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By McPherson
#177541
It´s a miracle that Cuba stays there, after all these decades of miserable US-led embargo. Just because the US had no guts to confront the USSR, they pick on the small one, which is geographically quite near, by the way. And this was 50 years ago. And Fidel is alive, and showing us his ass, because he has managed to stay there, and lead his country. Cubans are hungry, have no medicines, but ALL they went to school, read books, and have a hospital bed when required. I plenty support Cuba´s regime, and think that the US should be taken to a International Court, for the atrocities it is causing. Oh, you say Fidel is a dictator? at least he has guts. Bush is worse, Bush is a murderer, and a liar. The US lies about the WMD, lies about Fidel, lies about Osama, lies about everything.

The future, when Fidel dies: I trust the cuban people will make another one. The Revolution will never die in Cuba, and will always be the stone inside Uncle Sam´s shoe.
By Fernando
#178649
The old passion for European socialists. Mc, just a question: Would you like Castro as president of Spain?

Regarding guts there is no point: he has the guts. He maintains in power not only because of his guts, but because he had USSR support until 1990 or so and afterwards it is not acceptable to invade him.

If your prime objective is disturbing US you are right: he is. Then don't go on reading and go to bed quietly.

But, if not:

1) Cuba was in the 50s one the major economies in the continent.

2) I don't deny the harm done by US embargo.

3) ... nor the help from USSR.

4) Compare its economy with Puerto Rico's.

5) Strongest argument: He does't admit his people to leave. He only admits it when there is such opposition that is better for him to get rid of them. I doubt if there are more cubans in Cuba or in Miami.

6) Why does he jail the oppositors.

7) Ask people visiting Cuba. I am afraid his health system is "a little" worse than before.

8) Bush is not a murderer. Regarding a liar ... I wouldn't put my hand on the fire ;). At any rate, Cuba has intervened in Angola, Bolivia, Mexico, Nicaragua, Mozambique, Congo-Zaire... Wow, if Cuba had US's size I would prepare for an American (in the right sense) invasion.
...
n) Sorry to repeat a previous post but only a dictator can punish his people with so long speeches.

Even Saramago has fallen from the horse.
By McPherson
#178680
Regarding a liar ... I wouldn't put my hand on the fire

:lol: :lol: :lol: "Por consiguiente...." que ya te veo venir...

Well, Cuba. What a tricky topic, eh? I agree, Castro is a rock, a stone. But I don´t know if he has enough space to manouver. Hard hand is needed, to keep hopes high. If not, everyone would take off to Miami.

I have some objections to your statements. Cuba was in the 50s a good economy...according to the US, of course. It was a US puppet, the movie "The Godfather II" shows it very well: mafias and speculators from the US putting casinos and hotels in Cuba. It looks like Cuba is rich, but not: all the money goes to the Corleone ;) . Fidel ended with all that crap. And then the missile crisis, and the embargo. Cuba has survived thanks to its trade with the USSR. But in the 90s it finished. So, there you have, poor isolated country, who can make money only out of tourism. And the US even want to reduce that, with criminal laws like the Helms-Burton. Castro is a oppresor, a dictator, yes! but he´s not the cause of the suffering of his people. USA is. For me the problem is quite simple: Castro should leave because he´s old, and the US wants just him, but prepare it carefully, to ensure that dirty capitalist hands won´t touch Cuba, when the embargo will finish. Another Castro will rise, but this time the US won´t dare to mantain the embargo.
User avatar
By Rust
#178905
Compare its economy with Puerto Rico's


What about Puerto Rico's economy? Cuba's has had a higher economic growth than Puerto Rico in the past few years. That is on top of the embargo imposed on Cuba and with Puerto Rican subsidies to American corporations.

Strongest argument: He does't admit his people to leave. He only admits it when there is such opposition that is better for him to get rid of them. I doubt if there are more cubans in Cuba or in Miami


Cubans can leave legally from Cuba if they so choose. They must apply for a visa first if they want to go to the United States. The incidents where visas have not been issued have been where the U.S. decides not to permit, or to limit, travel to Cuba; or when the proper immigration papers/documantation was not given.

Ask people visiting Cuba. I am afraid his health system is "a little" worse than before


Worse? Cuban's has basically the same life expectancy than Americans. Cuba also has more doctors per capita.

Sorry to repeat a previous post but only a dictator can punish his people with so long speeches.


Castro is elected by a parliament which is elected by the people. He is not a dictator.
By Fernando
#180881
Please don't compare PR economy with Cuba. If you want to blame US because of the embargo you have a (weak) point, but please, don't compare.

Castro doesn't admit his people to leave. You need a visado from cuban authorities, not easy to get... unless you have friends.
http://www.conexioncubana.net/tramites/ ... estafa.htm

I find hard to believe how Cuba can have the same life expectancy, but I don't have the data so I will have to believe you. Regarding doctors, half of them are taxi drivers in Havana. Any traveller to Cuba can confirm.

Finally, if there is no competition, there is no democracy and I call the ruler a dictator.

And please, no American corporations, but US corporations.
User avatar
By Rust
#180919
Fernando wrote:Please don't compare PR economy with Cuba. If you want to blame US because of the embargo you have a (weak) point, but please, don't compare.


Well you brought it up. I live in Puerto Rico so I think that I'm qualified to talk about it. While Puerto Rico's economy is stronger, Cuba has had a higher annual growth percentage in the past years. Again, that is with an Embargo in place and with Puerto Rico subsidicing U.S. Companies!

Puerto Rico's economy would be nothing if it didn't have those subsidies for U.S. corporations.

Castro doesn't admit his people to leave. You need a visado from cuban authorities, not easy to get... unless you have friends.
http://www.conexioncubana.net/tramites/ ... estafa.htm


Either he does let them leave or not? A visa is a form of 'letting them leave'. The visas are part of an agreement with the U.S. They both agreed to only give visas to 20,000 people. The U.S. in the past few years has only granted entrace to about 6,000! It also has given less visas to people who want to get in to Cuba.

I find hard to believe how Cuba can have the same life expectancy, but I don't have the data so I will have to believe you. Regarding doctors, half of them are taxi drivers in Havana. Any traveller to Cuba can confirm.



Life expectancy at birth:

46. Cyprus 77.27 years
47. Puerto Rico 77.26 years
48. United States 77.14 years
49. Denmark 77.1 years
50. Taiwan 76.87 years
51. Cuba 76.8 years

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea ... ir_tot_pop

As for the doctors, can you provide any proof?

Finally, if there is no competition, there is no democracy and I call the ruler a dictator.


There is no competion as in other political parties but there is competition for his position. Again, the population gets the ability to vote at the age of 16. They then vote who they want in parliament. The parliament then votes for the positions; it has the ability to remove Castro if they vote as such.
By Fernando
#180965
The easy way is to say that you can move to Cuba whenever you want. ;)

The hard way:

1) I only wanted to state that PR's economy is stronger. We agree. If Cuba's economy is growing faster I am afraid it would take Cuba a long time to seize PR.

2) No point. I need no visa from my own authorities to get out of my country. I only need a valid passport. The other day it took me about 1 hour to get it. Is the same in Cuba? I understand US inmigration policy, as any other country receiving many people. But why should Cuba limit the number of their own countrymates that go away.

3) I had accepted your data. But I thank the confirmation.

About doctors: Is it enough to you that my sister got 2 doctors-led taxis in a 7 days week?. Sorry, but I haven't found the official data of "doctors working as taxists" of cuban Ministerio de Salud.

My country is full of doctors and other qualified professional and scholars from Eastern Europe. Unfortunately Communists systems produce a large number of such people without jobs for them.

In my country we used to have elections under Franco. People elected the members of the parliament. So what? If there are no parties there is no democracy (and even sometimes there are parties and no democracy).
User avatar
By Rust
#181147
1) I only wanted to state that PR's economy is stronger. We agree. If Cuba's economy is growing faster I am afraid it would take Cuba a long time to seize PR.


Yes it is stronger. But that is not the only apsect used to measure the economy of a country. Its annual growth, and how it projects in the following years directly speaks to the economic strengh of the country and the economic plan of the government.

Cuba's economy is growing more than that of Puerto Rico and Cuba has to deal with an embargo. The embargo directly limits the amount of tourists that visit Cuba and every single island in the Caribbean (especially Puerto Rico) is dependant of tourism for its economy.

2) No point. I need no visa from my own authorities to get out of my country. I only need a valid passport. The other day it took me about 1 hour to get it. Is the same in Cuba? I understand US inmigration policy, as any other country receiving many people. But why should Cuba limit the number of their own countrymates that go away.


It is my understanding that they are free to go to any country except to the United States because the U.S. and Cuba had reached an agreement stating that only 20,000 visas would be issued a year. The main reason Cuba sometimes doesn't fullfill the figure is because the U.S. limits people from going to Cuba in the first place!

About doctors: Is it enough to you that my sister got 2 doctors-led taxis in a 7 days week?. Sorry, but I haven't found the official data of "doctors working as taxists" of cuban Ministerio de Salud.

My country is full of doctors and other qualified professional and scholars from Eastern Europe. Unfortunately Communists systems produce a large number of such people without jobs for them.


Lets accept what you said. The doctors are still there, and thats the point. These "taxi/doctors" help out when national disasters hit other countries. Example, 9/11 in the U.S. and the numerous earthquakes in Iran. Cuba sent teams of doctors in each of those events.

In my country we used to have elections under Franco. People elected the members of the parliament. So what? If there are no parties there is no democracy (and even sometimes there are parties and no democracy).


Well, its a "one-party system". That still doesn't mean its a dictatorship.
By Fernando
#181458
1) Economic situation: I am saying since the beginning the embargo has a major impact in Cuba's economy. This impact was softened because of Russian help but got worse since Berlin Wall's fall. Currently Cuba get European tourists (mainly Spanish) that give euros/dollars to Cuban economy, purchasing goods in only-for-tourists outlets. I don't want to talk about current prostitution in Cuba since is a easy topic for demagogy.

Simply I can think if Castro was out of Cuba, cubans would largely improve. Maybe, as McPherson said, Cuba was a corrupt country in the 50s but nowadays the cars in Cuba are those.

I can not understand Helms/Burton Act but please, I see some reasons for US' attitude to Cuba:

a) Cuba installed nuclear missiles in its territory.

b) Cuba is the only country that forces the US to maintain troops in its territory since there is no mutual threats between US and Mexico or Canada.

c) Cuba has intervened, against US, in Africa and S America, sending soldiers.

d) Almost every cuban oppositor favors embargo.

2) Cubans are not free to leave. This is just a little selection of news relating to Cubans not-admitted to travel (in Spanish):

http://www.esto.com.mx/040129/atletismo/5atletismo.asp
http://espanol.lycos.com/actualidad/art ... 175582.htm
http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/jun98/19o2.htm

As you can see these are news no related to travel to US specifically, but anywhere. Border controls have not to be so tight as in former DDR since it has no land border.

From time to time (eg. Mariel) Castro leaves people to go illegally just to get rid of criminals and oppositors. I am not saying everyone leaving Cuba is an oppositor. There are mainly economic reasons, but I still can not see why they can not leave.

3) A one-party system is a dictatorship. Mainly if the ruler is the same for 45 years!

Anyway, Rust, I am not saying Castro is so bad as Bush says, but I can't understand why the adoration for him. Americans that embrace his ideas would run if he would rule their countries. Fidel is just other "salvapatrias" supporting himself in nationalism.
User avatar
By Rust
#181512
a) Cuba installed nuclear missiles in its territory.


That's right, in their territory. Only the U.S. has the right to do in their territory as they wish? :roll:

Not to mention that the U.S. had bases all around Europe, and did not want to remove them which is what prolonged the Cuban missle crisis.

b) Cuba is the only country that forces the US to maintain troops in its territory since there is no mutual threats between US and Mexico or Canada.


Forces? Forces the U.S. to mantain troops? Please! The U.S. already tried to invade Cuba and has ordered numerous asssasination attempts!

c) Cuba has intervened, against US, in Africa and S America, sending soldiers.


So have numerous other countries. I don't see the U.S. being hostile to them.

d) Almost every cuban oppositor favors embargo.


And that represents a minority compared to those who don't.


2) Cubans are not free to leave. This is just a little selection of news relating to Cubans not-admitted to travel (in Spanish):

http://www.esto.com.mx/040129/atletismo/5atletismo.asp
http://espanol.lycos.com/actualidad/art ... 175582.htm
http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/jun98/19o2.htm



Look at who they denied departure to!

1) Athletes. Why? Because Cuban athletes recieve training, food and shelter in Cuba for free only to want to leave Cuba and not repay the government! They want to take what they had for free and then leave and not even support the Cuban people by playing sports in their country! That is why Cuba has restricted their departure.

2) The wife of a prisoner in order to deny him of the award. Sorry, but the U.S. has done the same thing to Cubans. Numerous cuban singers have won awards in the U.S. and they have denied them entrance visas because they say they are "Communist Collaborators"

3) The Leader of an opposition group!

3) A one-party system is a dictatorship. Mainly if the ruler is the same for 45 years!


No. It is not. Look at the definition of dictatorship. He is elected by a parliament that can remove him at any time. The poupulation elects the parliament!
By Fernando
#181581
My last post, Rust. Castro is not my personal worry. If you like, you can move from PR to Cuba :). I am tired of discussing about such a guy when S America is a bit larger than Cuba.

It is funny that no topic arise so many controversy.

Rust wrote:That's right, in their territory. Only the U.S. has the right to do in their territory as they wish? :roll:


US only have missiles when the country admits so. And I don't think USSR liked very much Western countries where missiles were.

Rust wrote:Not to mention that the U.S. had bases all around Europe, and did not want to remove them which is what prolonged the Cuban missle crisis.


Nor these countries wanted them to be removed, and USSR had yet missiles in E Europe.

Rust wrote:Forces? Forces the U.S. to mantain troops? Please! The U.S. already tried to invade Cuba and has ordered numerous asssasination attempts!


US helped to develop Bahía de Cochinos, not invaded Cuba. As a matter of fact they asked for air support and US let them die.

So have numerous other countries. I don't see the U.S. being hostile to them.


I think US is hostile to any country that has intervened in other countries against it. It is not discriminatory.

If you are saying US only do things when intervention is AGAINST US I can agree with you but it is no surprise.

d) Almost every cuban oppositor favors embargo.

And that represents a minority compared to those who don't.


But they vote in US. Cynical, but true.

Look at who they denied departure to!

1) Athletes. Why? Because Cuban athletes recieve training, food and shelter in Cuba for free only to want to leave Cuba and not repay the government! They want to take what they had for free and then leave and not even support the Cuban people by playing sports in their country! That is why Cuba has restricted their departure.

2) The wife of a prisoner in order to deny him of the award. Sorry, but the U.S. has done the same thing to Cubans. Numerous cuban singers have won awards in the U.S. and they have denied them entrance visas because they say they are "Communist Collaborators"

3) The Leader of an opposition group!


In my country (and I assume in yours country) athlets, wife of people in jail and leader of opposition groups are permitted to go abroad.

By the way US doesn't admit people to ENTER. Cuban government don't admit people to LEAVE.

No. It is not. Look at the definition of dictatorship. He is elected by a parliament that can remove him at any time. The poupulation elects the parliament!


In Spanish Franco regime we had a nice Parliament elected by "the people".

I assume Castro has performed so good for 46 years that the population wants to maintain him in power ... or emigrate.
User avatar
By Rust
#181653
US only have missiles when the country admits so. And I don't think USSR liked very much Western countries where missiles were.


That's the point! It's hypocrisy. The U.S. can have bases and missiles all around Europe but the USSR can't have them in Cuba? When Cuba itself accepted them?

Nor these countries wanted them to be removed, and USSR had yet missiles in E Europe.


And Cuba didn't want them removed either!

US helped to develop Bahía de Cochinos, not invaded Cuba. As a matter of fact they asked for air support and US let them die.


What do you think is the Bay of Pigs? An U.S. invation of Cuba!

I think US is hostile to any country that has intervened in other countries against it. It is not discriminatory.

If you are saying US only do things when intervention is AGAINST US I can agree with you but it is no surprise.


You said that Cuba has intervened against the U.S. in other countries. Well so have numerous other countries and the U.S. has trade and good diplomatic relationships with them. They even consider some of them allies!

But they vote in US. Cynical, but true


Yes they vote... because they are in the U.S. ... How do you expect a Cuban living in Cuba to vote for ending the embargo?

In my country (and I assume in yours country) athlets, wife of people in jail and leader of opposition groups are permitted to go abroad.


Yes and in my country and I assume yours, athletes pay for their own training, for their own food and for their own house. If not, they are paid for by corporations which then obligate them to "work" for them! How is it different?

The Cuban government pays for their houses, their food, their training and then they want to run and leave for the U.S.? Sorry but it doesn't work like that, not even in the U.S.

By the way US doesn't admit people to ENTER. Cuban government don't admit people to LEAVE.


Both, the U.S. doesn't let people leave for Cuba either. Part of their "plans for a democratic Cuba" involves them limiting exit visas. Why? Because they want to limit tourism to Cuba.

In Spanish Franco regime we had a nice Parliament elected by "the people".

I assume Castro has performed so good for 46 years that the population wants to maintain him in power ... or emigrate.


Yes that's why only 2% of the population even want to leave! More Mexicans enter Cuba than Cubans leave!

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