[MadMonk]

Saying your points are wrong isn't being "deaf" to them

Even here, I would like to know how can neoliberalism be to blame for Argentina's addiction to IMF loans when this cycle began before neoliberal economists like Milton Friedman had any significant influence in policy-making circles.

Argentina’s quarter century experiment with neoliberalism: from dictatorship to depression

Argentina set a new historical mark in 2002, having experienced the largest debt default by any country ever. In order to understand how Argentina could go from one of the most developed countries of the Third World, to experiencing the crisis of 2001 and then enter a depression in 2002 with over half the population living in poverty, requires an evaluation of the last quarter century of economic policies in Argentina. The shift toward neoliberalism began during the dictatorship of 1976, deepened during the Menem administration, and was supported throughout by the IMF. This paper aims to identify why the crisis occurred when it did, but also to understand how the underlying shifts in the political economy of Argentina over more than two decades led to two waves of deindustrialization, an explosion of foreign debt and such a marked decline in the standard of living for the majority of Argentinians.

The Failures of Neoliberalism in Argentina

In the wake of the 1970 crisis, neoliberalism emerged as the dominant approach to economic development throughout the world. As a region faced with particularly difficult economic challenges, even Latin America has not been spared from the pervasiveness and dominance of neoliberal policy. Rooted in neoclassical theory, the arrival of neoliberalism displaced Latin American contributions for development that predominated during the postwar period, which highlighted the importance of the state in directing an industrialization strategy that allows peripheral economies to develop. In the case of Argentina, neoliberalism was supposed to overcome structural heterogeneity and economic unbalances inherited from state-led industrialization through policies oriented to liberalize the economy and downsize the state. However, contrary to these suppositions, neoliberalism tended to reinforce the peripheral positioning of Argentina in the global economy, as well as to deepen social and economic inequality.

[wat0n]

Argentina’s quarter century experiment with neoliberalism: from dictatorship to depression



The Failures of Neoliberalism in Argentina

Argentina was already addicted to IMF bailouts by then. Menem, by the way, only applied the neoliberal book when it suited him. He never made a real effort to rein in the deficit, because that meant cutting social spending and hiking taxes.

It seems Milei may be willing to do so. We'll see.

[QatzelOk]

Could you explain how appointing a family member is corruption?

I think Ali Bongo could probably explain this better than anyone on this forum.

In Gabon, the oil-rich country that he ruled over, most people are still very poor, unemployed and 15% of adults are still illiterate. He wasted all the state's funds and hired his relatives in order to keep state cash in his family's hands, instead of using it to develop the entire nation.

[Tainari88]

I think Ali Bongo could probably explain this better than anyone on this forum.

In Gabon, the oil-rich country that he ruled over, most people are still very poor, unemployed and 15% of adults are still illiterate. He wasted all the state's funds and hired his relatives in order to keep state cash in his family's hands, instead of using it to develop the entire nation.

Boom there it is. Boom there it is.

If you use the funds to enrich your families and cronies and not dedicate the funds to developing the nation and its needs? You are just a corrupt lousy leader like all the other nepotism freaks in charge of nations.

[wat0n]

I can't believe someone in this forum legitimately doesn't understand why appointing family members to public office isn't a form of corruption or at least makes it a lot more likely to happen.

[Tainari88]

Argentina’s quarter century experiment with neoliberalism: from dictatorship to depression



The Failures of Neoliberalism in Argentina

I have been explaining this to @wat0n but he does not connect the dots. He really can't bring himself to realize that the whole neoliberal agenda SUCKS. It has destroyed the economies of many Third World nations. Including Argentina's.

Why continue with these failed bad policies? I would not.

[wat0n]

I have been explaining this to @wat0n but he does not connect the dots. He really can't bring himself to realize that the whole neoliberal agenda SUCKS. It has destroyed the economies of many Third World nations. Including Argentina's.

Why continue with these failed bad policies? I would not.

Is Chile a neoliberal country?

What I can't believe is that people don't connect the dots between the post-Menem policies in Argentina, under the Kirchners, and the current crisis & election of Milei.

[Tainari88]

I can't believe someone in this forum legitimately doesn't understand why appointing family members to public office isn't a form of corruption or at least makes it a lot more likely to happen.

I forget if Instanbuller is in Egypt? Lol. Egypt is high on the corruption index. Nepotism is rampant there. It is common for many corrupt governments to place their family members in leadership roles in their administrations. Hmm, Trump had some family members in cabinet positions right? Poor Jared Kushner and so on...Ivanka. Eric and Donald Jr....why oh why do nepotism types all become corrupt and everyone is surprised...?

Come on now.

Clinton was smart. His daughter Chelsea married a banker and she got a plumb job right out of college graduation working for a bank making big bucks. He never appointed her to a position in his administration though. Hee hee.

Now you had some American presidential nepotism dynasties there. John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Father and son. Bush Sr and Bush Jr. The Bush family had a family legacy. Lol.

Nepotism is not restricted to Latin American dictatorships or African dictatorships. No. It is about connections. John F. Kennedy would have had a nepotism presidency if Robert Kennedy had not been gunned down in Los Angeles and taken out of rotation. So there are nepotism tendencies in the American political class.

[Tainari88]

Is Chile a neoliberal country?

What I can't believe is that people don't connect the dots between the post-Menem policies in Argentina, under the Kirchners, and the current crisis & election of Milei.

I never liked Menem. I never approved of a bunch of leaders in Argentina's history. I frankly think the Argentinos are way too fascist in general. They need to be a lot more leftist and do leftist policy that works. Not what they keep following which is trying to do economics through Yankee recommendations. The Yank recommendations are never good for the economies of anyone but Yankee elitists and investors. I do not know why this is hard for many to understand?

[QatzelOk]

Nepotism is not restricted to Latin American dictatorships or African dictatorships. No. It is about connections...

Nepotism is a big reason why governments fail. Especially when they lead to extreme incompetence, as is the case now with our revolving-door regulatory-capture commercial pillaging of democracy. And it has infected all levels of governance, from the executive down to the bureaucrats:

Canadian Politics Might Have a Nepotism Problem

...The current prime minister, Justin Trudeau, is of course the first son of another prime minister, Pierre Trudeau. And Trudeau is the second Liberal prime minister in a row who was raised by a Liberal Party patriarch. Paul Martin, who was prime minister from 2003 to 2006, was the son of a veteran Liberal cabinet minister who had tried three times for the party leadership...

If you look at Justin Trudeau's resume, you can see that he has never had an interest in politics, has never written about them, has never really participated in them. Until some connection decided to use his family name for marketing purposes...

Obvious nepotism.

...Only 47% of employees surveyed agreed with the statement, “Appointments do not depend on who you know.” Findings were based on questionnaires with 75,440 federal workers,

These results were despite the fact nepotism is considred a firing offence in the public service. Blacklock’s said findings of the 2021 Staffing And Non-Partisanship Survey found managers dismissed widespread perceptions of favouritism and insisted hiring practices were ethical.

As our late-capitalist societies sink into depression, nepotism will become an even more important way for the rich to stay rich. Unless someone stops them...

The chainsaw-in-Argentina will be used to cut-down the poor and marginal, not the rich nepotists.

[wat0n]

I never liked Menem. I never approved of a bunch of leaders in Argentina's history. I frankly think the Argentinos are way too fascist in general. They need to be a lot more leftist and do leftist policy that works. Not what they keep following which is trying to do economics through Yankee recommendations. The Yank recommendations are never good for the economies of anyone but Yankee elitists and investors. I do not know why this is hard for many to understand?

Argentina has never quite followed Yank recommendations. Menem only partially followed the Washington Consensus policies.

He never quite managed to rein the government budget deficit in, for example. Specially towards the end of his administration.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC ... cations=AR

[QatzelOk]

Milei is making austerity "un-protestable" in hopes of having a free hand to transfer assets from the poor to the rich.

...Argentina’s whacko new President Javier Milei has announced that his government will cut all social assistance to any citizen who “promotes, instigates, organizes or participates in street protests against his austerity program of ‘shock therapy.’ According to a Lancet study “shock therapy” privatization killed millions in the former Soviet Union and reduced the life expectancy of Russian men from 65 years in 1988 to less than 60 years by 2006…who would want to protest that?...

According to Scott Ritter, pro-Western Russian leader Boris Yeltsin made quite a name for himself (and for neo-liberalism) with his own Austerity program aimed at enriching oligarchs. One of his oligarch-enriching programs involved removing senior citizens from their formerly state-assigned housing, marching them to the edge of town and killing them, thus freeing up their apartments for real estate transactions:

...Khairullin recalls one assignment, in the early 1990s, where he traveled to “a small Ural town” to investigate an allegation of particular cruelty. “Lonely old people who remembered the Great Patriotic War (WWII) were evicted from their apartments throughout all the Russia,” Khairullin recalled.

“This happened everywhere — Moscow, Balashikha, St. Petersburg, Ufa, Kazan, Vladivostok…but in big cities, old people were spared, forced to assign these damned apartments to new owners and then evicted to live in some abandoned villages. In small towns, old people were simply mowed down.”...

I wonder if Milei will also "lubricate the market" by killing senior citizens and giving their homes to pension funds. It worked for Yeltsin.... He was loved and adored by the West... a real pet.


PRICED TO CLEAR! Two-bedroom aparment with bath for rent.
Formerly state-funded, recently-renovated following sudden death of previous tenant.
Send application to Friends-of-Yeltsin Jackpot Holdings, PO box...

[Puffer Fish]

...street protests against his austerity program of ‘shock therapy.’ According to a Lancet study “shock therapy” privatization killed millions in the former Soviet Union and reduced the life expectancy of Russian men from 65 years in 1988 to less than 60 years by 2006…

Argentina doesn't have a lot of other options at this point.

explanation in this thread:
If we run deficits now, it means cuts in the future

For those not aware of the recent economic situation in Argentina, here's a primer:
Argentina raises interest rates to 97% to fight rampant inflation

He really can't bring himself to realize that the whole neoliberal agenda SUCKS. It has destroyed the economies of many Third World nations. Including Argentina's.
Why continue with these failed bad policies? I would not.

I agree that "neoliberalism" is bad.
But, does the blame for the current problems really lie with neoliberalism?
Or was it the Leftist tendency to keep overspending what is to blame for the present situation Argentina finds itself in.

They are in more debt than they can handle, and they have a huge inflation problem.
When the debt grew too big, they started printing the money instead of borrowing it, but then that eventually triggered inflation, and inflation has made the debt very difficult to handle, because the interest rates on that debt start shooting up when lenders fear inflation. Or in this case, since Argentina has had to borrow money in the form of other currencies, it has affected international currency exchange rates, contributing to inflation.

I know the Left just wants to raise taxes and the free market liberals want to cut spending, but the worst thing to do is to increase spending without doing either of those. But that's what Argentina did, so now there is going to be a price to pay.

People are going to die. So it's time people take responsibility. I hope people look at Argentina and not do the same thing in their own countries.

[JohnRawls]

Argentina’s quarter century experiment with neoliberalism: from dictatorship to depression



The Failures of Neoliberalism in Argentina

Argentina was Neoliberal at the start of the 20th century and was one of the most if not the most prosperous country in the world until Peronism took over.

[wat0n]

Classical liberals are not the same as neoliberals.

[JohnRawls]

Classical liberals are not the same as neoliberals.

Fine but economically they are more or less very similar. The difference is perhaps the acceptable size of the state in that debate which is not a very big of a deal. Classical liberalism is a lot more Laizze fair how one would say. So what the current leadership is doing is more inline with classical liberalism than Neoliberalism.

[wat0n]

Fine but economically they are more or less very similar. The difference is perhaps the acceptable size of the state in that debate which is not a very big of a deal. Classical liberalism is a lot more Laizze fair how one would say. So what the current leadership is doing is more inline with classical liberalism than Neoliberalism.

It's not just that, historical classical liberals had a much smaller government than any neoliberal ever dreamed of. They're closer to libertarians than neoliberals.

[QatzelOk]

Argentina doesn't have a lot of other options at this point. ...

...I agree that "neoliberalism" is bad.
But, does the blame for the current problems really lie with neoliberalism?

Argentina was Neoliberal at the start of the 20th century and was one of the most if not the most prosperous country in the world until Peronism took over.

Neoliberalism means that a country stripmines all of its resources as quickly as possible in order to maintain maximum wealth and consumption for both its elite and, to a lesser degree, the masses of tired workers.

But it also exhausts your nation and eventually sends it into poverty.

But guys, let's NEVER learn this and continue to plunder the resources of our own countries with no thought to the future.

We can promote chainsaws and then collapse into civil protest and ruin.

[Puffer Fish]

Neoliberalism means that a country stripmines all of its resources as quickly as possible in order to maintain maximum wealth and consumption for both its elite and, to a lesser degree, the masses of tired workers.

But it also exhausts your nation and eventually sends it into poverty.

I've never heard of a connection between neoliberalism and a policy of using up natural resources.
Are you referring mainly to natural resources?
This doesn't really seem very specific to neoliberalism, as far as I'm aware.

[QatzelOk]

I've never heard of a connection between neoliberalism and a policy of using up natural resources.

Liberalism has the same characteristics, but is out-dated now.

MONEY is what they both have in common. All caps.

"The hunt for money is all that gives a sublimated hunter the will to live."

The entire earth is the prey, and money is the meat of the kill.

When humanity switched to "hunting other humans," our extinction was being announced. Milei seems to be working towards hunting a lot of the Argentinian people in order to enrich his closest allies.

‘Prison or bullet’: new Argentina government promises harsh response to protest

President Javier Milei and his allies are preparing new security guidelines in anticipation of protests against currency devaluation...

“Under the promise of order [the government] seeks to suppress public protest against the effects of official measures,” said the Centre of Legal Studies (CELS) in a statement. “The measures attack the right to protest and criminalize those who demonstrate and persecute social and political organizations.”...

Slaughtering your own people in order to "enrich" the capitalist classes... is hunting behavior, not governance.