Castro's new experiment - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By bach
#26266
This is a country to keep an eye on, because it is very likely to come under civil war.


When Venezuela's leftist President Hugo Chavez announced the launching of an urban gardens programme, he said it would produce jobs and reduce the country's dependence on imported food.

It has. But Mr Chavez may not have bargained that the rows of lettuce, cucumber and mint now thriving amidst the traffic and high-rises of downtown Caracas would also produce a harvest of controversy.

The controversy has arisen because many of the advisers assisting with the gardening programme are Cubans. And Mr Chavez's opponents, who accuse him of desiring to convert Venezuela into a communist dictatorship similar to that led by his friend, Cuban leader Fidel Castro, suspect that the Cubans are here to do more than teach farming.

Chavez critics charge that the Cubans' true goal is to teach communism, spy or even provide paramilitary training to pro-Chavez guerrilla organisations.

"[The Cubans in Venezuela] are persons prepared to indoctrinate," said retired Vice Admiral Rafael Huici, founder of an organisation of retired military officers.

The gardening advisers are only one of several groups of Cubans here. There are also Cuban doctors living and working in Caracas's poorest neighbourhoods, and other Cubans assisting with a nationwide adult literacy programme. Altogether, more than 1,000 Cubans are said to be here working with government-organised programmes.


Opposition parliamentarian Hector Larreal, president of the National Assembly's health subcommittee, says the Cuban doctors are not qualified to practice in Venezuela, and that they prescribe inappropriate medicines and spread communism.

"The worst part about it is that they come with an ideological message to orient the communities towards a failed political system," he said.

The anti-Chavez media has headlined a stream of alleged cases of malpractice by the Cuban doctors. But Mr Chavez's critics, who tried to oust him in 2002 with an aborted military coup and later a crippling petroleum strike, have not backed up their most sensational accusations with evidence.

After nearly five years under his "Bolivarian revolution for the poor", Venezuela has remained firmly capitalistic. But the president has not hidden his admiration for communist Cuba, whose leader is Mr Chavez's closest international ally.

Mr Chavez once famously described Cuba, an impoverished nation where free speech is sharply restricted and independent media banned, as "the sea of happiness".

And the Venezuelan president did not join many other world leaders in criticising the recent jailings of dozens of Cuban democracy activists.

But he denies having any intention of communising his nation. Rather, he says he wants to benefit from Cuba's internationally-recognised achievements in fields such as literacy and health.

Good reviews

On the half-hectare farm plot in central Caracas, squeezed in between a pair of busy avenues and the Hilton Hotel, communist infiltration is not evident.

Members of the 11-person co-operative tending the land say they are not being indoctrinated. And, in fact, the garden sells its produce very capitalistically from a kiosk facing a neighbouring plaza.

In the farm plot's five months' existence, the co-operative's members have harvested some four tonnes of produce from what was previously a piece of barren, weedy land.

The co-operative's members, who are paid by a share of the garden's sales, are previously-unemployed residents of a nearby poor neighbourhood.

"I never imagined that I'd work in this," said Francisco Riqueno, 24, a shoemaker by trade. "I like the physical labour."

The Cuban doctors, too, have produced good reviews in the poor neighbourhoods where they are stationed.

"In my 40 years, there's never been work like (the Cubans) are doing," said Paula Bastidas, a member of the Health Commission of San Augustin neighbourhood.

Ms Bastidas said that before the Cubans' arrival, residents had to travel long distances to public hospitals, which often make poor patients wait hours before being seen.

Solidifying support

Ironically, part of the Cubans' value to Mr Chavez may actually be democratic. On 19 August, Mr Chavez reached the halfway point of his term under the new constitution, making a recall referendum on his rule constitutionally possible.

With the opposition pushing for a vote and the president's popularity falling to about 30% in the polls, the Cuban-inspired initiatives appear to be solidifying support for him among his base of poor Venezuelans.

Across town, Dr Suisberto Fernandez is working in the poor Macayapa neighbourhood, a collection of tin-roofed concrete homes clinging high on a hillside, where he said respiratory troubles, skin infections and adolescent pregnancy are common.

Dr Fernandez said he and the other Cubans are well aware that they are in Venezuela thanks only to Mr Chavez, and that if he falls, the Cubans will surely go, too.

"We came here to help these barrios," Dr Fernandez said. "If we get kicked out, then [the barrio] will remain like it was before - marginalised. Because no Venezuelan doctor ever comes here."




Castro and Venezuela's president

Image
By Nox
#26313
Okay kiddies ... Geography time ... refresher course:

Anyone remember Grenada? Anyone remember where Grenada is? Anyone remember which military forces were involved in Grenada? Anyone remember which country's military forces were there first? Anyone remember why those forces were there and what there objective was?

Do you homework and we'll correct your papers tomorrow.

Nox
By bach
#26324
Nox, Granada and Venezuela are different countries, nevertheless both have come to the same situation, however I dont think this time the US would be able to "rescue" the people. I mean the was already an attempt to overthrow the president and one week later he was back in power.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/gj.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ve.html
By Nox
#26892
bach wrote:Nox, Granada and Venezuela are different countries, nevertheless both have come to the same situation, however I dont think this time the US would be able to "rescue" the people.


I am late in my reply, but it appears that someone failed to do their homework. So we will go over the assignment point by point:

Anyone remember Grenada?

The correct answer is yes ... and you appear to have gotten this one correct.

Anyone remember where Grenada is?

The correct answer: Grenada sits just north of the opening of Maricaibo bay ... from which most of Venezuela's oil export transverses.

Anyone remember which military forces were involved in Grenada?

The correct answer: Cuba and the United States.

Anyone remember which country's military forces were there first?

The correct answer: Cuba ... whose military was building a runway and logistical support area large enough to service the city of Havana (which is a whole bunch mo' bigger than the whole Island of Grenada. The runway was 2.5 times longer than required of any commercial aircraft currently servicing the Caribbean (let alone the mid-80's). But just coincidently, the runway would service military jets (fully loaded combat fighters and bombers) the Cubans possessed.

Anyone remember why those forces were there and what there objective was?

The US forces went in to 'protect' a handful of medical students ... a laughable ploy.

But isn't it interesting the massive armed Cuban force they were up against. The timing is also incredibly coincidental. Cuban forces went into Grenada right after the Soviet Union let them know that the Soviets would no longer give Cuba the favored price on oil for sugar which the Cubans had enjoyed for a couple decades. Now Cuba was faced with a depressed world price for sugar and an inflated cost of oil. They also had a minor problem of what to do with the returning soldiers from Angola.

I realize that the pro-Castro apologists will have some interesting things to say about this ... I look forward to it.

Nox
User avatar
By nateddi
#26896
"Castro's new experiment"?

Are you an idiot? I'm sorry, but this is utterly nonsensical. At the moment, about half of the countries in Latin America, are led by leftist leaders similar to Chavez. Hugo Chavez was popularly elected, than re-elected by a greater landslide. In total, him and his party have won 5 consecutive elections, starting back at late 1998.

Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez have ideological similarities, namely their opposition to neoliberalism (a sentiment shared by many newly elected Latin American leaders), as well as their opposition toward US global hegemony.

Saying that Chavez is a product of Castro is as preposterous as believing that Hussein is a product of Bin Laden (or vice versa).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2510285.stm

This article was written after the consecutive victories of unprecedentedly leftist leaders, Lula da Silva and the Workers' Party in Brazil, Lucio Gutierrez in Ecuador. Since the publishing of the article leftist Nestor Kirchner won presidency against the free-market extremist Carlos Menem in Argentina, FMLN swept the parliamentary elections in El Salvador, Vincente Fox's neoliberals lost majorly in Mexico's parliamentary elections, and Paraguay elected Nicanor Duarte, - another hard leftist who has a fierce opposition toward neoliberalism. The point is, Hugo Chavez is certainly not the only leftist besides Castro in Latin America. He is simply part of a trend of the people in Latin America using democracy to reject the traditional oligarchies and their savage neoliberal policies.
By bach
#26903
I happen to be an idiot who knows very well the region

If there was to be a capital for the think thanks of the left in the world that would be Habana, Cuba, Castro might not direct everything Chavez does, but he and many of the intelectuals who live or visit Cuba, advise him on avery aspect. For that matter if you did not read the artcle it said thousands of cuban workers have being employed by the Venezuelan government.

Saying that Chavez is a product of Castro is as preposterous as believing that Hussein is a product of Bin Laden (or vice versa).


Chavez and Castro both belong to the left, that is a fact, while Hussein and Bin Laden are totally different in every aspect.

I am late in my reply, but it appears that someone failed to do their homework. So we will go over the assignment point by point:


Now, when I said Venezuela cant be compare to Granada I was impliying that it is almost imposible for the US to try to cripple Chavez and his government.
User avatar
By nateddi
#26969
I happen to be an idiot who knows very well the region

I don’t question your knowledge of the region. Merely because of your posts in this forum, it is obvious you are interested in (and therefore assumed to have knowledge about) Latin America. However, the only people who would honestly consider Hugo Chavez, as based alone on his politics as a creation of Fidel Castro, are either a) – idiots, or b) – right wingers who forgot that in an open political discussion they must tone down their “populist = Marxist dictator” rhetoric.


If there was to be a capital for the think thanks of the left in the world that would be Habana, Cuba, Castro might not direct everything Chavez does, but he and many of the intelectuals who live or visit Cuba, advise him on avery aspect.

Do you have any proof of this? It’s understandable that many leftists support the Cuban government, or at least many aspects of it. Regardless, it’s definitely too farfetched to believe that such implies the Cuban governments’ clandestine involvement and planning of leftist movements throughout the hemisphere and the world.

For that matter if you did not read the artcle it said thousands of cuban workers have being employed by the Venezuelan government.

The workers are Cuban DOCTORS, not political scientists or educators. The poor Venezuelan majority cannot afford the price of basic medicine from the mainly upper-class, anti-Chavez doctors of Caracas. Hugo Chavez is giving millions of people cheaper and better health care, this has nothing to do with political indoctrination from Havana. Chavez frequently makes remarks to distance himself from state socialism as well as neoliberalism. The Bolivarian constitution that was ratified with a 71% popular electorate majority is the only constitution that guarantees a possibility of a recall on every elected official. No country, as far as I know, gives such a right. During every “general strike” (lockout of workers by upper-class anti-Chavez business leaders in order to collapse the economy and blame it on Chavez), Chavez has not resorted toward the use of marital law or any strikingly undemocratic measures (which if he had resorted to, would be completely legitimate), even considering that the opposition openly attempts to, and states their support for, an illegal overthrow of his legitimate government. All in all, Chavez is without a doubt as strongly committed toward the freedom of his people as he is committed toward reforming the economy in a more leftist, protectionist way.

Chavez and Castro both belong to the left, that is a fact, while Hussein and Bin Laden are totally different in every aspect.

Chavez and Castro agree on some issues, disagree on others. Hussein and bin Laden, too have similar ideological views, namely their disdain for US imperialism (though they are personal enemies and have different views on other issues). The point is, similar views on certain issues can not be used to draw a conclusion that one leader is a puppet of the other. Right-wingers should save their rhetoric of labeling all leftists as communists/dictators for their own personal discussions amongst themselves, keep such nonsense away from a multi-ideology discussion board.
By bach
#27012
Certainly Chavez was not exactly creted by Castro, nevertheless I never said or implied that Chavez was not elected by the people, of course he was elected, otherwise he would not have support by now.

Regardless, it’s definitely too farfetched to believe that such implies the Cuban governments’ clandestine involvement and planning of leftist movements throughout the hemisphere and the world.


Of course there isnt people sitting behind a table planing how to endoctrinate the next country, that does not happen that way, however if you want to go to learn about the left, they would hapily receive you there.

Do you have any proof of this? It’s understandable that many leftists support the Cuban government, or at least many aspects of it.


Not only they support it but they live there, besides everybody knows Chavez and the colombian guerillla's representatives in Cuba meet once in a while to discuss the future of "la unificacion bolivariana" which I'm not quite sure how far goes, because it might be that at the end it will include other countries besides Venezuela and Colombia.


The workers are Cuban DOCTORS, not political scientists or educators. The poor Venezuelan majority cannot afford the price of basic medicine from the mainly upper-class, anti-Chavez doctors of Caracas.


Yes they are doctors and many others who I would not denied are doing a great job, because that is abosolutelly truth, the poor do not have those services. Yet, the simple fact that they are there, is already an example of what a great place Cuba and its system are, and in a sense it is because it cannot be denied in Cuba everybody receives education and medical treatment.

As far as the Constitution well, it certainly was voted by the people and has nothing worng.

Moreover I do agree with you that the business community have been trashing the economy to then blame on Chavez, that is a fact no one can denied, I cant believe how there is people who actually believe Chavez is responsible for the downturn of the economy, what would they espect of a month long strike?

All in all, Chavez is without a doubt as strongly committed toward the freedom of his people as he is committed toward reforming the economy in a more leftist, protectionist way.


You said it there Chavez is for a form of government for the people, which is nothing else but left, however wheter Chavez will follow Castro's path has to be seen.

Hussein and bin Laden, too have similar ideological views, namely their disdain for US imperialism


Finally I'm not quite sure about this, because remeber Hussein was uncle's sam buddy for a long time, they did bussiness together, Iran, the Kurds, until Hussein invaded Kuwait.

So really Hussein was OK with US imperialism as far as he was profiting form it, As for any other resemblance to Bin Ladden there is non other than they are both arabs, yet not quite the same type of arabs, so not even on that.
User avatar
By nateddi
#27309
You seem to acknowledge many of my points as correct, though insist that many leftist organizations are sympathetic and supportive of the Cuban government. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, I only wanted to set the record straight that the government of Venezuela is not a puppet of Cuba, it is a representative democracy in which the people, due to the corruption of the traditional two political parties, have elected populist leaders.
By bach
#27416
Will have to see how this turns out, so far at least it has benefited the needed people althought I'm not sue with what objectives, to build political support or to really help the people.

Yes, for now we can call Venezuela a democracy.
User avatar
By Reddy Peoples
#365056
Dr. Castro's leadership has seen Cuba provide a lot of foreign aid to other nations. Cuban foreign aide is OF COURSE a form of indoctrination- talking to your friends is indoctrination. Just as American foreign aide is indoctrination, Christian Charity is indoctrination, U.N. relief work, etc. No one does anything for any one else without eventually finding some benifit for themselves- and that's not necessarily a bad or selfish thing either. Helping somone could teach you something, it could expose you to new things, it could end up helping you in the long run. TO say that there's some silly line which can be crossed is silly- communist support for a nation is communist subsidization for a nation, this understanding extending to capitalism or any other system.

Dr. Castro and President Chavez have every right to defend their people's interests, work towards communism, and oppress a minority (the rich) which would subjugate their entire nations' peoples to something less than self determination- U.S. dominance.
By lester1/2jr
#375443
castro and chavez should be killed. the reds have brought nothing but misery to latin america.
User avatar
By Reddy Peoples
#375733
Wow- that was an arguement, rather than a statement with no facts to back it up. I mean, people who bring latin america nothing but misery and suffering should be killed right?
By skeptik
#375983
Reddy Peoples wrote:I mean, people who bring latin america nothing but misery and suffering should be killed right?


Yep. And you know who that means don't you? (OH HAPPY DAYS...!)
User avatar
By Reddy Peoples
#376140
He he he, yeah...

I've been waiting to get some kind of concensus on that issue for a while. Just following through on that mandate alone would clean up the whole U.S. political system, not to mention all that great footage of the trials and hangings we'd get on C-Span. Listen up boys, this could be the avenue we've been waiting to explore.

***voice over the radio***
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