii. Etc. A lot of strangling restrictions. But Fin doesn't see it. He just thinks we are what? Burdens without any value? That is what a lot of foolish people think. They don't study us at all. I happen to think it is because we are supposedly not important.

Lol. It if funny. USA Supreme Court law is 1/9th Puerto Rican. Sonia Sotomayor. Who's parents were Puerto Rican. We are a tiny place. We produce a lot of 'famous' people for our size. NASA has a big group of Puerto Ricans in the engineering departments there.

But we are shit in some of these people's mentalities....I wonder why? What is your theory Pants?

The following is for Fin:

Fin, I think I am going to have to ask you something did you know that all of these NASA astronauts, engineers and scientists were Puerto Ricans (either by descent or born in Puerto Rico?) or did you think we are an island full of total dummies? Because the patronizing tones you use with me lead me to believe you think we are what? I am really sick and tired of stateside people coming in to topics and assuming that what you see on the surface of these 'small' and supposedly 'insignificant' places there is nothing of value. All human beings of every nationality, creed and race have innate value and potential. ALL OF US. And talented people. I think you need to start respecting that fact.

Read this and come back here and tell me that if we can produce people who know how to navigate the stars that we can't produce people who can solve our gov't and economic woes? I have faith in Puerto Ricans.

You should too. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... ce_Program
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