Updates on Puerto Rico 2019: USA response to crisis emphasizes how bad the relationship is! - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15016518
Well people it has been a couple of years since Hurricanes Irma and Maria rocked the island of Puerto Rico and still things have not changed much. How much longer will Puerto Ricans have to wait to realize that the USA SUCKS and is not treating Puerto Ricans as equal citizens of their nation and it is time to break away and try something new?

What is the solution? All of the remaining Puerto Ricans moving to the mainland and forgetting to live on their own ancestral lands? That smacks of total failure on economic, social and political terms to me.

Time to seriously realize the myth of "America can be relied upon by Puerto Rico to be fair and to help out in times of trouble is over." That is a lie. Many nations would never tolerate one year without power and restoring power by law to only a bad and inefficient state because corruption that is controlled by the mainland is running rampant. No. Whitefish and other bullshit has happened. It is time Puerto Ricans woke up and realized? The USA is not about being responsible. It is about selfish, corrupt, low life pieces of trash exploitation in cahoots with corporations and banks to destroy all our schools, hospitals, clinics, public universities and to take over our island for a tax shelter haven for the wealthy and to hell with the regular people living there for generations. It is time to stop believing in lies and myth and accept reality and be pro active in changing it.

I already made my life decision for changes. It is time every Puerto Rican look deep in their heart and make the required reality checks and take action. It is literally a watershed moment and it is time to realize....do I want to live with this sick and dysfunctional bad colonial relationship that is destroying all Puerto Ricans on the island's standard of living and future for their children? Or do I want a new life and a new day on the island? All Boricuas should start their own reckoning process and find a solution. Staying with the same crap situation is not a solution.

#15016651
Maybe if there weren't so many thieving bastards down there things would've been better...

https://www.spartareport.com/2018/01/was-puerto-ricos-prepa-caught-stealing-and-hoarding-reconstruction-supplies/
#15016654
BigSteve wrote:Maybe if there weren't so many thieving bastards down there things would've been better...

https://www.spartareport.com/2018/01/was-puerto-ricos-prepa-caught-stealing-and-hoarding-reconstruction-supplies/


My girlfriend's Puerto Rican and she says Puerto Ricans need to stop whining and get their shit in order...
#15016661
Tainari88 wrote:Well people it has been a couple of years since Hurricanes Irma and Maria rocked the island of Puerto Rico and still things have not changed much. How much longer will Puerto Ricans have to wait to realize that the USA SUCKS and is not treating Puerto Ricans as equal citizens of their nation and it is time to break away and try something new?


There are many parts in the mainland USA that also suck. The success of a given area in any part of the world including the USA has to do with the quality of the citizens that occupy that area. There is a reason why Japan, South Korea, Germany, Singapore, Sweden, etc have a high standard of living. On the average these are nations where people work hard, are productive, and are much better educated to make better decisions. Nations may need help, but in the long run they have make it on their own.

Surw, PR is a colony, but it had a better standard of living than in most of Latin America. And sadly the idea that the Americans were supposed to take care of them created a situation of dependence.


What is the solution? All of the remaining Puerto Ricans moving to the mainland and forgetting to live on their own ancestral lands? That smacks of total failure on economic, social and political terms to me.


Yep, that is why most poor people in the entire world want to migrate to Europe, Canada, USA, or Australia. Why is that?

I already made my life decision for changes. It is time every Puerto Rican look deep in their heart and make the required reality checks and take action. It is literally a watershed moment and it is time to realize....do I want to live with this sick and dysfunctional bad colonial relationship that is destroying all Puerto Ricans on the island's standard of living and future for their children? Or do I want a new life and a new day on the island? All Boricuas should start their own reckoning process and find a solution. Staying with the same crap situation is not a solution.


Puerto Ricans are the only nationality in Latin America that could not achieve independence. Even Haiti, the poster nation for 3rd world status achieved independence. Perhaps no one had the guts to fight.
#15017636
Maybe Juilan the USA has killed the many who did fight. Because the only nation who values independence for themselves and wants slavery and colonialism to continue into the 21st century is the USA. Who spout they respect the popular vote and they put in presidents who don't have the popular vote. Who say they don't want to interfere in other nation's right to self determination but instead intervene in other people's governments trying to manipulate things in their favor.

Get your crap contradictions in order before you open your mouth to say things you know nothing about. No one fought? Yeah, why don't you figure it out.

#15017688
Tainari88 wrote:Maybe Juilan the USA has killed the many who did fight. Because the only nation who values independence for themselves and wants slavery and colonialism to continue into the 21st century is the USA. Who spout they respect the popular vote and they put in presidents who don't have the popular vote. Who say they don't want to interfere in other nation's right to self determination but instead intervene in other people's governments trying to manipulate things in their favor.

Get your crap contradictions in order before you open your mouth to say things you know nothing about. No one fought? Yeah, why don't you figure it out.



Unfortunately powerful nations in world history try to conquer others and expand their territory. That is the history of the world. USA came late to the party and could not be like England or Spain. Nevertheless, today it remains a powerful nation and that is what powerful nations do. China is now a colonial power in Africa. The Incas terrorized others because they were powerful. Japan invaded Korea and treated Koreans worse than Hitler treated the Jews,

It is useless to whine about the past. If PR wants the independence all it has to do is ask. The USA will gladly get rid of that hot potato.
#15017865
Julian658 wrote:Unfortunately powerful nations in world history try to conquer others and expand their territory. That is the history of the world. USA came late to the party and could not be like England or Spain. Nevertheless, today it remains a powerful nation and that is what powerful nations do. China is now a colonial power in Africa. The Incas terrorized others because they were powerful. Japan invaded Korea and treated Koreans worse than Hitler treated the Jews,

It is useless to whine about the past. If PR wants the independence all it has to do is ask. The USA will gladly get rid of that hot potato.


Do you really think the USA is going to remain a powerful nation with its national debt the way it is right now? And wasting all their money that they should be investing in crumbling infrastructure and in improving life for the shrinking middle classes in the USA on wars and keeping corporations in the money and happy at the expense of the common good? Dream on Julian. The USA is not going to remain a superpower at all. It will with its love affair of pandering to corporations and being ruled by invisible hands of greed market forces, are going to lose all positions of influence and power, and is being right now, outplayed by a bunch of nations who don't care how many myths the USA tells its gullible masses, they are manipulating for themselves but are far more intelligent than the USA government is about their own priorities. Intelligent statespeople running nation states don't allow corporations and markets to overrun their political systems in their favor and trample on state power to the point of destroying any semblance of common principles of representative democratic governments. But the USA is doing that. It is choosing to screw itself. In time that is the only possible result of that obtuse, arrogant and imperialistic and narrow thinking. Losing power. I won't be crying over it. I am not part of it anymore. I don't want any part of some dumb policies suited to some billionaires and everyone else is screwed. I don't think it is sound.

As for Puerto Rico asking for its independence? Are you kidding me? If you think the electoral college doesn't even respect the USA citizens rights to their choice for president of the USA through a popular vote and they IGNORED it due to the way it is set up--what makes you think they will respect some Puerto Ricans who might vote for independence or statehood? What motivation do they have to respect democracy? They aren't doing it right now in their own country so why do it with a possession?

I happen to think the USA has a lot of powerful banks making a whole lot of money off of Puerto Rico. Didn't you hear what some of those Puerto Rican leaders said in the The Last Colony film? They want Puerto Rico to only buy from the USA and use the USA merchant marine (the most expensive one in the world) to import USA products because they are getting rich off of Puerto Ricans. Many Puerto Rican economists like Rosario Rivera stated that the USA over years has made a lot of profit off of exclusive trade rights with Puerto Rico. They are NOT giving it up. For what? Some cheap ideas you might have Julian about the Puerto Ricans want the independence of statehood option. To hell with that, they think...we want to give them shit instead.

If you do that long enough Julian don't come crying to me when the Puerto Ricans move to your hometown in thousands and don't speak English and work or get on welfare and vote against some Tea Party Republican shit agenda. Don't moan. Just accept the consequences as part of being a bunch of lying rats who can't even stick to their own republican, democratic principles and are part of the reason why other nations can't make things work and are forcing out a bunch of their people. It will become your problem whether you like it or not. Not understanding why anymore won't be an excuse for you.
#15017866
Finfinder wrote:Na Na Na...... Na Na Na Na..... Hey Hey Hey Goodbye !


You are still sore about losing debates terribly and facing the truth about your lack of understanding of what makes thing happen.

Lol. I don't give a hell about your opinion Finn. I never have. :D :lol:

You are still upset over losing in my Hurricane Maria thread...try to get over it Finn...here is a video for you in Spanish it is entitled "Lloraras", it means you shall cry. That is what you are a person who cries when they lose. Hee hee hee

Last edited by Tainari88 on 13 Jul 2019 19:13, edited 2 times in total.
#15017869
Tainari88 wrote:Well people it has been a couple of years since Hurricanes Irma and Maria rocked the island of Puerto Rico and still things have not changed much. How much longer will Puerto Ricans have to wait to realize that the USA SUCKS and is not treating Puerto Ricans as equal citizens of their nation and it is time to break away and try something new?


Has the independence movement in Puerto Rico become greater since the Hurricanes?
#15017918
Tainari88 wrote:You are still sore about losing debates terribly and facing the truth about your lack of understanding of what makes thing happen.

Lol. I don't give a hell about your opinion Finn. I never have. :D :lol:

You are still upset over losing in my Hurricane Maria thread...try to get over it Finn...here is a video for you in Spanish it is entitled "Lloraras", it means you shall cry. That is what you are a person who cries when they lose. Hee hee hee



Here is my music selection you can listen while you read. It's called Don't let the Door Hit You. It means Don't Let the door hit you. Classic blues :D




Were you having problems sitting there in Colorado or wherever you are getting people to listen to your bigoted vitriol, and anti- American whining? I just figured I’d give you the attention you so desperately desire. It’s no wonder how you feel,you turned your back on your own people and now you’re going to do the same here and no one will listen to your problems. With any luck maybe the Mexicans will be able to stand to have you. I say…. do you need any assistance packing,I have a lot of extra boxes you can have?



FBI Arrests Former Top Puerto Rico Officials In Government Corruption Scandal

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/11/74059617 ... on-scandal


U.S. authorities have unsealed a corruption indictment against two former top officials in Puerto Rico for directing some $15.5 million in contracts to favored businesses, allegedly edging out other firms for the lucrative government work despite allegations of being unqualified.

The two former Puerto Rico leaders — Julia Keleher, who was the secretary of the island's department of education before stepping down in April, and Ángela Ávila-Marrero, who led Puerto Rico's Health Insurance Administration until last month — were arrested by FBI agents on Wednesday.

Prosecutors wrote in the indictment that the conspiracy involved the two former public officials handing four associates who had an inside track to contracts.

Once secured, authorities say the contractors benefited by paying "unauthorized commissions" to other individuals to lobby government for more contracts, a dynamic authorities described as "a corrupt bidding process."

At a press conference in San Juan, U.S. Attorney for Puerto Rico Rosa Emilia Rodríguez-Vélez elaborated.

"Both Keleher and Ávila-Marrero took advantage of their privileged positions as agency chiefs. They defrauded the U.S. and Puerto Rican governments," Rodríguez said.

Federal authorities also arrested and charged Glenda Ponce-Mendoza and Mayra Ponce-Mendoza, who are sisters who worked as education consultants; Fernando Scherrer Caillet, an executive at the auditing firm BDO; and consultant Alberto Velázquez Piñol. The 32-count indictment accuses the defendants of charges including wire fraud, theft and money laundering.

The charges related to steering lucrative government contracts to business friends come at a politically sensitive time for the island's government, which has been trying to project a polished and competent image of themselves to Congress as island leadership expect to receive billions of dollars in recovery aid to help rebuild after Hurricane Maria.

The approved aid was delayed after Washington lawmakers squabbled about how much the island deserves after the hurricane killed nearly 3,000 people and caused billions of dollars in damage.

Word of the charges rocked the political establishment in Puerto Rico and cut short the European vacation of Gov. Ricardo Rosselló, who immediately booked a flight home.

And although Rosselló was not directly implicated in the criminal probe, Arizona Rep. Raúl Grijalva, who is the chair of the Natural Resources Committee that oversees Puerto Rico, called on Rosselló to resign.

"The Puerto Rican people deserve a government that takes public service seriously, that's transparent and accountable, and that doesn't let this happen in the first place," Grijalva said in a statement.

Félix Córdova, a political analyst who teaches at the University of Puerto Rico, said the corruption scandal reveals a troubling reality on the island.

"No one is proud of the corruption. It has demoralized Puerto Ricans," Córdova told NPR.

And yet, Córdova said many island residents were not entirely surprised by the charges.

Faced with a dismal economy and budget cuts that have eliminated some basic services, government has hired private companies to carry out health care and educational services.

Privatizing public services introduces a profit motive, said Córdova, who argues that such a scenario makes conditions ripe for corruption.

Trump has said that Puerto Rico has received more federal aid than other states hit with natural disasters, such as Texas and Florida, and has repeatedly questioned sending relief aid to the island over fears that government leaders would mismanage the funds.

"The people of Puerto Rico deserve true leadership and Federal disaster support that helps them the most — not the politicians who have used disaster spending as a political platform to further their own agendas," according to a White House statement released in April.
#15017937
Tainari88 wrote:Do you really think the USA is going to remain a powerful nation with its national debt the way it is right now? And wasting all their money that they should be investing in crumbling infrastructure and in improving life for the shrinking middle classes in the USA on wars and keeping corporations in the money and happy at the expense of the common good? Dream on Julian. The USA is not going to remain a superpower at all. It will with its love affair of pandering to corporations and being ruled by invisible hands of greed market forces, are going to lose all positions of influence and power, and is being right now, outplayed by a bunch of nations who don't care how many myths the USA tells its gullible masses, they are manipulating for themselves but are far more intelligent than the USA government is about their own priorities. Intelligent statespeople running nation states don't allow corporations and markets to overrun their political systems in their favor and trample on state power to the point of destroying any semblance of common principles of representative democratic governments. But the USA is doing that. It is choosing to screw itself. In time that is the only possible result of that obtuse, arrogant and imperialistic and narrow thinking. Losing power. I won't be crying over it. I am not part of it anymore. I don't want any part of some dumb policies suited to some billionaires and everyone else is screwed. I don't think it is sound.


All empires come to an end. The next one in line will probably be China. And if China is in charge you will long for the good old days with the USA. You sound a bit like a socialist and I can see your hatred for the USA and capitalism. Good luck with that: Capitalism has raised the standard of living to such a point that the poor in Puerto Rico and the USA are obese. When in world history did you see obese poor people??? :?: :?: :?: But, there is more: The poor people do not have to work; they get free cash form the government. And yet they complain.


As for Puerto Rico asking for its independence? Are you kidding me? If you think the electoral college doesn't even respect the USA citizens rights to their choice for president of the USA through a popular vote and they IGNORED it due to the way it is set up--what makes you think they will respect some Puerto Ricans who might vote for independence or statehood? What motivation do they have to respect democracy? They aren't doing it right now in their own country so why do it with a possession?


If PR asks for independence they will get it right away. If PR asks for statehood they will not get it. Why? Because PR has a larger population than 28 states in the mainland. This will mean an avalanche of AOC socialist types in congress and two extra left wing senators. Why do you think they always deny statehood for the District of Columbia? That would be two extra SJWs socialist senators. Who in the world wants that?


I happen to think the USA has a lot of powerful banks making a whole lot of money off of Puerto Rico. Didn't you hear what some of those Puerto Rican leaders said in the The Last Colony film? They want Puerto Rico to only buy from the USA and use the USA merchant marine (the most expensive one in the world) to import USA products because they are getting rich off of Puerto Ricans. Many Puerto Rican economists like Rosario Rivera stated that the USA over years has made a lot of profit off of exclusive trade rights with Puerto Rico. They are NOT giving it up. For what? Some cheap ideas you might have Julian about the Puerto Ricans want the independence of statehood option. To hell with that, they think...we want to give them shit instead.


I am certain there is money to be made. That is the idea of colonialism. But, PR never moved ahead like Hawaii and Alaska. Why?

If you do that long enough Julian don't come crying to me when the Puerto Ricans move to your hometown in thousands and don't speak English and work or get on welfare and vote against some Tea Party Republican shit agenda. Don't moan. Just accept the consequences as part of being a bunch of lying rats who can't even stick to their own republican, democratic principles and are part of the reason why other nations can't make things work and are forcing out a bunch of their people. It will become your problem whether you like it or not. Not understanding why anymore won't be an excuse for you.


I am disgusted by your low opinion of Puerto Ricans. I have known many and they are decent hard working people. You seem to think they are just like that herd of people marching to the Mexico USA border. Shame on you! Furthermore, your view of them suggest you think they cannot make it on their own. You believe they need someone to hold their hands. That is how blacks in America have been treated and they now are in a state of total dependence.
#15017962
Julian658 wrote:All empires come to an end. The next one in line will probably be China. And if China is in charge you will long for the good old days with the USA. You sound a bit like a socialist and I can see your hatred for the USA and capitalism. Good luck with that: Capitalism has raised the standard of living to such a point that the poor in Puerto Rico and the USA are obese. When in world history did you see obese poor people??? :?: :?: :?: But, there is more: The poor people do not have to work; they get free cash form the government. And yet they complain.


The ones getting a whole universe full of free government bailouts were all those banks and hedge fund managers and CEOs of many of the Wall Street crowd. General Motors and many others having their butts bailed out by USA taxpayers but since they are corporations and not welfare queens living in some poverty hellhole full of crime in the largest urban areas of the USA....they are FORGIVEN their thieving ways eh? Free cash and it is not some five hundred dollars a month check for cash assistance it is BILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars. And you Julian? Do you protest that or is that ok by you? Isn't capitalist principles supposed to mean if you can't turn a profit on your own in the free perfect and great market of bullshit and the invisible hand is not helping you...you are supposed to man up and take the loss and not come begging for help from the public coffers? But they BEG and plead and get a bunch of sellout politicians from the Republican and Democratic party to bail their sorry butts out. And people like you? Concentrate on what? Some poor people hustling to make end's meet when they can't find jobs because they never finished high school? PLEASE.....Next argument, please.




If PR asks for independence they will get it right away. If PR asks for statehood they will not get it. Why? Because PR has a larger population than 28 states in the mainland. This will mean an avalanche of AOC socialist types in Congress and two extra left-wing senators. Why do you think they always deny statehood for the District of Columbia? That would be two extra SJWs socialist senators. Who in the world wants that?


Apparently, the 14th district of the Bronx in NYC wants the socialist in congress. And a few other districts in the USA. Vermont wants the socialist Sanders and it is growing. He was the only declared socialist in the entire senate and congress til recently. It is growing and it is a whole lot of young people that want it. They are tired of the excuses made by the banks giving out student loans and saddling them with three decades of debt to make a college degree happen for them and then they can't make middle-class salaries and still have to repay the debt with interest. It is not the American Dream. It is a series of becoming debt slaves for decades to make banking interests rich. Hmmm. Who benefits from such a setup Julian? I wonder.....? Could it be the same bankers that rule Puerto Rico and keep blocking legislation to declare bankruptcy and get some economic relief? What is their motivation I wonder for keeping people in debt? Hmmm. Julian do you have the answer? because I can't figure it out....because capitalism is so fair and perfect and lovely and the only way of being prosperous...oh, please great Julian tell me the answer.... :lol:

I am certain there is money to be made. That is the idea of colonialism. But, PR never moved ahead like Hawaii and Alaska. Why?


You need to do some research, Julian. I gave you the answer to that question with posting The Last Colony. Obviously, you did not watch the whole film and did not listen to the part in which they explained the differences between incorporated territories and unincorporated territories. The ones fast-tracked for statehood all become incorporated territories. The Philippines and Guam and the Solomon Islands and American Samoa and Puerto Rico and USA Virgin Islands did not. The reason for that? They never had the intention of making them states. Only colonies, possessions or outposts for the military or for selling products to. Is it fair? No. Will it have legal consequences in the future? Most certainly. Bizarre legal gymnastics had to be done to get that to happen. If you are interested you look up the insular cases starting with Balzac case:


Since you got a short attention span I will make it fast by that video posting above. Please pay attention to that white guy talking about it. Lol.


I am disgusted by your low opinion of Puerto Ricans. I have known many and they are decent hard working people. You seem to think they are just like that herd of people marching to the Mexico USA border. Shame on you! Furthermore, your view of them suggests you think they cannot make it on their own. You believe they need someone to hold their hands. That is how blacks in America have been treated and they now are in a state of total dependence.


Aw, I like you now Julian. You are defending the Puerto Ricans. Compared to those low life Central Americans fleeing crime and crushing poverty and who are animal-like herding towards the USA-American border. You are disgusted by my low opinion of Puerto Ricans? You have known many and they work hard. Who am I? A low life Puerto Rican. Lol. I have to go to the bathroom my man Julian. You made me laugh so hard I had to go to the bathroom. It goes to show how you can get really lost in the internet debates like PoFo and assume stuff that just ain't right! Damn it....misled by what is supposed to be true and is not....hell. 8) :lol: :D
#15017964
Finfinder wrote:Here is my music selection you can listen while you read. It's called Don't let the Door Hit You. It means Don't Let the door hit you. Classic blues :D




Were you having problems sitting there in Colorado or wherever you are getting people to listen to your bigoted vitriol, and anti- American whining? I just figured I’d give you the attention you so desperately desire. It’s no wonder how you feel, you turned your back on your own people and now you’re going to do the same here and no one will listen to your problems. With any luck maybe the Mexicans will be able to stand to have you. I say…. do you need any assistance packing, I have a lot of extra boxes you can have?



FBI Arrests Former Top Puerto Rico Officials In Government Corruption Scandal

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/11/74059617 ... on-scandal


U.S. authorities have unsealed a corruption indictment against two former top officials in Puerto Rico for directing some $15.5 million in contracts to favored businesses, allegedly edging out other firms for the lucrative government work despite allegations of being unqualified.

The two former Puerto Rico leaders — Julia Keleher, who was the secretary of the island's department of education before stepping down in April, and Ángela Ávila-Marrero, who led Puerto Rico's Health Insurance Administration until last month — were arrested by FBI agents on Wednesday.

Prosecutors wrote in the indictment that the conspiracy involved the two former public officials handing four associates who had an inside track to contracts.

Once secured, authorities say the contractors benefited by paying "unauthorized commissions" to other individuals to lobby government for more contracts, dynamic authorities described as "a corrupt bidding process."

At a press conference in San Juan, U.S. Attorney for Puerto Rico Rosa Emilia Rodríguez-Vélez elaborated.

"Both Keleher and Ávila-Marrero took advantage of their privileged positions as agency chiefs. They defrauded the U.S. and Puerto Rican governments," Rodríguez said.

Federal authorities also arrested and charged Glenda Ponce-Mendoza and Mayra Ponce-Mendoza, who are sisters who worked as education consultants; Fernando Scherrer Caillet, an executive at the auditing firm BDO; and consultant Alberto Velázquez Piñol. The 32-count indictment accuses the defendants of charges including wire fraud, theft and money laundering.

The charges related to steering lucrative government contracts to business friends come at a politically sensitive time for the island's government, which has been trying to project a polished and competent image of themselves to Congress as island leadership expects to receive billions of dollars in recovery aid to help rebuild after Hurricane Maria.

The approved aid was delayed after Washington lawmakers squabbled about how much the island deserves after the hurricane killed nearly 3,000 people and caused billions of dollars in damage.

Word of the charges rocked the political establishment in Puerto Rico and cut short the European vacation of Gov. Ricardo Rosselló, who immediately booked a flight home.

And although Rosselló was not directly implicated in the criminal probe, Arizona Rep. Raúl Grijalva, who is the chair of the Natural Resources Committee that oversees Puerto Rico, called on Rosselló to resign.

"The Puerto Rican people deserve a government that takes public service seriously, that's transparent and accountable, and that doesn't let this happen in the first place," Grijalva said in a statement.

Félix Córdova, a political analyst who teaches at the University of Puerto Rico, said the corruption scandal reveals a troubling reality on the island.

"No one is proud of the corruption. It has demoralized Puerto Ricans," Córdova told NPR.

And yet, Córdova said many island residents were not entirely surprised by the charges.

Faced with a dismal economy and budget cuts that have eliminated some basic services, the government has hired private companies to carry out health care and educational services.

Privatizing public services introduces a profit motive, said Córdova, who argues that such a scenario makes conditions ripe for corruption.

Trump has said that Puerto Rico has received more federal aid than other states hit with natural disasters, such as Texas and Florida, and has repeatedly questioned sending relief aid to the island over fears that government leaders would mismanage the funds.

"The people of Puerto Rico deserve true leadership and Federal disaster support that helps them the most — not the politicians who have used disaster spending as a political platform to further their own agendas," according to a White House statement released in April.


Trump isn't into corruption, is he? Who assigned that Julia Keheler lady to the Puerto Rican Education scene? Hmmm. Trump. She is charged with corruption...but why? She is an American woman appointed by the Republican party.....are they corrupt? No.

Fin you don't fool me for a second. You debate poorly and are basically not much of a challenge at all. You want to say I am bigoted because you know deep in your heart you are one but rarely can find a way of facing up to it in the liberal world of fora debating. Lol.

You can't stand me because? I tell you who you are to your face. Most people don't.

I am not in the USA anymore and have not been for months. Lol. For hating what I say and write you find your way to my threads quite consistently. I would count you as either a fan of mine, that secretly reads my writings and it makes his blood boil....and then is fearful of trying to challenge me because if you do? You might be left wanting (like in the Hurricane Maria thread). I am supposed to use the tone of voice you approve of....you are my who? To tell me in which way I am supposed to debate a point? Only very insecure people do that. I will let you think about that...another salsa tune is appropo right now....


I don't care about your opinions Fin because you come from a place of lack of analysis and at this stage in your life? Who knows when you will get some of it?

Lol. Ave Maria hombre, get some sense of humor and stop being such a sensitive man. It is ok to lose some points. It is bound to happen. That is what this platform is for. Just don't be a sore one over it. Life goes on you know...

The USA never has corruption. Only the Puerto Rican pro-statehood PNP crowd that is promoted and was promoted for years by mainland conservative corporations and Republican party crap interests engage in corruption....the American political scene is free of corrupt politicians people. Don't you agree? Hmm...no, the USA doesn't have blood spilled overpower such as presidents head being blown off like they do in African nations and in Latin America? Fact check...oh uh, they do. They don't have presidents taking bribes from foreign countries...hmmm...remain silent on that one. They don't have lobbyists and special interests undermining democracy and influencing the vote on legislation....lol. Yeah right....the USA can't be held responsible for what happens in Puerto Rico because Puerto Rico is an independent nation making their own decisions without any USA influences over their laws, trade relationships and economic and political institutions right? Hmmm no that is not true either....but aren't the Puerto Ricans supposed to be RESPONSIBLE damn it for their own territory? Every state is supposed to be responsible for their own territorial state laws. But? Puerto Rico is not a state either and is not allowed to be responsible. So who is responsible? No one? Like the Wall Street meltdown bailout of 2008? No one goes to jail and is responsible...just let bad stuff happen and no one gets a consequence. Hmmm. I wonder how long that works in human history.....

Let us ask Julian?

Meanwhile, you can be a real Puerto Rican there in your computer wanting to kick me out because I made you look bad....here guy, have some fun. Dance....

Big smile...

#15017983
Tainari88 wrote:The ones getting a whole universe full of free government bailouts were all those banks and hedge fund managers and CEOs of many of the Wall Street crowd. General Motors and many others having their butts bailed out by USA taxpayers but since they are corporations and not welfare queens living in some poverty hellhole full of crime in the largest urban areas of the USA....they are FORGIVEN their thieving ways eh? Free cash and it is not some five hundred dollars a month check for cash assistance it is BILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars. And you Julian? Do you protest that or is that ok by you? Isn't capitalist principles supposed to mean if you can't turn a profit on your own in the free perfect and great market of bullshit and the invisible hand is not helping you...you are supposed to man up and take the loss and not come begging for help from the public coffers? But they BEG and plead and get a bunch of sellout politicians from the Republican and Democratic party to bail their sorry butts out. And people like you? Concentrate on what? Some poor people hustling to make end's meet when they can't find jobs because they never finished high school? PLEASE.....Next argument, please.


You read me wrong: In Western Capitalist democracies the poor are obese and get free cash and often free housing from the government. Just because i mentioned this fact does not mean I am against this. I believe in providing basic income for those that are low in the competence hierarchy. I am very much a fan of the Nordic countries that offer a good safety net. The funds for the net are generated by capitalism, but every once in a while envious haters of capitalism destroy the chicken that is laying golden eggs. In summary, I have no issues with social programs as long as the system is capitalist.

Lastly, you are describing crony capitalism which in essence is not capitalism. You are describing corruption and as libertarian I hate that as much as you do. However, I am not willing to embrace socialism as you do because it has NEVER worked. Secondly, socialism is authoritarian and oppressive. There is no other way to have a socialist state. But, I give you some credit: If i was dirt poor and in the gutter I would be a socialist like you. WHy? Because I would have NOTHING to lose. That is how Chávez got elected; he got the vote of people that lived in the gutter.


Apparently, the 14th district of the Bronx in NYC wants the socialist in congress. And a few other districts in the USA. Vermont wants the socialist Sanders and it is growing. He was the only declared socialist in the entire senate and congress til recently. It is growing and it is a whole lot of young people that want it. They are tired of the excuses made by the banks giving out student loans and saddling them with three decades of debt to make a college degree happen for them and then they can't make middle-class salaries and still have to repay the debt with interest. It is not the American Dream. It is a series of becoming debt slaves for decades to make banking interests rich. Hmmm. Who benefits from such a setup Julian? I wonder.....? Could it be the same bankers that rule Puerto Rico and keep blocking legislation to declare bankruptcy and get some economic relief? What is their motivation I wonder for keeping people in debt? Hmmm. Julian do you have the answer? because I can't figure it out....because capitalism is so fair and perfect and lovely and the only way of being prosperous...oh, please great Julian tell me the answer.... :lol:


I already said I detest crony capitalism as much as you. However, real capitalism is the way to go:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. Adam Smith

I understand why socialism is making a comeback. It happens in every generation! Why? Marx makes an excellent analysis of the flaws of capitalism. His description is very compelling to naive people like you and the young people that want a free ride. Marx is correct! Capitalism does not fix the inequalities in society. The natural competence hierarchies remain untouched and the cream rises to the top. Capitalism does not change the natural hierarchy. Marx is very clever when he points this out and as I said his story is very compelling. There is only one problem: Even though the analysis is correct, the prescription does not work. And hence we never had a successful socialist country in the world. At best it only works in very tiny communities or tribes where people share DNA. The reason is VERY obvious: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EQUALITY. Not two humans are alike. Even identical twins with the same opportunities achieve differently.


You need to do some research, Julian. I gave you the answer to that question with posting The Last Colony. Obviously, you did not watch the whole film and did not listen to the part in which they explained the differences between incorporated territories and unincorporated territories. The ones fast-tracked for statehood all become incorporated territories. The Philippines and Guam and the Solomon Islands and American Samoa and Puerto Rico and USA Virgin Islands did not. The reason for that? They never had the intention of making them states. Only colonies, possessions or outposts for the military or for selling products to. Is it fair? No. Will it have legal consequences in the future? Most certainly. Bizarre legal gymnastics had to be done to get that to happen. If you are interested you look up the insular cases starting with Balzac case:


Since you got a short attention span I will make it fast by that video posting above. Please pay attention to that white guy talking about it. Lol.



By the way the color of the skin of the man in the video is not relevant.

I said before that in world history powerful nations always conquered the weak. Heck, America was once a colony of the British Empire who at one moment owned 33% of the world. I have news for you! Any other ethnic group with technological power would have done the same. Japan conquered Korea and treated Koreans worse than Hitler treated the Jews. Islamists invaded Spain, the North of Africa (formerly Christian) and Sicily. The had more slaves than America and they castrated all the male slaves and made harems with herds of captured Nordic women. The Incas were vicious too. Tribal warfare in Africa was and is always violent.

Aw, I like you now Julian. You are defending the Puerto Ricans. Compared to those low life Central Americans fleeing crime and crushing poverty and who are animal-like herding towards the USA-American border. You are disgusted by my low opinion of Puerto Ricans? You have known many and they work hard. Who am I? A low life Puerto Rican. Lol. I have to go to the bathroom my man Julian. You made me laugh so hard I had to go to the bathroom. It goes to show how you can get really lost in the internet debates like PoFo and assume stuff that just ain't right! Damn it....misled by what is supposed to be true and is not....hell. 8) :lol: :D


I defend Puerto Ricans because you think they are helpless people unable to take care of themselves.
Last edited by Julian658 on 14 Jul 2019 05:02, edited 1 time in total.
#15017985
Rancid wrote:Has the independence movement in Puerto Rico become greater since the Hurricanes?


I like this Vice News piece on some independence supporters on the island. The young lady with the vail on her face to not be identified says it best. The threat of economic losses, and instability and tyranny and etc...they took away so much they also take away the fear of just saying...you know what? Got nothing to lose. Just go it alone. It is best in the end Rancid.

Independence for distinctive cultural nations is the best road for internal control. It is the only way to make the economy grow, for Puerto Ricans to be responsible completely for everything that goes on in Puerto Rico and for the USA to abandon its ambitions of following old and obsolete forms of colonial rule that doesn't make sense in the 21st-century style of governing. It is an old and worn out model. And it is obviously problematic and not working for anyone. For the USA taxpayers, for the Puerto Ricans on the island and for the Puerto Ricans forced to emigrate from their ancestral island seeking work and stability in the USA when they would rather be home in the Caribbean island of Borinquen. That is the truth of it.

The myth that the USA is going to solve our problems is gone. They won't. They are not interested in our interests. They are interested in making a big cat banksters rich. It is not a mystery. They sold out to the banksters in the USA too...so why not the Puerto Ricans who can't even vote in the Congress and the Senate? Easy pickings for the vultures. The only way out is to kick the banksters out permanently and restructure everything legally, financially and politically and socially. How? Through revolution? The USA already is under threat of domestic terrorism with Right Wing nuts ex Iraqi war veterans like Timothy McVeigh was and the Right Wing extremists are on the march wanting to kick out all Latinos out of the USA. The racists are out there Rancid. Why go for statehood if you got a bunch of Right Wing racist fascist types preventing things because they don't want to accept that the demographic changes in the next half century are looking bad for them in the USA by 2070?

The reality of it all is that what needs to happen is for both the USA needs to take responsibility for being an imperialist user nation bent on profits and control when they had no right to do so from the beginning. And pay for the damages....and the Puerto Ricans need to stop being afraid. Because they got nothing left to lose anymore. The old commonwealth free associated state thing isn't solving any problems anymore.

But getting past the fear that independence requires national movements is a tough thing? Who knows when it might happen Rancid?
#15017995
Julian658 wrote:You read me wrong: In Western Capitalist democracies the poor are obese and get free cash and often free housing from the government. Just because i mentioned this fact does not mean I am against this. I believe in providing basic income for those that are low in the competence hierarchy. I am very much a fan of the Nordic countries that offer a good safety net. The funds for the net are generated by capitalism, but every once in a while envious haters of capitalism destroy the chicken that is laying golden eggs. In summary, I have no issues with social programs as long as the system is capitalist.


Julian, you should know by now that capitalism has to expand and control all possible markets or it risks saturation and eventual instability. So it has to invade and create colonies. Imperial ambitions and capitalism have a long history together. So did you watch the crash course video? The reason I mentioned the white guy because he himself mentions it. Why would he? Because he knows that in the USA white males are considered the privileged and he is trying to play the role of 'objective' history teacher. You don't get that subtlety? Hmmm. I am thinking you got some clarifications you are going to need to understand what I assume you knew. I will assume you don't know from now on. Don't take offense. You write to me like someone who assumed I wasn't Puerto Rican. And if I am Puerto Rican I got to poor and living in the gutter. I am going to be telling you something about forum debates so you can not make as many mistakes. Don't assume who people are. Ask the question and clarify first. Example:

Julian: Tainari88 are you Puerto Rican?
Tainari88: Yes Julian I was born in Puerto Rico of Puerto Rican parents a long time ago and am 53 years old. I am married and have two sons. I am an anthropologist. I speak three languages fluently and have advanced degrees from universities. I am currently not living in the USA or Puerto Rico. I study ancient civilizations. My parents are Puerto Ricans who are deceased and both were educated people and died as pro-independence Puerto Ricans. If they believed Puerto Ricans could not run their own nation why fight for that for their entire lives? It doesn't make sense. In fact, they believed that Puerto Ricans can do anything because my parents came from poverty and became incredibly accomplished people. If they thought Puerto Ricans were not capable of ruling ourselves why advocate for that with such dedication?

Julian: Oh, I assumed you were not Puerto Rican because?

Tainari88: Because you are thinking of stereotypes of what Puerto Ricans are supposed to be like? Or because I what? Disagree with your perspective? Get a clue Julian, don't assume anything in the future...you aren't privy to people's private lives and worlds and backgrounds on PoFo....ask a question and clarify first. It will prevent my hilarity at your assumptions. :lol: :lol: ;)

Julian: But if I clarify it might make me look like someone who doesn't read or something and I want to be the winner in a debate without clarification.

Tainari88: First rule Julian, clarify. Go and do research. Pay attention to videos people post and correlate it to the discussion. Go to the dictionary and look up what socialism is and if the USA has socialist programs that function to this very day and why they continue to exist. Analyze why socialism and how socialism emerged in the first place and why capitalism wasn't enough to stabilize economic systems in the world. Know your history well and do your research. It will make you a great debater. And that will avoid the problems Fin has...which is lack of analysis.


Lol. Good night young man. BTW, I am in the Yucatan in Mexico. I just celebrated because a very important goal I had been working on for months is a great success and I am very happy. I am living in a paid for home mortgage-free that I picked out for myself and I am very happy. Don't assume you know people Julian. You don't in this medium. Stick to the argument and again ask clarifying questions. , a

One last thing, Julian. The rest of your assumptions of what Marx is about, what socialism is about, what cream rising to the top is about and all the rest is incredibly error-filled on your part. Go through this forum and look for the experts on each ideology and ask them to define the terms for you til you understand what each one means thoroughly. Once you do? You can then go and debate what you don't like of your 'contrincantes' or 'opponents' and do a good job.

Otherwise, it is hard to debate you when you are obviously assuming and not knowing what basic terms mean. Put in the time. You won't regret it Julian. And say hello to your Boricua girlfriend for me.

Hee hee.
#15018045
What happened to Julian? He is unpersoned? Just when I thought he was understaning a little bit? He is gone. I never found out what happened? Oh well....
#15018053
Tainari88 wrote:Julian, you should know by now that capitalism has to expand and control all possible markets or it risks saturation and eventual instability. So it has to invade and create colonies. Imperial ambitions and capitalism have a long history together. So did you watch the crash course video? The reason I mentioned the white guy because he himself mentions it. Why would he? Because he knows that in the USA white males are considered the privileged and he is trying to play the role of 'objective' history teacher. You don't get that subtlety? Hmmm. I am thinking you got some clarifications you are going to need to understand what I assume you knew. I will assume you don't know from now on. Don't take offense. You write to me like someone who assumed I wasn't Puerto Rican. And if I am Puerto Rican I got to poor and living in the gutter. I am going to be telling you something about forum debates so you can not make as many mistakes. Don't assume who people are. Ask the question and clarify first. Example:


You are possessed by ideology. It is easy to predict what is coming out of your mouth or keyboard as you follow the left wing social justice dogma to the letter. And you fail to understand my point. I already said capitalism was unfair. In fact capitalism is so unfair that it needs to create social programs to take care of those that are low in the competence hierarchy. Without those social programs we end up with a revolution and EVERYBODY suffers. Nevertheless, despite all the shortcomings of capitalism we are living in the most prosperous times in world history. PLease read Steven Pinker's latest book. He is very liberal, not conservative at all.

Image

Julian: Tainari88 are you Puerto Rican?
Tainari88: Yes Julian I was born in Puerto Rico of Puerto Rican parents a long time ago and am 53 years old. I am married and have two sons. I am an anthropologist. I speak three languages fluently and have advanced degrees from universities. I am currently not living in the USA or Puerto Rico. I study ancient civilizations. My parents are Puerto Ricans who are deceased and both were educated people and died as pro-independence Puerto Ricans. If they believed Puerto Ricans could not run their own nation why fight for that for their entire lives? It doesn't make sense. In fact, they believed that Puerto Ricans can do anything because my parents came from poverty and became incredibly accomplished people. If they thought Puerto Ricans were not capable of ruling ourselves why advocate for that with such dedication?


Your personal data does not make your arguments better or worse. In fact it is an outright debate fallacy.

Julian: Oh, I assumed you were not Puerto Rican because?

Tainari88: Because you are thinking of stereotypes of what Puerto Ricans are supposed to be like? Or because I what? Disagree with your perspective? Get a clue Julian, don't assume anything in the future...you aren't privy to people's private lives and worlds and backgrounds on PoFo....ask a question and clarify first. It will prevent my hilarity at your assumptions. :lol: :lol: ;)


Stereotypes are based on reality, however, it would be racist to judge one individual because of stereotypes.

Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors. Ayn Rand
I make zero assumptions.


Julian: But if I clarify it might make me look like someone who doesn't read or something and I want to be the winner in a debate without clarification.

Tainari88: First rule Julian, clarify. Go and do research. Pay attention to videos people post and correlate it to the discussion. Go to the dictionary and look up what socialism is and if the USA has socialist programs that function to this very day and why they continue to exist. Analyze why socialism and how socialism emerged in the first place and why capitalism wasn't enough to stabilize economic systems in the world. Know your history well and do your research. It will make you a great debater. And that will avoid the problems Fin has...which is lack of analysis.


Another debate fallacy: Appeal To unknown Authority; you are on a roll.



One last thing, Julian. The rest of your assumptions of what Marx is about, what socialism is about, what cream rising to the top is about and all the rest is incredibly error-filled on your part. Go through this forum and look for the experts on each ideology and ask them to define the terms for you til you understand what each one means thoroughly. Once you do? You can then go and debate what you don't like of your 'contrincantes' or 'opponents' and do a good job.


Socialism fails every time and then the experts like you say: That was not real socialism! The issue is BASIC and simple. Socialism only works within the framework of an authoritarian system. That is the problem: AUTHORITARIAN You will never see a nation where everybody volunteers to be a socialist. Therefore socialism has to be authoritarian.
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