Mexico Elects a Socialist in a Landslide - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties from Mexico to Argentina.

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#14929446
Potemkin wrote:Human labour under capitalism is, as Marx pointed out, alienated labour. Instead of being experienced as the main purpose of a productive human life and as the main means of living a fulfilled human life within human society, it is experienced as unpleasant drudgery and a form of enslavement to an external force over which the workers have no control - capital. Of course workers hate their jobs in a capitalist system.


People hate their jobs in Socialist countries also. It is only under ideal Socialism this is assumed not to happen. Yes, if people own companies, they don’t mind working. This can be accomplished under many ideal systems including regulated capitalism.
#14929449
One Degree wrote:People hate their jobs in Socialist countries also. It is only under ideal Socialism this is assumed not to happen. Yes, if people own companies, they don’t mind working. This can be accomplished under many ideal systems including regulated capitalism.

Yet you have assumed the 'slavery' part of wage slavery from the outset as being a 'natural' part of all human labour, rather than as something unnecessary and undesirable. You are taking the distortions of human society and human relations produced by the capitalist system as being part of nature rather than side-effects of a particular system of political economy. You seem to be unable to think beyond the horizons of the capitalist system.
#14929450
One Degree wrote: It is only under ideal Socialism this is assumed not to happen.
:roll: :lol: Socialism is not about ignoring reality. Where do you get such delusions? Very few people love , or even like their jobs. The only thing keeping most people at work is payment, and the need for money.

Most people who win big lotteries quit their jobs. Very few love their jobs enough to stay on. That's a reality, and your figure of 85% of people not liking their jobs, is irrelevant. Most people don't want to make less than minimum wage and stay on Welfare, because it sucks ass, and you cannot "get ahead" and a great many other things. That's why people work.

One Degree wrote:This can be accomplished under many ideal systems including regulated capitalism.
Capitalism regulated by socialism works. You have a great many Democratic Socialist countries that prove such(Canada, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, etc.), and have as high, or higher standards of living, and quality of life than the USA.

Capitalism needs regulation. That's where socialism comes in.
#14929454
Potemkin wrote:Yet you have assumed the 'slavery' part of wage slavery from the outset as being a 'natural' part of all human labour, rather than as something unnecessary and undesirable. You are taking the distortions of human society and human relations produced by the capitalist system as being part of nature rather than side-effects of a particular system of political economy. You seem to be unable to think beyond the horizons of the capitalist system.


Perhaps, but it appears Socialism and capitalism both depend upon the individual’s ‘sense of ownership to fulfill individual needs’. They both fail if the individuals do not make the connection as themselves as owners. They will dislike the work in any system they don’t see an ownership in.
#14929457
One Degree wrote:Perhaps, but it appears Socialism and capitalism both depend upon the individual’s ‘sense of ownership to fulfill individual needs’. They both fail if the individuals do not make the connection as themselves as owners. They will dislike the work in any system they don’t see an ownership in.

In other words, they will dislike the work if they feel alienated from it and from the products of their labour. I'm glad to see that you agree with Marx on this issue. :up:
#14929458
@One Degree there is a balance where you can have socialism and democracy, and still have equality, freedom, etc. Most countries I mentioned in my last post, do exactly that. People fearing socialism mostly don't understand it.

Everything in moderation...
#14929461
Potemkin wrote:In other words, they will dislike the work if they feel alienated from it and from the products of their labour. I'm glad to see that you agree with Marx on this issue. :up:


I have always said ‘local socialism’ was appealing. To get 300 million people to work for government owned companies is too far for most people to believe in any actual ownership. Again, it is not the ideology but the numbers of people and heirarchy that removes a sense of ownership. Any system can be just as successful as another on a small scale where ownership is obvious.
#14929462
I see @One Degree doesn't like arguing when facts are involved.

Noemon Edit: Rule 2
Last edited by noemon on 02 Jul 2018 15:32, edited 1 time in total. Reason: User warned
#14929463
One Degree wrote:https://returntonow.net/2017/09/22/85-people-hate-jobs-gallup-poll-says/

85% of workers worldwide hate their jobs according to Gallup.


People hate their jobs because they're overworked and underpaid and because they have no control over management and production, not because they're lazy. I love how some people think the upper classes must be incentivized to produce with promise of wealth and privilege but the lower classes have to be threatened with destitution and dispossession. The upper class gets carrots and the working class gets the stick.
#14929464
So true. The so-called "market" are all those uneducated people making decisions for their own benefit.
Under the guiding principle of true Socialism there ought to be a political class of those who truly are
the wise and gifted who work tirelessly for the benefit of society. Kind of like the Mandarins of ancient
China. Democracy can't be a market of ideas, it needs to be guided by those who know best.
#14929465
Capitalism does not exist; the concept is an example of communist failure to understand history, particularly history of industrialization. :p

Similarly Marx's assertion that "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles" is also false.
#14929506
Sivad wrote:Mexico is the lowest taxed country in the OECD, so it could fund a lot more social programs if it raised taxes. But it can't raise taxes as long as the entire developing world is locked into the neoliberal race to the bottom. Countries like Mexico are pretty much at the mercy of the global neoliberal financial cartel.

Mexico's personal income tax rate is 35%. Its corporate income tax rate is 30%.

Sivad wrote:What Chavez did in Venezuela was just ignorant, Mexico doesn't have to follow that path.

When dealing with socialists, we aren't just dealing with stupid. Chavez and his ilk are theives. Egalitarianism ultimately questions private property and seeks redistribution. Ostensibly, it's not theft or corruption if you get the state to do it.

Sivad wrote:Mexico could invest in infrastructure and increase social spending gradually over time as the economy grows with increasing development.

Now we're in the realm of posssibilities. What they will do is a separate question. If I were Trump, I would campaign for higher wages for workers at American manufacturers in Mexico to make their lives more difficult when outsourcing.

Godstud wrote:Socialism isn't a bad thing.

So why don't you move your family to Venezuela?

Godstud wrote:Trump lies, almost constantly. Relying on him for facts would be a big mistake, and even quite foolish.

He is the president of the United States. It is still important to know what he is saying.

Atlantis wrote:Good, I hope Lopez Obrador hates Trump enough to ask Putin to build a Russian military base in Mexico.

That would be cool. It would force the construction of the wall.

Sivad wrote:Most people don't need to be pressured to work, most people work their asses off regardless of the economic system. Socialism isn't giving people free shit for nothing, it's people demanding a fair return on their labor.

The welfare state pays people so they do not have to do unpleasant jobs, like harvesting crops.

Godstud wrote:@One Degree Your belief that people need pressure to work, is simply a belief. Do you have ANY facts to support this?

I know a great many people who enjoy work, if they are doing what they like, or there is good pay, or other benefits. We do, after all, mostly do not work for free, so you can't say there isn't any incentive to work. Incentive is not "pressure".

You claim to be retired in your 40s. Warren Buffet is in his 80s and still working. You obviously hit your comfort point quite a bit earlier than Warren Buffet.

Godstud wrote:Capitalism regulated by socialism works. You have a great many Democratic Socialist countries that prove such(Canada, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, etc.), and have as high, or higher standards of living, and quality of life than the USA.

All of these societies are comprised primarily of Northern European populations, where there is a high IQ attributed in part to conforming to social expectations. Anthropologically, the history of people from these regions is that they MUST defer to delayed gratification in order to survive. That is a possible reason that social welfare states have abysmal track records in other parts of the world. Socialism assumes that all people are equal.

All of these theoretical conversations are meaningless. What is meaningful is what AMLO will do when he assumes the presidency in 5 months time. So we're probably about 2.5 years away from seeing any meaningful policy changes.

Trump is a US nationalist. As I said before, if I were Trump I would demand American companies pay higher wages for their Mexican AND American workers, with a stronger emphasis on the former to make it less attractive to move to Mexico while currying favor with the Mexican working class.
#14929517
blackjack21 wrote:Mexico's personal income tax rate is 35%. Its corporate income tax rate is 30%.


tax to GDP is only 17%( the OECD average is 34%).


Now we're in the realm of posssibilities. What they will do is a separate question


We all know how it's gonna go. My point was only that it's feasible.
#14929522
What an amusing turn of events for Mexico!

If they go full-on socialist they really will pay for the wall because like East Germany they will need to build it to keep their people in!

:lol:
#14929674
Blackjack21 wrote:So why don't you move your family to Venezuela?
Why don't you shove your head up your ass? Venezuela is no longer a socialist country, but a dictatorship, which is the main problem. Venezuela went from a socialist democracy to a dictatorship, and that's where the problems lie. I wouldn't expect some from your trailer-park to understand that though, since you're too hung up on comparing Communism to Socialism, without knowing what either is.
#14929720
SolarCross wrote:Replacing paid labour with slave labour is hardly an improvement, that's all you get with communism. Getting paid is the one thing which makes unpleasant work worth doing.

Debt slavery is the condition of most people living in capitalist-run countries. They are indebted both via the state (big borrower from private banksters) and from personal debt (as they try to catch up to the images of wealth they see in capitalist media).

that's all you get with communism


Well, no. The most important thing you get with communism (or socialism to the max) is that the profit motive is no longer what drives production. When this happens, production of consumer goods can decrease substantially, and the basics of life can be made attainable to all.

Replacing capital-accumulation (into fewer and fewer hands)... with social planning of the economy (with today's knowledge of environmental limits and the uselessness of upper class lifestyles)... is probably all that can save us from extinction.

Capitalism is walking us right up to extinction with Mickey Mouse ears on our head.

Godstud wrote:Venezuela went from a socialist democracy to a dictatorship,

Maduro was elected. Just because America's capitalist class doesn't like him, doesn't make him a dictator.

And America actually gives military aid to 70% of the world's dictators, so "not liking Maduro " has nothing to do with him being a dictator. I'm sort of saddened that you seem to follow trends without being able to see through them.
Last edited by QatzelOk on 03 Jul 2018 05:49, edited 1 time in total.
#14929726
Godstud wrote:Why don't you shove your head up your ass? Venezuela is no longer a socialist country, but a dictatorship, which is the main problem. Venezuela went from a socialist democracy to a dictatorship, and that's where the problems lie. I wouldn't expect some from your trailer-park to understand that though, since you're too hung up on comparing Communism to Socialism, without knowing what either is.

It seems someone has some anger management issues.

Proponents of socialism always claim that the failure of socialism is due to other factors. In this case, dictatorship seems to be the "problem." The reality is that any philosophy that requires universal adherence is doomed to fail. Socialism isn't just fragile, but essentially impossible.
#14929727
SolarCross wrote:Replacing paid labour with slave labour is hardly an improvement, that's all you get with communism. Getting paid is the one thing which makes unpleasant work worth doing.

The communist wants to fix "wage slavery" by chopping off the wages part and doubling down on the slavery part.


I confess that I know almost nothing about politics and ideologies, but should I be taking advice from someone who has this person as his avatar? Like - not cool! ;)

Image
#14929729
I love AMLO's interviews in Spanish. He doesn't beat around the bush. The best descriptions of his challenges with dealing with his two big campaign promises was a Mexico City professor who was brilliant. Too bad I can't post it from.my.phone. But I will later. AMLO has six years to accomplish a lot. The old Tabascan widower...will.be great to watch.
#14929776
Paddy14 wrote:I confess that I know almost nothing about politics and ideologies, but should I be taking advice from someone who has this person as his avatar? Like - not cool! ;)

Says someone with a Che "firing squad" Guevara avatar, :roll: :lol: :knife:

Nothing a communist says is worth a damn, it should all be ignored. "Mao is cool but Pinochet is bad" communist creatures are disgusting liars, hypocrites, mass murderers, imbeciles and enemies of humanity. In the modern world the fastest way to sainthood should be to kill a communist.
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