General Augusto Pinochet - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Freedom
#23104
Now i've been researching the military coup in Chile, as this is often used by Left Wing parrots to attack America etc. Know before i researched Pinochet i knew he had killed and used extradjusical methods to round up people, so i never thought i'd end up actually supporting Pinochet, at least partially, for what he done for Chile. Also i thought it'd be a controversial matter to kick start the South America forum.

Note: Heavy on Anti Communism :)

GENERAL PINOCHET
HERO OF THE CHILEAN PEOPLE


No one alive today is more loathed by the Communists and their fellow travelers and camp followers than Chilean General and former President Augusto Pinochet Ugarte. The reasons are two fold. Pinochet defeated the hated Communist terrorist militias, the internationally armed financed, and staffed "revolutionaries" on the battlefield and by doing so, ended their attempt to communize Chile in the name of "the people". Pinochet then "transformed" Chile into a peaceful democracy with one of the most prosperous economies in the region. With an extraordinary record of achievement in social and economic reform, the establishment of democratic institutions, and a free election, Pinochet retired in 1990 leaving a grateful Chilean people free of the terror of International Socialism, probably forever.
The pro Communist media is filled with lackeys willing to lie and prostitute their souls either for career advancement or because they are true believers in the Communist faith. That they have been effective with their "atrocity propaganda" against Pinochet is testament to the enduring influence of the Communist idea amongst the world's power elite. They have, so far, pulled off the Big Lie with regard to Pinochet except with Chilean people. The Communist, of course, approaches atrocity dialectically rather than fundamentally. They have no problem with atrocities when governments such as those of Castro, Stalin, Mao, Paul Pot et al commit them, as these "struggles", they inform us, are for the "common good" as they liquidate tens of millions.

An excellent example of this is Willy Meyer, parliamentary spokesman for Izquerida Unida, the renamed Communist Party of Spain. Meyer, commenting on the arrest of Pinochet in Britain, stated that "We do not consider that Fidel Castro is a dictator. We respect the Marxist-Leninist legality by whose definition political persecution, torture, and disappearances cannot exist in Cuba. We are dividing the world between good guys and bad guys There is a vacuum in the international enforcement of human rights and we realize that whoever seizes the initiative to punish violators wins the high ground". An excellent source for further information is an article by William Jasper, New American Vol. 15 No 19 PP 23-34.

Obviously, the left has no moral or practical right to discuss atrocity since they recognize it only dialectically and not actually. Their insufferable caterwauling concerning "human rights" is the equivalent of Hitler, their National Socialist comrade, complaining about anti-Semitism.

Pinochet was at war with a force that would stop at nothing to achieve victory, which would have amounted to complete subjugation under a Communist jack-boot. This truly was, to paraphrase Meyer, a battle between good guys and bad guys. The Pinochet coup was a defensive action and a direct response to formal requests by the Judiciary, the Legislature, and prominent citizens for military intervention as the situation under Salvador Allende were rapidly deteriorating. By 1980, the Chilean people voted 68% to approve a new constitution presented by the Pinochet government. This was the first step on the heroic road to the Republican democracy Chile is today.

Allende will be covered in coming weeks, however, it must be pointed out that documents and arms captured after Allende was overthrown, Sept. 11, 1973 proved that he was planning a coup of his own scheduled for Sept. 19, and to liquidate his opposition Castro style. Pinochet, who had served Allende as Army Chief of Staff during his three years in power, acted strictly out of a sense of duty and honor, and at great personal risk given Allende's extensive Gestapo, to save his nation from catastrophe. Pinochet was the quintessential career military man and had no ambition to involve himself in civilian affairs. Due to a traditional Latin American code of honor, he felt he had no choice.

On Sept 8, days after the coup, at a ceremony at the Church of National Gratitude, three former Chilean presidents endorsed the Pinochet government. Socialist Gabriel Gonzalez Videla stated "I have no words to thank the armed forces for having freed us from the clutches of Marxism. They have saved us because the totalitarian apparatus that was prepared to destroy us has been itself destroyed" Eduardo Frei, himself a Marxist, stated "The military has saved Chile from civil war being prepared by the Marxists. And that is what the world does not know, refuses to know".

Pinochet, once in power, acted with amazing restraint toward those who were plotting a Communist takeover. Allende declined his offer of safe passage and instead chose suicide. He deported thousands of Communist foreigners who were planning firing squads if they achieved power, and released Chilean citizens involved in treasonous activities including the dangerous KGB and Cuban agent, as well as darling of the American left establishment, Orlando Letelier.

Under the guidance of University of Chicago economists, the Pinochet government cleared out economic regulations, reduced tariffs from 100% to 10% and returned businesses and property, "expropriated" by Allende, to the rightful owners. Foreign investment poured in as confidence and stability returned. Taxes and inflation were reduced, Social Security was privatized, and government bureaucrats were able to find jobs in a thriving private sector. Our American government could learn some valuable lessons from Chile.

A relentless war was waged against Pinochet and the Chilean people during the years, 1973-1990. Bill Jasper points out that in 1984 alone, there were 735 terrorist bombings with responsibility claimed by the Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (MRPF) the Communist cadre supported by Cuba, Nicaragua, Libya, East Germany, and the Soviet Union. On Sept. 7, 1986, Pinochet and his 10-year-old grandson narrowly escaped an ambush by Communists armed with automatic rifles, rocket launchers, bazookas, and grenades. Many terrorists and their supporters were killed in this war of attrition both by Pinochet's forces and by civilians seeking vengeance and. given the situation, many of their bodies went unidentified. Jasper states that "we have seen no evidence to sustain the charges that Pinochet ordered, knew of, or approved of, any plan for the use of murder or torture against his political opponents".

In 1988, Pinochet called for elections and a return to civilian rule. In an unprecedented move, he retired from public life in 1990 a hero to freedom loving Chileans. Communism makes inroads during economic crisis and often employs violence and terror as well to make the argument for totalitarianism. Allende deliberately created dire economic conditions and introduced an unprecedented level of violence so as to create the right "conditions" for a Castro style takeover. His dastardly plot was dashed by the heroic efforts of General Pinochet. The blood soaked, International Communist behemoth was defeated and for this, they will forever despise General Pinochet.


I'll post more articles and if i can find them declassified documents on the matter.
By bach
#23120
Well, I cartainly dont think that the people who were being thrown out of airplanes (while flying) were so happy abuot pinochet, but yeah all depends from which side you look at it.

Now it is kind of strange why there is now a "left" government, if what pinochet did was so great, but as some would say "first the state and then the people", for me he is just another murderer.

Chile under Pinochet - a chronology

Friday January 15, 1999

1970
President Salvador Allende is elected to power at the head of a Popular Unity coalition of Socialists and Communists.
1973
August: Augusto Pinochet is appointed by Allende as commander-in-chief of the army.
September: In a violent coup, the presidential palace is bombed. Allende is among the first of 1,213 people who die or disappear between September 11 and the end of 1973. Pinochet dissolves Congress, suspends the constitution, bans opposition, arrests trade unionists and imposes controls on the media. Thousands are forced into exile. Four hundred US CIA experts assist Pinochet. The regime embarks on a radical programme of denationalisation, closely assisted by economists from the University of Chicago.

1976
Orlando Letelier, Chile's former foreign minister and Socialist Party leader in exile, is killed by a car bomb in the centre of Washington DC. The Pinochet regime is widely implicated.

1978
Pinochet declares an amnesty to cover all human rights abuses since the coup.

1980
Pinochet launches a new, dictatorial, constitution, which is ratified by a controversial plebiscite. Britain lifts its arms embargo on Pinochet's regime.

1982
Chile assists Britain during the Falklands war with Chilean bases and intelligence. Britain opposes UN investigations of human rights abuses in Chile.

1986
Pinochet is the target of an assassination attempt by the left-wing Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR).

1987
Pinochet legalises some political parties. Leaders of the centrist opposition Democratic Alliance reject the initiative as "having no other purpose than the continuation of the dictatorship". The Pope visits Chile and denounces political torture.

1988
Pinochet loses a plebiscite on his rule with 44 per cent of the ballot.

1989
Veteran lawyer Patricio Aylwin, aged 70, a Christian Democrat, wins a landslide 55 per cent of the votes to become Chile's new president. He is sworn in in 1990. But Pinochet stays on as army chief.

1991
Chile's National Commission for Truth and Reconciliation publishes a lengthy indictment of Pinochet's dictatorship, officially counting 2,279 deaths (later revised to 3,172) in "political violence".

1993
Chile's ruling coalition wins the general election. Christian Democrat Eduardo Frei becomes President.

1998
March: Pinochet steps down as head of the Chilean army and becomes a senator, with a guarantee of parliamentary immunity for life.
September: 82-year-old General Pinochet undertakes a private trip to London for back surgery.
October: The Spanish judges Manuel Garcia Catellon and Baltasar Garzon, investigating Pinochet in connection with the torture and disappearance of Spanish citizens during the Pinochet regime, contact Interpol. British police arrest a sedated Pinochet at his London clinic.
November: Five Law Lords rule by 3-2 that Pinochet is not immune from prosecution.
December: The Home Secretary, Jack Straw, allows the extradition process to go forward, but later in the month the Law Lords' ruling is set aside after allegations of bias on the part of one of the five, Lord Hoffmann. He failed to declare links with Amnesty International.

1999
January: A new panel of seven Law Lords is appointed to hear the Pinochet case again. British supporters of Pinochet, including Lord Lamont and one of Baroness Thatcher's senior aides, launch a campaign defending his human rights record.
March: The seven Law Lords vote by 6-1 that Pinochet must face extradition to Spain, but that he is immune from prosecution for crimes committed before 1988, when a change in British law rendered "extraterritorial" torture illegal.


By Freedom
#23125
In the years after Salvador Allende’s election to president in 1970, Chile slid into a state of lawlessness as armed Marxist paramilitary groups, with tacit support from the Government, killed and confiscated property at will. Hyper-inflation and shortages in food, medicine and necessities heightened the sad state of affairs. As months passed, Allende brought in nearly ten thousand foreign agitators, including Cuban agents, Czech and Soviet military advisors for an apparent planned insurrection. As the crisis deepened, the Chilean High Court denounced Allende for failing to uphold law and order, and by September 1973, Parliament called upon the Chilean Armed Forces to put an end to the violations of law and restore constitutional order. The armed forces under General Pinochet overthrew the government of Allende and instituted a military government promising to return power to the people as soon as normality had been restored.

But victory did not spare the military government from the wrath of Leftist political elites. In June 1974, the Communist Party in Chile reiterated the nonnegociablity of its right to use violence. Again, in 1979, one month after Ortega and the Sandinistas came to power in Nicaragua, Chilean Communist Party Secretary General Luis Corvalan announced that Chile "could become the next Nicaragua." From the safety of his Moscow refuge, Corvalan called for the eradication of military rule and endorsed guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and a massive armed uprising. Finally, in 1986 the military uncovered, and traced to Cuba, one of the largest clandestine arms shipments in the history of the Western hemisphere, enough to arms five thousand men. In the wake of these events, Pinochet cracked down on the well-formed and well-funded guerrillas and urban terrorists. Inevitably, innocent people suffered. The Rettig Commission, organized to document abuses by Pinochet’s government, concluded that approximately 2,115 people died at the hands of the military government. The first three months after the coup claimed the vast majority of lives, and two-thirds took place in his first three years. While the death of 2,115 people is a disturbing statistic, by no means does it constitute what the Left labels "genocide." Killing, though, was not indiscriminate. Of these, ninety-five percent were men of military age and believed armed and dangerous, capable of armed resistance against the government. The army pursued those on the Left, and in fact the commission verified many of the victims belonged to the extreme Left.

Economically, Chile experienced a profound change. Pinochet re-established the productive system, liberalized the economy, and privatized many state companies. He funneled social expenditures toward the weaker stratums of society using innovative policies, and as a result, all social indicators, such as life expectancy, adult literacy, and the human development index noticeably improved. Chile served as the beacon for socioeconomic development for in Latin America, and for crumbling European societies behind the wall, as well.

In 1980, Pinochet called for a referendum on the text of the new Chilean constitution, along with his designation as president. Eighty percent of Chileans approved. Among other things, the constitution created a security council as well as a second round of presidential elections to avoid another episode similar to 1973. The constitution also included several transition articles to facilitate the shift to a complete democratic government. The transition period lasted for eight years, after which citizens voted on another referendum to choose either open presidential elections or continue with Pinochet for another eight years, but this time in a pluralistic democracy. Unlike Fidel Castro or the communist bosses of Eastern Europe, Pinochet did not rule with an iron hand. Opposition parties and opposition publications operated more or less freely throughout the 1980s. For this reason, opposition built the necessary majority to initiate a change in power. In 1988, Pinochet received forty three percent of the vote, and true to his word called for open elections. With his mission accomplished, Pinochet presented the presidential band to center-left candidate Patricio Aylwin, and finally stepped down power.

How does a dictator who created a booming economy and left a democratic legacy find himself the first former head of state to be charged and held by a third country? While Castro, who has bankrupt his country and tyrannized his citizens, remains the longest ruling dictator in the world. The single and sufficient answer is the Left hates him. Why does the Left hate him? Simple, Pinochet stopped a left-wing revolution; Chile was earmarked as the next Cuba. Instead, Pinochet dismantled state controls and established a free market system, which by all accounts of the Left could not work. Now only did the rich prosper, but in time so did the poor. The same cannot be said for the poor in China, North Korea, Cuba, Cambodia, or Yugoslavia. Yet liberal intellectuals in Western democracies have somehow lost this comparison. Rather, "progressive mankind" focuses on the grave wrongs committed by the military government in overthrowing Allende’s Marxist regime. Nevertheless, while extolling the "great experiment" conducted by Marxist leaders, they ignore the brutal application of these theories so fashionable in prestigious universities and magazines. While explicit documentaries of the streets of Santiago in 1973, reports of mass executions, and the daily brutality spark outrage, nary a peep comes from the Left about the monstrous evils in Soviet Union and People’s Republic of China.

Meanwhile, sadistic tyrants and their representatives from North Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam enjoy trips to New York for UN meetings, while an old man traveling to have surgery on his back in Great Britain sits in jail awaiting extradition. Imprisoning Pinochet on a foreign trip is another bad idea of progressives that will come back to bite them. Under this precedent would Castro ever step down, even for a life seat in the Senate? Not likely. If Cubans ever had the opportunity to put Castro on trial they might well be accused of vengefulness by many in the free world, including professors and students on this campus. This double standard may be a comfort to left-wing dictators around the world, but is a toxin for many societies that profess the commitment to uphold respect for human rights and democratic freedoms. So what do we want? Pinochet’s release! When do we want it? Now!


Worth a note: Pinochets Chile offered better standard of like than Castros Cuba and killed less ;) Double standards i'd say
By Simon Ostap
#23151
What? You mean a South American country with U.S CIA support ended up with a better standard of living then a country that had sanctions placed all over it? Wow, that's truly proof that Pinochet was a great guy... let's forget all about socialism and equality, because obviously killing people is wrong, unless you're killing people who's ideals are 'Let's share everything'.

I know what I learnt from all this. If a tin-pot dictator like Castro kills dissedents, and silences his people then that's an autrocity. but if a tin-pot dictator like Pinochet does the same thing, it's okay, as long as the lines of free trade aren't disturbed.

Congratulations everybody, we've come to the conclusion that a monetary value 'can' be put on human life, break open the champagne!
By Freedom
#23152
had sanctions placed all over


Only America and Isreal have sanctions on Cuba. If they fail to trade with other countries its the leaders own ignorance. Also for the entire time Pinochet was in office Cuba had the Soviet Union, the Soviet Bloc and other Tin Pot Socialist Dictatorships to trade with.

let's forget all about socialism and equality


Socialism=Horseshit


but if a tin-pot dictator like Pinochet does the same thing, it's okay, as long as the lines of free trade aren't disturbed.


The point was simply this: To de-mistify "Allende" as some sort of "victim" the guy was an ass, to re-write the lefts overblown history of Pinochet as a bad guy.

If you read the article it simply stated this: Of the 2115 most if not all were terrorists plotting against the government...and this is provably so.

Congratulations everybody, we've come to the conclusion that a monetary value 'can' be put on human life, break open the champagne


Anyone who talks about "communism" as good after the last century has no right to complain about "human lives" get real, read a book and learn some history.

'Let's share everything'


Hmmph this is not the place to discuss economics

Before this gets ugly...the point of the two articles, at least the reason for me posting them, is that people all was talk about "Genocide" or "Mas Torture" when speaking of Pinochet and the evidence to back up such sweeping claims is pitiful. While certainly deaths happened during Pinochets reign, many were not taken out under the jurisdiction of any executive order, so Pinochets accountability is slim. They also peak of Allende and his ilk like some sort of mythical figures, when they are not, unless your a completely foolish socialist. They never account the amount of good that Pinochet had done economically for the country and the fact that he handed over power to a center left leader.

Also worth noting...Allenda won 38% of the electorate when he was voted in...Pinochet was kicked out of office but retained a 48% share of the vote.

I'm just trying to fill in some gaps in the history of this Country and this particular period of Chile.
By Simon Ostap
#23211
Alright, so let's suppose Pinochet isn't as bad as the media has made him out to be?Does this make him any less deserveing of punishment for what he 'has' done? If I were to produce documents claiming that Hitler's Holocaust resulted in far less deaths then the world had originally thought, would you take that as a sign that Hitler was less terrible then we had all first thought? Sure, Hitler and Pinochet are leagues apart, but the point stands, You don't pick favourites on murderers just because one killed less then another, and you certainly shouldn't pick favourites based on what countries or what ideologies supported them.

Or is it allright since Pinochet killed mostly Communists? Maybe that makes him a hero of democracy, right? But with the same breath, I could call Stalin a hero of equality, since I'm sure Stalin had mostly bourgiousie types killed, but we both know that wouldn't be true.

I also have to say, I don't quite see what you stand to prove by exposing him as 'not so bad'. Is it 'just' to try to bastardize the opinions of the left? You claim 2115 died at the hands of the Chilean dictator Pinochet? How many died in the September 11th incident? Around 2000, and that in it's self has been used as an excuse to trounce a number of struggleing nations in a new age terrorist witch hunt. So if 2000 American deaths are justification for an international war against terror, how many Chilean deaths are justification for bringing Pinochet to justice?
The states is still looking for Osama Bin Ladin, and Saddam Hussien, because apparently toppling their regimes was not enough for democracy... They need to see corpses, they need verification and closure, do the families of 2000 chilieans not deserve the same closure?

Perhaps I'm going off the handle bar about nothing here, but one things for sure... When I see a murderer, I don't see their political agenda, I just see a murderer. Granted, some murderers accomplished more for their nation at the cost of lives, Stalin for example. While some simply accomplish more for themselves.

And as for your accusation that Socialism is horseshit, I can tell you I smell the Horseshit quite clearly, it's evident from the poverty line, and the two billion people worldwide that live on less then two dollars a day each, while many of us stuff our filthy undeserving faces.

Don't try to lecture Communists about the values of Human life, Both Communism and Capitalism have caused death, but where ones ideal attempts to reach equality and stop that pattern, the other ideology simply shrugs and blames it on the cruel nature of reality.

I'd rather be on a losing team with morals, despite the fact a few bad apples get into the mix.
By Freedom
#23262
See this is the hypocracy...whenever i hear a communist talk about Stalin or even worse Mao, its always they built a little infastructure and what have you and this justifies the deaths of tens of millions. No one is pissed...but when i post two articles defending Pinochet, even to the slightest degree, its a big deal.

Stalin had mostly bourgiousie types killed


Again this is shit...Stalin killed mostly poor peasants, social democrats, anarchists and religious folk.

I could call Stalin a hero of equality


I could call Pinochet a hero of equality...depends on your view of what exactly "equality" means.

Is it 'just' to try to bastardize the opinions of the left?


Yup...the left bastardized him waaaaaayyyyyy outta proportion considering the brutality of "left wing dictators" who no one ever talks about. There is a difference between 2000 dead terrorists than 6 million dead peasants...thank you very much.

struggleing nations


First off Iraq wasnt a soveign nation...it was a series of no-fly zones and semi autonomous states...second of all they wre stuggling coz there leaders sucked shit..another Socialist was Saddam.

So if 2000 American deaths are justification for an international war against


The deaths caused by radical islamic terrorists runs into the tens of thousands worldwide wide...including theocratice states run under the guise of "Islam"...again 2000 in one day compared to 2000 in ten years is a little different.

the families of 2000 chilieans not deserve the same closure?


See you misunderstand the whole point...i think Pinochet should serve some time...but not as much time as some of the countries left wingers so heartily defend...most of those people killed were actually terrorists....

And as for your accusation that Socialism is horseshit, I can tell you I smell the Horseshit quite clearly, it's evident from the poverty line, and the two billion people worldwide that live on less then two dollars a day each, while many of us stuff our filthy undeserving faces.


Well most of the poorest nations in the world had at one stage(ie the poorest stage) Socialist leaders. So the accusation still stand...Free Trade has brought 100s of millions of people out of poverty...socialism will put them back there..

Capitalism


Few Democratic countries have murdered as much as socialist states(wars excluded from both sides)...the arguement is stupid.

I'd rather be on a losing team with morals, despite the fact a few bad apples get into the mix


Oh what morals? The post was to simply offer an alternative view of Pinochet, he has been unfairly demonised by left wing journalists long enough...

Do the families of those who died at the hands of a communist leader, a marxist guerrila not need closure...do those tens of millions not deserve the safety of mind that it will not happen again? Your arguements are simply double standards, nothing more...I was attempting to fill in some gaps in history, so poorly written by leftwing historians.
By Skullers
#23276
pinochet is a great example of why "peaceful transition to socialism" is impossible... you must abolish the old state immideately or the bourgoisie will use it to regain power
By Gothmog
#23390
Economically, Chile experienced a profound change. Pinochet re-established the productive system, liberalized the economy, and privatized many state companies. He funneled social expenditures toward the weaker stratums of society using innovative policies, and as a result, all social indicators, such as life expectancy, adult literacy, and the human development index noticeably improved. Chile served as the beacon for socioeconomic development for in Latin America, and for crumbling European societies behind the wall, as well.


Lie! Chile already had good living standards as relative to other Latin American countries before 1973. Just go to undp.org to look at Chilean (and other) statistics. Pinochet policies resulted in massive impoverishment. By 1987, 40% of Chilean population lived on poverty. Economic growth in Pinochet years was also mediocre (alternating periods of strong growth with the devastating recession of early 80´s). Chile had the second worse levels of unequality in LA (first is Brazil). Much of the gains in Human development actually happened AFTER Pinochet, under the coalition of Christian democrats and socialists (this was really a period of strong growth and improvement in living conditions, althought unequality remained untouched). On the other hand, it could be said that Pinochet´s economic policies were kept by those parties. Nowadays, Chile still is growing, but at relatively small rates, while unemployment is growing and the absence of a public social security system threatens the future of many people (social security in Chile was privatized, and has universal coverage, but only 50% of the population is adding money to their individual accounts)
By Gothmog
#23392
Only America and Isreal have sanctions on Cuba. If they fail to trade with other countries its the leaders own ignorance. Also for the entire time Pinochet was in office Cuba had the Soviet Union, the Soviet Bloc and other Tin Pot Socialist Dictatorships to trade with.


-What led to Cuba decline in 90´s was not the US embargo, but the fall of USSR, which was Cuba´s main trade partner. And the relative performance of Cuba, despite this disastrous event, was fairly good. GDP contracted by 20-30% (much better than the former USSR) and there was no excess mortality (capitalist reforms in Russia alone led to an excess of mortality near 3-5 million people, of course, capitalism has nothing with them...). On US embrago, I didn´t study the details, but It seems US embargo also hits foreign enterprises which trade with Cuba, so it can hurt more than you think (I´m uncertain, however)


Socialism=Horseshit


-I´m deeply impressed with the intellectual depth of this statement.



If you read the article it simply stated this: Of the 2115 most if not all were terrorists plotting against the government...and this is provably so.


-Yeah, terrorists plotting against their own government......did you forget the let parties were in charge before 1973?

Anyone who talks about "communism" as good after the last century has no right to complain about "human lives" get real, read a book and learn some history.


-Right...do the same for capitalism. I suggest you King Leopold´s Ghost and then Late Victorian Holocaust.


Also worth noting...Allenda won 38% of the electorate when he was voted in...Pinochet was kicked out of office but retained a 48% share of the vote.


-The diference is that Allende´s Chile was democratic, so elections were fair, while Chile under Pinochet was a dictatorship, with restrictions placed on oppositions parties.
By bach
#23393
Afelon, Simon Ostap is quite right when he quotes the following, yet you are right as well.

In the eyes of the international investors Pinochet was a great guy, he disciplined and terrorized the population, therefore allowing multinationals and foreign investment to exploit the poor people's cheap labor. Now I know many would say, "but still this people make more money while being paid by multinational giants", sure they do, but these multinationals not only get cheap labor, THEY GET CHEAP RESOURCES, somehow they still the countrie's resources leaving just the tips, and taking all the profit.

Quote:

Economically, Chile experienced a profound change. Pinochet re-established the productive system, liberalized the economy, and privatized many state companies. He funneled social expenditures toward the weaker stratums of society using innovative policies, and as a result, all social indicators, such as life expectancy, adult literacy, and the human development index noticeably improved. Chile served as the beacon for socioeconomic development for in Latin America, and for crumbling European societies behind the wall, as well.
By briansmith
#23394
I would have to say that Allende's government was far more legitimate than Pinochet's, but -- in their own ways -- both were... not so great. Dictators are dictators, and the sad thing is that sometimes dictators are elected. :p
By Freedom
#23476
What led to Cuba decline in 90´s was not the US embargo, but the fall of USSR, which was Cuba´s main trade partner. And the relative performance of Cuba, despite this disastrous event, was fairly good. GDP contracted by 20-30% (much better than the former USSR) and there was no excess mortality (capitalist reforms in Russia alone led to an excess of mortality near 3-5 million people, of course, capitalism has nothing with them...). On US embrago, I didn´t study the details, but It seems US embargo also hits foreign enterprises which trade with Cuba, so it can hurt more than you think (I´m uncertain, however)


YEah i ment to add about the fall of the USSR anyways i was answering Simon Ostaps comment on the sanctions.

Quote:

Socialism=Horseshit


-I´m deeply impressed with the intellectual depth of this statement.


There is an economics forum if you want to discuss Socialist Economics there thats okay.


Right...do the same for capitalism. I suggest you King Leopold´s Ghost and then Late Victorian Holocaust.


I've talked about Leopold a few times on this site, i hate the guy...only difference is i dont hold him in reverence like you communists hold Stalin...so there is a difference...


The diference is that Allende´s Chile was democratic, so elections were fair, while Chile under Pinochet was a dictatorship, with restrictions placed on oppositions parties.


I do believe that the oppositions parties were okay, at least according to the above sources as long as they didnt dissolve into militarism. Also the article mentions documents that implicate Allende in his own coup attempt(or plans for a)...of course we may never know...

Lie! Chile already had good living standards as relative to other Latin American countries before 1973. Just go to undp.org to look at Chilean (and other) statistics. Pinochet policies resulted in massive impoverishment. By 1987, 40% of Chilean population lived on poverty. Economic growth in Pinochet years was also mediocre (alternating periods of strong growth with the devastating recession of early 80´s). Chile had the second worse levels of unequality in LA (first is Brazil). Much of the gains in Human development actually happened AFTER Pinochet, under the coalition of Christian democrats and socialists (this was really a period of strong growth and improvement in living conditions, althought unequality remained untouched). On the other hand, it could be said that Pinochet´s economic policies were kept by those parties. Nowadays, Chile still is growing, but at relatively small rates, while unemployment is growing and the absence of a public social security system threatens the future of many people (social security in Chile was privatized, and has universal coverage, but only 50% of the population is adding money to their individual accounts)


I guess i can concede this point...although...one question on this...was the 40% statistic of poverty in 1987 only in 1987 or were other years similar(seriously i'm interested)

Bah... this is the last time i rely on Internet sources...at least when i defend America i can actually read the damned documents relating to the event...

Serious question: Can anyone tell me sources to get Declassified documents from any governemt outside the USA?
By Gothmog
#23482
I've talked about Leopold a few times on this site, i hate the guy...only difference is i dont hold him in reverence like you communists hold Stalin...so there is a difference...


-Not all communists hold Stalin in reverence. I´m not one of them. However, it is clearly that under Stalin, USSR advanced a lot, despite the horrible cost in human suffering, and also despite having faced a attempt of extermination (the NAZI agression). On Pinochet´s Chile, you can say that the human cost wasn´t so high, but:
1-Pinochet destroyed a democracy, unlike Stalin
2-Economic growth under Pinochet was not very impressive, despite right wing propaganda


I guess i can concede this point...although...one question on this...was the 40% statistic of poverty in 1987 only in 1987 or were other years similar(seriously i'm interested)


-Most of this data I got in my local press. Current poverty statistics point to around 20% of poverty. The UNDP site mentions 8,7%, but this estimates don´t match well with Chile´s per capita GDP (marginally better than in Brazil) and Ginni index (close to Brazil). This data points to overall poverty level in Chile being around 20% (30% in Brazil). I will try to get better data, as soon my cable Internet is reinstalled.
By Gothmog
#23487
-As I promised, there are some articles you can study here. I suggest you the last of them you you want a extensive account of Chile economy under Pinochet.


http://poverty.worldbank.org/library/view/11513/

Chile remains one of the outstanding countries in Latin America in terms of its record in reducing poverty. A combination of strong growth and well directed social programs have combined to reduce the poverty rate in half during a period of just eleven years. This study shows that previously noted trends in falling poverty, in terms of incidence, depth and severity, continued into 1998. As a result, only 17% of the population now lives in poverty (compared to 40% in 1987), while those living in extreme poverty are barely 4% of the population.

This report focuses on updating the situation between 1994 (the previous Bank report) and 1998. The analysis shows that there was unambiguously less poverty between 1994 and 1998 than in all earlier years, whether poverty is measured by the headcount, the poverty deficit or by any of the most sensitive poverty indices. The reductions in poverty observed between 1994 and 1998 are observed at all levels of income, in including those in the very extreme tail of the distribution.


My remarks: 1997 was the last year of high GDP growth in Chile. Since then, they´re having
mediocre economic growth, which may have changed poverty rates.

http://www.undp.org/rblac/documents/pov ... 042000.pdf

....it is estimated that 40% of the Chileans are withouth pensions or withouth meaningful pensions....


This site is mandatory for those who want to study Chile history. If you´re really interested in serious study instead of anticommunist rantings, make a visit there
http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/index.htm
http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/chile0.htm


http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/econom~1.htm (very interesting)

SUMMARY: So what was the record for the entire Pinochet regime? Between 1972 and 1987, the GNP per capita fell 6.4 percent. (13) In constant 1993 dollars, Chile's per capita GDP was over $3,600 in 1973. Even as late as 1993, however, this had recovered to only $3,170. (14) Only five Latin American countries did worse in per capita GDP during the Pinochet era (1974-1989). (15) And defenders of the Chicago plan call this an "economic miracle."
By Wilhelm
#25242
I am not saying capitalism is right, or socialism is wrong.

But, some people complain abotu Pinochet, while he was the right-wing version of Stalin. Both of them killed lots of people, and the excuse is that they brought a backwards nation forward.

It is seen that fsacist dictators achieve much more than socialist dictators, and that is a simple fact, the simple truth. Lok at Franco, Hitler, Mussolini. Then look at Stalin, Castro. All of them killed people, but made their countries progress.

What I'm saying is, don't complain about the right wing dictators if you are not going to recognize the faults of socialist dictators.
By Gothmog
#25253
Wilhelm wrote:
It is seen that fsacist dictators achieve much more than socialist dictators, and that is a simple fact, the simple truth. Lok at Franco, Hitler, Mussolini. Then look at Stalin, Castro. All of them killed people, but made their countries progress.


-You´re wrong in your examples (but not in your reasoning). Hitler didn´t bring progress to his people. Of course, he ended the depression in Germany, but this was only achieved by spending massive amounts of money in the planning of an agression war that proved disastrous for Germany. In other words, when Hitler died, his country was in worse shape than when he took power. Economic performance of Mussolini´s Italy was also ridiculous. I´m not expert in Franco´s Spain. Stálin´s USSR achieved strong growth rates and improvement in living standards (despite WWII), and USSR by 1953 was much better than by 1924. Cuba had mediocre economic performance, but good IDH performance under Castro. Look to General Park (South Korea) and Chiang Kai Chek (Taiwan, but not China, where he was a very poor leader) if you want to see progressive right wing dictators.
By Inti
#26141
Freedom wrote:Now i've been researching the military coup in Chile, as this is often used by Left Wing parrots to attack America etc. Know before i researched Pinochet i knew he had killed and used extradjusical methods to round up people, so i never thought i'd end up actually supporting Pinochet, at least partially, for what he done for Chile. Also i thought it'd be a controversial matter to kick start the South America forum.

Note: Heavy on Anti Communism :)

GENERAL PINOCHET
HERO OF THE CHILEAN PEOPLE


No one alive today is more loathed by the Communists and their fellow travelers and camp followers than Chilean General and former President Augusto Pinochet Ugarte. The reasons are two fold. Pinochet defeated the hated Communist terrorist militias, the internationally armed financed, and staffed "revolutionaries" on the battlefield and by doing so, ended their attempt to communize Chile in the name of "the people". Pinochet then "transformed" Chile into a peaceful democracy with one of the most prosperous economies in the region. With an extraordinary record of achievement in social and economic reform, the establishment of democratic institutions, and a free election, Pinochet retired in 1990 leaving a grateful Chilean people free of the terror of International Socialism, probably forever.
The pro Communist media is filled with lackeys willing to lie and prostitute their souls either for career advancement or because they are true believers in the Communist faith. That they have been effective with their "atrocity propaganda" against Pinochet is testament to the enduring influence of the Communist idea amongst the world's power elite. They have, so far, pulled off the Big Lie with regard to Pinochet except with Chilean people. The Communist, of course, approaches atrocity dialectically rather than fundamentally. They have no problem with atrocities when governments such as those of Castro, Stalin, Mao, Paul Pot et al commit them, as these "struggles", they inform us, are for the "common good" as they liquidate tens of millions.

An excellent example of this is Willy Meyer, parliamentary spokesman for Izquerida Unida, the renamed Communist Party of Spain. Meyer, commenting on the arrest of Pinochet in Britain, stated that "We do not consider that Fidel Castro is a dictator. We respect the Marxist-Leninist legality by whose definition political persecution, torture, and disappearances cannot exist in Cuba. We are dividing the world between good guys and bad guys There is a vacuum in the international enforcement of human rights and we realize that whoever seizes the initiative to punish violators wins the high ground". An excellent source for further information is an article by William Jasper, New American Vol. 15 No 19 PP 23-34.

Obviously, the left has no moral or practical right to discuss atrocity since they recognize it only dialectically and not actually. Their insufferable caterwauling concerning "human rights" is the equivalent of Hitler, their National Socialist comrade, complaining about anti-Semitism.

Pinochet was at war with a force that would stop at nothing to achieve victory, which would have amounted to complete subjugation under a Communist jack-boot. This truly was, to paraphrase Meyer, a battle between good guys and bad guys. The Pinochet coup was a defensive action and a direct response to formal requests by the Judiciary, the Legislature, and prominent citizens for military intervention as the situation under Salvador Allende were rapidly deteriorating. By 1980, the Chilean people voted 68% to approve a new constitution presented by the Pinochet government. This was the first step on the heroic road to the Republican democracy Chile is today.

Allende will be covered in coming weeks, however, it must be pointed out that documents and arms captured after Allende was overthrown, Sept. 11, 1973 proved that he was planning a coup of his own scheduled for Sept. 19, and to liquidate his opposition Castro style. Pinochet, who had served Allende as Army Chief of Staff during his three years in power, acted strictly out of a sense of duty and honor, and at great personal risk given Allende's extensive Gestapo, to save his nation from catastrophe. Pinochet was the quintessential career military man and had no ambition to involve himself in civilian affairs. Due to a traditional Latin American code of honor, he felt he had no choice.

On Sept 8, days after the coup, at a ceremony at the Church of National Gratitude, three former Chilean presidents endorsed the Pinochet government. Socialist Gabriel Gonzalez Videla stated "I have no words to thank the armed forces for having freed us from the clutches of Marxism. They have saved us because the totalitarian apparatus that was prepared to destroy us has been itself destroyed" Eduardo Frei, himself a Marxist, stated "The military has saved Chile from civil war being prepared by the Marxists. And that is what the world does not know, refuses to know".

Pinochet, once in power, acted with amazing restraint toward those who were plotting a Communist takeover. Allende declined his offer of safe passage and instead chose suicide. He deported thousands of Communist foreigners who were planning firing squads if they achieved power, and released Chilean citizens involved in treasonous activities including the dangerous KGB and Cuban agent, as well as darling of the American left establishment, Orlando Letelier.

Under the guidance of University of Chicago economists, the Pinochet government cleared out economic regulations, reduced tariffs from 100% to 10% and returned businesses and property, "expropriated" by Allende, to the rightful owners. Foreign investment poured in as confidence and stability returned. Taxes and inflation were reduced, Social Security was privatized, and government bureaucrats were able to find jobs in a thriving private sector. Our American government could learn some valuable lessons from Chile.

A relentless war was waged against Pinochet and the Chilean people during the years, 1973-1990. Bill Jasper points out that in 1984 alone, there were 735 terrorist bombings with responsibility claimed by the Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (MRPF) the Communist cadre supported by Cuba, Nicaragua, Libya, East Germany, and the Soviet Union. On Sept. 7, 1986, Pinochet and his 10-year-old grandson narrowly escaped an ambush by Communists armed with automatic rifles, rocket launchers, bazookas, and grenades. Many terrorists and their supporters were killed in this war of attrition both by Pinochet's forces and by civilians seeking vengeance and. given the situation, many of their bodies went unidentified. Jasper states that "we have seen no evidence to sustain the charges that Pinochet ordered, knew of, or approved of, any plan for the use of murder or torture against his political opponents".

In 1988, Pinochet called for elections and a return to civilian rule. In an unprecedented move, he retired from public life in 1990 a hero to freedom loving Chileans. Communism makes inroads during economic crisis and often employs violence and terror as well to make the argument for totalitarianism. Allende deliberately created dire economic conditions and introduced an unprecedented level of violence so as to create the right "conditions" for a Castro style takeover. His dastardly plot was dashed by the heroic efforts of General Pinochet. The blood soaked, International Communist behemoth was defeated and for this, they will forever despise General Pinochet.


I'll post more articles and if i can find them declassified documents on the matter.


Im speechless.. You call that friggin Pinochet a hero??

Read this

Types of Human Rights Violations

1973 - 1990

The types of repression used in Chile by the military regime included: arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, torture, forced disappearances, summary executions, collective executions, the negation of the right to appeal War Council sentences, homicide, exile, internal exile, abduction, intimidation, attempted homicide, death treats, raids, dismissal from jobs and surveillance. Such treatment violated the following rights: the right to life, the right to personal integrity, the right to personal liberty, the right to personal security and the right to live in one’s country.


Violation of the right to life:

Death. Carried out through executions, after being made to disappear, through torture, in alleged armed confrontations, premeditated homicide, abuse of power and others.
Disappearances.
"Can anyone explain why Alejandro was sentenced to die without a trial? Why were his remains buried clandestinely in Army property? Why were his detention, murder and burial concealed for 15 years? Who is responsible..."


Violation of the right to physical integrity:

Torture. Various methods of torture: physical and psychological, electrocution, sexual violence, blows, forced intake of drugs, burning, immersion in liquids.
Cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
Frustrated homicide attempts.
Wounding.

Violation of the right to personal freedom:

Arbitrary detentions. Selective, individual arrests, and arrests during protests, mass raids and kidnappings.
Political prisoners.
Internal exile, to distant and isolatedplaces.

Violation of the right to personal security:

Harassment and threats.
Raids.

Violation of the right to live in one’s country:

Exile.
Refugees.
State Terrorism

The application of the National Security Doctrine by the state during the 1973 to 1990 period culminated in the most systematic and massive violation of human rights in Chile’s recent history. The following is a brief description of some cases which characterize the types of state terrorism applied throughout the 17 years of military rule:

- The bombing of the presidential palace La Moneda on September 11, 1973, in which President Salvador Allende dies before his ministers and collaborators are detained and many of them killed or disappeared.

- The execution of seven people arrested in Curacaví on September 17, 1973. Out of the seven people that are taken away to be executed, two survive. One of these, José Barrera, after finding out through the Defense Ministry that he is no longer wanted, stops living a clandestine life and returns to Curacaví in March 1974, only to be arrested once more. He becomes one of the disappeared.

- The execution of 19 people from Laja and San Rosendo by Carabineros police from Laja. They are executed September 18, 1973, on the road to Los Angeles and their bodies concealed.

- Jose Gabriel Campos Morales, a 26 year old farm worker and union leader, was at home when soldiers arrested him on September 18, 1973. Taken initially to the Linares public jail, he was later brought to Investigations police headquarters in Constitucion, from which place he was not seen or heard from since.

- The execution of 18 rural workers from Paine September 24, 1973 by officials from the San Bernardo regiment.

- The execution of an estimated 22 people in the southern city of Valdivia in October, 1973 by Army personnel.

- The execution of six political prisoners shot while allegedly trying to escape, in Pisagua, September 30, 1973.

- The execution of four university students in Cauquenes, October 3, 1973 by local military personnel.

- The execution of 13 farm workers in Mulchén in October, 1973 by a group of Carabineros police, military personnel and civilians.

- The execution of 72 political prisoners between October 15 and 19, 1973 in the cities of La Serena, Copiapó, Antofagasta and Calama, at the hands of the so-called "Caravan of Death," a military delegation headed by General Sergio Arellano Stark.

- The death March 14, 1974, of Air Force General Alberto Bachelet as a result of torture.

- An elementary school teacher and former secretary to a Communist member of Congress, Elsa Victoria Leuthner Munoz, who was married and mother of three, was apprehended by agents of the DINA secret police while at a friend's house. Her whereabouts have been unknown since the time of her arrest on August 15, 1974.

- Death of former Army head General Carlos Prats and his wife Sofía Cuthbert in Buenos Aires, Argentina September 29, 1974, as a result of a car bomb.

- Publication July 23, 1974, in Brazil and Argentina of a list of 119 disappeared Chileans who were reported dead in alleged internal MIR party purges and alleged armed confrontations.

- Murder of Spanish diplomat Carmelo Soria in July, 1976. His tortured and strangled body was found in a canal July 16. His death occurred at the hands of DINA agents.

- Homicide of former Chilean UP minister Orlando Letelier September 21, 1976, in Washington, D.C. as a result of a car bomb, which also killed his US assistant, Ronnie Moffitt.

- Death of journalism student Eduardo Jara Aravena July 23, 1980, as a result of prolonged torture by Covema a paramilitary organization supporting Pinochet, which kidnapped Jara along with a number of other people suspected of being involved in the July 15 murder of Army intelligence head, Coronel Roger Vergara.

- Homicide by stabbing and shooting of union leader Tucapel Jímenez, February 25, 1982.

- Twelve-year-old Francisco Antonio Fuenzalida died in his home March 27, 1984, from a bullet fired from a helicopter by Carabineros police attempting to disperse a neighborhood protest in Santiago against the military regime.

- Death of Loreto Castillo, May 16, 1984. The victim is tied to an electricity pylon and blown up with dynamite.

- Kidnapping and murder of three Communist Party members, Manuel Guerrero, Jose Manuel Parada and Santiago Nattino. All three are found with their throats slit March 29, 1985.

- Death of young brothers Rafael and Eduardo Vergara, both of whom are shot by Carabineros police March 29, 1985 on a Santiago street. On the same day, 20-year old Paulina Aguirre is shot dead by CNI agents.

- The young photographer, Rodrigo Rojas is burnt to death on a Santiago street by a military patrol July 2, 1986. At the same time, Carmen Gloria Quintana is also doused with petrol and burnt alive. She survives with horrifying burns to 60 % of her body. Rodrigo Rojas was one of seven people killed on July 2 and 3, 1986 while participating in street protests against the military regime.

- Kidnapping and shooting to death of four opponents of the regime: José Carrasco, Abraham Muskablit, Felipe Rivera and Gastón Vidaurrázaga. They are killed between September 8 and 9, 1986, by armed civilians calling themselves the "September 11 Commando" who claim to be taking vengeance for a failed attempt the day before on Pinochet’s life by members of the Manuel Rodríguez Patriotic Front (FPMR).

- Twelve members of the FPMR are murdered by the CNI between June 15 and 16, 1987 in Santiago in the so-called "Albania Operation," otherwise known as the "Corpus Christi Massacre."

- Death by shooting of MIR party leader Jecar Neghme September 4, 1989 in Santiago.
Who were the victims?

In the months immediately following the regime, the majority of those who become victims of the violation of human rights were:

- Leaders and collaborators of the Popular Unity government

- People who sympathized or were suspected or accused of sympathizing with the UP government

- Leaders, members and sympathizers of leftist political parties, that is, the Revolutionary Left Movement, (MIR), the Communist Party (PC), the Socialist Party (PS), the Christian Left (IC), the MAPU; some members of the Radical Party (PR) and the Christian Democrats (PDC) also became victims at this stage

- Trade Union leaders and workers

- In the countryside, leaders and sympathizers of the agrarian reform movement were targeted as well as people accused or perceived to be sympathizers of the left

- The family members and close friends of the above groups of victims were also targeted by the regime’s repressive agencies

- The regime also targeted representatives from the cultural world, intellectuals and university personnel and students

- Military personnel, ranging from conscripts to high-ranking officers, including a former commander in chief who opposed the military coup and the actions of the repressive agencies, also became victims of violations of all the human rights mentioned above

Throughout the regime, the above named continued to be targets of repression.


As the opposition to the regime began to take shape and Chile’s political parties and social organizations started to organize in the mid 70's and into the 80's, repression by agents of the state was aimed at members of other organizations such as:

- Human rights activists.

- Members of organizations created by relatives of victims of executions, forced disappearances and political imprisonment.

- Religious leaders and members of religious movements who opposed the regime.

- Members of the armed opposition to Pinochet’s regime, for instance the Manuel Rodríguez Patriotic Front.

- Members of leftist social and political organizations which sprang up as opposition to the regime.

- The family members and friends of the aforementioned groups, also became subject to arrest, imprisonment, torture, vigilance, exile, internal exile among other violations of human rights.


During the 1980’s, arrests, physical violence and shooting deaths became common during the national protests which emerged and gained strength during the period.

The report of the National Truth and Reconciliation Commission, created in 1991 by the civilian government of Patricio Aylwin, also identified a group of victims it categorized as "victims of political violence." In other words, throughout the period of military rule, not all the victims were targeted beforehand. For instance, the Rettig Report cites a number of deaths which occurred as a result of shooting by military personnel on bystanders and pedestrians during raids and protests. It also cites deaths resulting from stray military bullets which penetrated the walls of the victims’ homes, as well as victims killed for violating the curfew imposed by the military
Statistics

(From the book La memoria y el olvido: Detenidos Desaparecidos en Chile
by Elias Padilla, 1995, Ediciones Origenes.)

So widespread was the repression unleashed upon Chile’s population, that some sectors immediately organized in order to assist the victims of human rights violations, despite the real dangers this posed. By doing so - organizations such as the Catholic church’s Comité para la Paz (Peace Committee), created in October 1973, and the Vicaria de la Solidaridad, founded January 1976, as well as a large number of non-government organizations - managed to collect data and information which to the present date give an insight into the extensive scope of repression carried out by agents of the state.

From March 1974 onward, the Comité para la Paz began to receive large numbers of protective writs from family members of people imprisoned or disappeared. By the end of 1974, the Committee had received 1,341 such writs. From 1976 -1985 the Vicaria assisted 34,000 people with legal, social, medical or psychotherapeutic assistance.

"According to figures given by the military regime and registered by the Vicaria de la Solidaridad, between 1973 and 1975 there were 42,486 political detentions. Also, according to the Vicaria, between 1976 to 1988, 12,134 people were individually arrested for political reasons and 26,431 collective arrests took place. Between 1977 to 1988 4,134 persons were threatened or harassed, 1,008 were victims of forced disappearance and 2,100 people died for political reasons." (Estado, Poder, Persona, Vol. II, CODEPU, 1995)

The Latin American Institute on Mental Health and Human Rights (ILAS), created in 1988 with the aim of assisting victims of human rights violations, estimates that 10 % of the total population of Chile in the early 1980s was affected by a repressive situation. ILAS defines a "repressive situation", as arrests for any length of time, threats, a relative in prison, killed or disappeared, as well as expulsion for political reasons from the place of work or university. ILAS cautions that this figure is conservative. Of this total ILAS believes "situations of extreme trauma" affected some 200,000 persons, a figure derived from the numbers of prisoners in detention camps until 1975, persons forced into exile, persons tortured, executed or disappeared, and their immediate family.

The Rettig Report and the National Corporation for Reconciliation and Reparation, established January 3, 1992 to continue the work of the Rettig Commission, concluded in 1996 that:

- A total of 3,197 people died or went missing between September 11, 1973 and March 11, 1990 as a result of human rights violations at the hands of the state agents of repression.

- Of these 1,102 classify as disappeared and 2,095 as deaths.

The Rettig Report and the National Corporation for Reconciliation and Reparation only investigated those cases which concluded in death or disappearance. They did not take into account the thousands of cases of torture and imprisonment which took place during the period of military rule.

But better as I said, read the link

http://www.lakota.clara.net/derechos/victims.htm
By Freedom
#26204
Im speechless.. You call that friggin Pinochet a hero??

Read this

Types of Human Rights Violations


First of all, no i didnt, the article i qouted did ;)

As far as human rights violations go, this is absolutely meaningless. In the end of the day if you are a Communist you will at one time or another give support to a country with similar or worse Human Rights abuses. If you are a RightWinger you will probably ignore the human rights abuses of one country because your priorities are another country. Dont try and argue like your some super human all caring person.

Also i posted an other version of the history of Pinochets Chile, to see if it was true, and what has happened? I agree neither with the ultra Pinochet haterz nor the ultra Pinochet supporters, i'm in the middle. Thus the theory of intelligent debate has worked: Post something, someone intelligent replies with some contrary facts etc
By Inti
#26224
Freedom wrote:
Im speechless.. You call that friggin Pinochet a hero??

Read this

Types of Human Rights Violations


First of all, no i didnt, the article i qouted did ;)

As far as human rights violations go, this is absolutely meaningless. In the end of the day if you are a Communist you will at one time or another give support to a country with similar or worse Human Rights abuses. If you are a RightWinger you will probably ignore the human rights abuses of one country because your priorities are another country. Dont try and argue like your some super human all caring person.

Also i posted an other version of the history of Pinochets Chile, to see if it was true, and what has happened? I agree neither with the ultra Pinochet haterz nor the ultra Pinochet supporters, i'm in the middle. Thus the theory of intelligent debate has worked: Post something, someone intelligent replies with some contrary facts etc


Ok, but when I see people looking up to Pinochet as a Hero I freak out... He is a murderer >:

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