[bach]

Can anyone free this poor three guys, or did washington forgot about them, plus no one in the news seems to care or dare to speak about them.

On February 12, 2003 a Pentagon-owned Cessna went down in the jungle of southern Colombia. Found near the crash site were the bullet-ridden bodies of a Colombian crewmember and the American pilot. Three other Americans who were aboard the plane were nowhere to be found.
Seen for the first time since their abduction, the three American hostages, flanked by guerrilla soldiers with semi-automatic weapons and looking physically strong after nearly six months in captivity, are seen in a new documentary titled, Held Hostage in Colombia. The film is produced and directed by American filmmakers Karin Hayes and Victoria Bruce, along with Colombian journalist Jorge Enrique Botero, who obtained exclusive footage of the three men in a jungle prison camp on July 25, 2003.

In interviews with Botero, the three captives, dressed in the identical camouflage uniforms of their captors, explain that they were working in Colombia under a U.S. government contract awarded to California Microwave Systems, a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman, when the engine of the Cessna 208 they were flying failed. After surviving the crash, systems analysts Keith Stansell and Marc Gonsalves, Colombian guide Luis Alcides Cruz, and pilots Thomas Janis and Thomas Howes were immediately surrounded by forces from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), Colombia's largest insurgent group. Cruz and Janis were shot and killed, and the three others taken hostage.

FARC commanders explain on camera that the three Americans have been classified as prisoners of war, and that they are on a list with Colombian political prisoners held by the FARC. The three hostages explain what daily life for them has been like, the incredible pain of separation from their families and the frustration at having no news from the outside world. And in a dramatic scene, the hostages read news magazines and reports and discover that soon after their crash, their contract was awarded to another company that they have never heard of, called CIAO. This information adds to the FARC's suspicion and accusation that the men are CIA agents.

In an emotional moment, the men learn that three of their co-workers died in a plane crash while looking for them. And in a powerful plea, hostage Keith Stansell begs the American government not to attempt a military rescue. "You may come here to get us, but when you get here, we're going to be dead," Stansell says, explaining that they are guarded 24 hours a day by armed guerrillas. "I pray for a diplomatic solution", Stansell says staring directly into the camera, referring to the guerilla demand for a prisoner exchange.

Before his trip to the jungle, Botero asked American filmmakers Karin Hayes and Victoria Bruce to record a message from Jo Rosano of Connecticut to her son Marc Gonsalves. After showing Gonsalves the heartbreaking message from his mother, Botero had the three captives send messages to their families. Hayes and Bruce then took the messages to family members in the United States who hadn't received any news or proof of life since the day of the crash, and who had been pressured by the U.S. Department of State not to speak to the media about the case. The families discuss their incredible frustration after hearing no news for six months, and their anger at the US government for making no attempts to encourage the Colombian government to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis. With expert testimony from academics and politicians, HELD HOSTAGE IN COLOMBIA also calls into question the long-running American drug policy in Colombia.

http://www.heldhostageincolombia.com/

http://www.heldhostageincolombia.com/synopsis.html

[Wilhelm]

Hi

You seem to have posted this a while ago. I remember watching that case on the news. FARC claimed ot have caught three CIA spies, while the governemnt claimed that they were just American contractors. My guess is that they're spies, but nobody cares. The US would never go in there because the least that they need is an active military involvement in the Colombian internal conflict. It could lead to another Vietnam which would be much worse than what they're living now in Iraq. The US government just can't afford to go on rescue missions to search for kidnapped people. in the Colombian jungles. They would never suceed against the guerrilla tactics of FARC. Their best shot would be the GAULA groups in the Colombian army and police. But the elite forces would already be busy with personalities such as presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt and senator Jorge Eduardo Gechem Turbay still in possession of the guerrillas, not to mention the 200 soldiers who have been prisoners for over five years. Added to all those rich guys kidnapped for money, I think there are higher priorities for the Colombian government than rescuing three Americans.

I'm not sure if those three Americans have already been freed or rescued becaus eIdidn't check the news about them, and some of my facts might be wrong, but the above paragraph clearly illustrates the point.

[Reddy Peoples]

The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) have demonstrated time and again that they are not interested in killing people- they're interested in true democracy and autonomy for Colombia, which can only be socialist and opposed to Yankee imperialism in the name of capitalism. Don't fuck around in Colombia, the people there are strong.

[Fernando]

I hope you are kidding.

[Steven_K]

So do I.

[Reddy Peoples]

I"m not at all. It's a civil fucking war. You can't expect anyone who's fighting for the place they are from to be anything but crazy about it. Any showing of compassion in a civil war is a thing of magnitude- brutality is simply the rule of such days. It is too easy to criticize the behavior of parties in a civil war- we should look at our own nation's historically equivilant events and our sympathies for whatever side we choose and ask ourselves- is there a difference?

[Fernando]

Yes, it's a "fucking civil war", when fucking bastard drugdealers are killing peasants, soldiers and common people since 1960. They are destroying its own country, its economy and its hope. And giving a perfect excuse for paramilitaries and government.

Even when Pastrana gave them the opportunity (zona de despeje) they did nothing.

[Steven_K]

It is too easy to criticize the behavior of parties in a civil war- we should look at our own nation's historically equivilant events and our sympathies for whatever side we choose and ask ourselves- is there a difference

Yes, yes there is. In Canada, all revolutionaries were at least fighting for an idea. In Colombia, they only fight for the drug trade. They have stopped caring about the rights of Colombians, and only care about their right to make money.

[Reddy Peoples]

Oh Jesus Christ, what a load of yankee propaganda. EVERYONE in COlombia is involved in the drug trade- just as, in the long run, so is everyone in the world. You pay taxes that fund the drug trade. The fact is, drugs are shit people want- just like oil, timber, and food. Control over comodditites is control over politics. I'm not going to take the arguement that "they're involved in drugs, oh they must be bad" as a serious enough critcism of the FARC. Escobar ran the drug trade in Colombia before the guerrilla or the paramilitary were involved personally at all. His fall HAD to involve their eventual continuance of the trade- they're BOTH up to their elbows in EVERY trade in Colombia (shit like that happens when a civil war is 30 years and counting old). If they took a "moral" stance and let the rightist paramilitaries run shit, they'd be economically at a loss and inevitably end up on the loosing side. PRagmatism is the trueist sign of a serious communist.

[Fernando]

First, don't speak about yankee propaganda when you only repeat lefty slogans. You are another 1st world lefty who would defecate in your pants if you were to be ruled by the people you are supporting in the 3rd world.

Second, drug smuggling is just one of the funny thing FARC and ELN does. As far as I know FARC only kills and kidnap for money.

Third if "pragmatism is the trueist sign of a serious communist" then I assume you will understand that your government (pragmatically) should carpet-bombing the "zona de despeje" to get rid of them.

Ah, sorry, no, you would critize your government because the guerrilla deaths in combat are communist heroes while peasants killed by FARC are neccesaries for the triumph of the socialism.

[Reddy Peoples]

LOFL- Please, show me ONE slogan I've spouted. I'm not a party member, and while a Marxist I"m neither a trot or a spart- I've done my thinking for myself, thank you. I've been following the situation in Colombia and the rest of South America as best as a dayly newspaper reader can in the U.S. for about 10 years, and anyone who knows anything about the situation knows that the paramilitary rightist forces are equally responsible for the deaths of the colombian people to the FARC or ELN. It's a civil war- what the fuck do you think is going to happen? Here in the U.S., we had a civil war, and it killed more of us than any other war- but MOST of us wouldn't want to live in an AMerica that never had it's civil war. I'm sorry that war kills people, but in Colombia it is WAR killing people- neither side can be blamed for that. What either side must be measured by is it's plan for the Colombian people, and thus I support the Guerrilla.

Also, your whole "blame the rebels first" arguement falls the fuck apart when you take into consideration the fact that this war had begun before most of them were BORN. You're oversimplifying to the extreme to blame anyone who engages in armed struggle for "murder." Unless you're some kind of pacifist (which is fine- just say so if you are,) don't expect pacifist arguements to be considered logical analysis of non-pacifist movements.

BTW- wether it's the case in this instance or not, I wonder if any of you are farmiliar with the VERY REAL American practice of sending "independant contractors" into situations like Colombia (it was done in Iraq as well). "Independant contractor" is an American euphamism for "hired killer" or 'mercenary" that the government employes (as compared to legitimate military men) because they are unbound by the Geneva convention and other Human rights law. The FARC and ELN aren't stupid, they've captured a lot of shithead hired criminals from the U.S. If someone fitting the description of a mercenary goes to Colombia unaware of this practice of the U.S. gov, I feel sorry for them- but don't expect Colombia to be ignorant of this tactic, as it's been the victem of it repeatedly.

[Der Freiheitsucher]

Oookay, loads and loads of bullshit here to comment on.

The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) have demonstrated time and again that they are not interested in killing people-

Haha, how have they? with the Bojayá massacre? Or with the daily raids of cities?

they're interested in true democracy and autonomy for Colombia,

Oooh, so that's why they keep killing government officials, mayors, congressmen and senators. Because they want true democracy.

which can only be socialist and opposed to Yankee imperialism in the name of capitalism. Don't fuck around in Colombia, the people there are strong.

Yup, we're strong. But your argument and logic is puny and laughable, to say the least.

Any showing of compassion in a civil war is a thing of magnitude- brutality is simply the rule of such days. It is too easy to criticize the behavior of parties in a civil war- we should look at our own nation's historically equivilant events and our sympathies for whatever side we choose and ask ourselves- is there a difference?

How about sparing the lives of innocent civilians? Do you think the government performs just an inch of these brutalities? This is hilarious, a commie child in the USA commenting on our civil war. I am looking at my nation's historically equivalent events. Your rhetoric is hilarious.

Yes, it's a "fucking civil war", when fucking bastard drugdealers are killing peasants, soldiers and common people since 1960.

Thats about right. Since earlier, though.

They are destroying its own country, its economy and its hope. And giving a perfect excuse for paramilitaries and government.

You hit the nail once again.

Even when Pastrana gave them the opportunity (zona de despeje) they did nothing.

This is exactly the point that should be discussed, and that Reddy Peoples in its mind baffling ignorance doesn't know. They want autonomy and democracy, and yet when they get a full zone in our national territory, they dedicate to train and re-arm themselves. This zone was meant to be a place to start peace negotiations, with concessions. What's your explanation for that, Reddy Peoples?

Oh Jesus Christ, what a load of yankee propaganda.

Well they're telling it like it is, and I'm Colombian. Is it then, Colombian propaganda? I loathe the US government and their influence here, yet I agree with everything Steven_K and Fernando said. What, then? What explanation is there to it? Furthermore, I assure you that every single person I know, as national polls have also shown, the overwhelming majority of the Colombian people agree with Fernando and Steven_K. Hmmm, yankee propaganda? Try again.

EVERYONE in COlombia is involved in the drug trade

Uh, I'm not. Neither is anyone I know. I'm starting to think you're joking.

The fact is, drugs are shit people want- just like oil, timber, and food. Control over comodditites is control over politics.

Haha, umm, okay.

Escobar ran the drug trade in Colombia before the guerrilla or the paramilitary were involved personally at all.

Wrong. Check your facts. I won't even bother debunking this.

His fall HAD to involve their eventual continuance of the trade- they're BOTH up to their elbows in EVERY trade in Colombia (shit like that happens when a civil war is 30 years and counting old)

Wrong again, in both aspects. The war is older than 30 years. That and the fact that the guerillas didn't take up Escobar's business. One of the main reasons why our economy collapsed.

If they took a "moral" stance and let the rightist paramilitaries run shit, they'd be economically at a loss and inevitably end up on the loosing side.

Are you assuming they, or "we" aren't already at an economical loss? Another of your puny rhetoric.

You are another 1st world lefty who would defecate in your pants if you were to be ruled by the people you are supporting in the 3rd world.

Touché. You are my new best friend Fernando.

Second, drug smuggling is just one of the funny thing FARC and ELN does. As far as I know FARC only kills and kidnap for money.

And drug-trades too. And raids, and rapes, and kills, and destroys. You name it, they do it.

I assume you will understand that your government (pragmatically) should carpet-bombing the "zona de despeje" to get rid of them.

He doesn't know what the zona de despeje is.

Ah, sorry, no, you would critize your government because the guerrilla deaths in combat are communist heroes while peasants killed by FARC are neccesaries for the triumph of the socialism.

Haha, he must be the only person in America who thinks that. Apart from Chavez and the actual guerillas.

LOFL- Please, show me ONE slogan I've spouted.

Okay:

what a load of yankee propaganda.

I've been following the situation in Colombia and the rest of South America as best as a dayly newspaper reader can in the U.S. for about 10 years, and anyone who knows anything about the situation knows that the paramilitary rightist forces are equally responsible for the deaths of the colombian people to the FARC or ELN.

Oh I've been following that same situation for way longer, and as a matter of fact, I'm actually in citus. Funny, I don't agree with you, nor do I think that the paramilitaries are equally responsible. Do you even know when the FARC originated, and when the AUC did?

I'm sorry that war kills people, but in Colombia it is WAR killing people- neither side can be blamed for that. What either side must be measured by is it's plan for the Colombian people, and thus I support the Guerrilla.

Ahahaha. This is just too thick for me. This is like telling a Jew that you support the Nazis (keeping proportions in mind). You know nothing kid, which is the sole basis for me to disregard your insulting statements, for I know you have fuck all clue of what you're talking about.

The rest of your senseless babble I wont bother in replying. Like Vivisekt said somewhere else: "doesn't it bother you, even in the slightest, that you have no idea what you're talking about?"

[Reddy Peoples]

"Haha, how have they? with the Bojayá massacre? Or with the daily raids of cities?"

Um... by releasing people they've kidnapped?

"Oooh, so that's why they keep killing government officials, mayors, congressmen and senators. Because they want true democracy."

That's exactly why. When a whole, huge portion of the population (the guerrilla and their supporters) arne't allowed representation, that's not democracy. If Colombia may ONLY be ruled by capitalism, than colombia is nothing but a capitalism.

"Yup, we're strong. But your argument and logic is puny and laughable, to say the least."

Okay- so you just want to trade insults? I"m sorry if your nation is at war, and it certainly must aid in one's survival (during a civil war) to quetly dislike both sides and look out for oneself, but you have to admit that the emotions you naturally feel as a result of being involved in the conflict cloud your ability to assess it.

"How about sparing the lives of innocent civilians? Do you think the government performs just an inch of these brutalities? This is hilarious, a commie child in the USA commenting on our civil war. I am looking at my nation's historically equivalent events. Your rhetoric is hilarious."

I'm not at all a child- and I'm certain that "your" government's military is arming the paramilitaries- who perform plenty of violence. I'd hate to tell you, but there are no innocent civillians anymore- which is why avoiding war is going to become more and more important in the future. War is changing- it's becoming MORE about harming civillians and LESS about conflict between armies. This is a trend extending to the whole world.

"This is exactly the point that should be discussed, and that Reddy Peoples in its mind baffling ignorance doesn't know. They want autonomy and democracy, and yet when they get a full zone in our national territory, they dedicate to train and re-arm themselves. This zone was meant to be a place to start peace negotiations, with concessions. What's your explanation for that, Reddy Peoples? "

They're a fucking army! Beyond that, throwing them into their own territory just protects capitalism in the rest of colombia, while simultaniously forcing them into ECONOMIC (rather than military) conflict with colombian and yankee capital. Take it from some stupid AMerican- I've watched my nation and it's lackeys throw communist revolutions into tiny global ghettos (Cuba, the USSR, "North" Vietnam, "North" Korea, etc.) for the sake of denying communism from the NATURAL ECONOMIC TENDANCIES OF ECONOMIC SYSTEMS- EXPANTION. LOOK at any stock market and you'll grasp that an economy is only "healthy" if it's expanding. Physical isolation and containment is totally incompatible with economic expansion, and it's the beginning of recession, depression, and shortages- which the Capitalists are quick to blame on the very communism of communism- and subsequently STARVE those inside to death while demanding a "return to domocracy" (capitalism.)

"Well they're telling it like it is, and I'm Colombian. Is it then, Colombian propaganda? I loathe the US government and their influence here, yet I agree with everything Steven_K and Fernando said. What, then? What explanation is there to it? Furthermore, I assure you that every single person I know, as national polls have also shown, the overwhelming majority of the Colombian people agree with Fernando and Steven_K. Hmmm, yankee propaganda? Try again."

LOFL- Yeah, it's colombian Nationalist propaganda, paid for by the Colombian government and private interest (media,) funded by the U.S. if you follow the money for any distance. My nation dumps BILLIONS of dollars into yours to convince it's people that it isn't totally tolerant of the drug trade, capitalizing off it on a street level AND in the corridores of power. Shit, if you're that pissed about coke, maybe you'd like to consider military service in your nation? See, doesn't that all work out real well economically and for those who my nation wants in power?

"Uh, I'm not. Neither is anyone I know. I'm starting to think you're joking."

LOFL- You don't think your economy has benifitted IMMENSELY from it? Where do you think drug runners spend their money? They have more money than near anyone in your nation! Everyone who makes money off them, (from cheuffers to waiters to guys who sell them cigarettes) spends money they make and the cycle continues. Just as an immediate end to the American Military Industrial Complex would make the world a MUCH better place, it would still destroy my economy and I know it.

"Haha, umm, okay."

Am I lying? Do you know any military men or cops? You know, making money by FIGHTING something is the same as making money off of it. Same industry.

Escobar ran the drug trade in Colombia before the guerrilla or the paramilitary were involved personally at all.

Wrong. Check your facts. I won't even bother debunking this.

"Wrong again, in both aspects. The war is older than 30 years. That and the fact that the guerillas didn't take up Escobar's business. One of the main reasons why our economy collapsed."

So, you understand that drugs do a lot for your economy and mine- and that the war is older than most of it's participants. So why does your conclusion regarding the situation oversimplify as though you DON'T understand these things?

"Are you assuming they, or "we" aren't already at an economical loss? Another of your puny rhetoric."

No no, what I"m saying is that the guerrilla can't afford to refrain from any act that their enemy would use against them. You can't use non-violence to resist a murderer, get me?

"And drug-trades too. And raids, and rapes, and kills, and destroys. You name it, they do it."

You're going to assume that a roughly organized, self sustained guerrilla army made up mostly of people who've not had the benifit of a formal education can be held accountable for the acts of individual soldiers? The on-the-ground shit is clearly the responsibility of the individual who partakes of it- releasing kidnapping victems is an act taken by higher officials, who's acts are more representitive of the whole army on the grounds that an army is heirarchical.

I assume you will understand that your government (pragmatically) should carpet-bombing the "zona de despeje" to get rid of them.

He doesn't know what the zona de despeje is.

what a load of yankee propaganda.

That's a term- not a slogan. Here, let me say it in isolation

Yankee Propaganda

See? It means nothing in and of itself. Now let me show you a SLOGAN (one I disagree with, BTW).

"The Worker has no Nation."

See? That's a slogan because it has a noun and a verb. It's a complete idea. My use of vocabulary has nothing to do with parroting slogans. My nation spends BILLIONS (literally) on foreign propaganda (indeed, that's the only official kind it's allowed to make- it's illegal to use official propaganda at home in the U.S.) and it habitually tells nations what they will do with their "democracy" if they want us to refrain from fucking them. I personally use to term "Yankee" to refer to my countrymen who are the "ugly american-" who can't leave the nation without embarassing us all and making the world hate us dispite the fact we're a multi-cultural new-world nation, not a culture in and of ourselves. Thus, yankee propaganda. No other term would be more appropriate for me to use.

"Oh I've been following that same situation for way longer, and as a matter of fact, I'm actually in citus. Funny, I don't agree with you, nor do I think that the paramilitaries are equally responsible. Do you even know when the FARC originated, and when the AUC did?"

Do you expect me to think you do? You can spout your nation's history all you want- it will still by YOUR telling of that history, telling me YOUR reasons for believing as you do. There's shit going on here in my nation that is BOUND to piss you off, but I probably could never explain why I agree with it to any sort of satisfaction for you.

[Wilhelm]

Great response DF.

Reddy Peoples. You have to get your facts straight.

Um... by releasing people they've kidnapped?

They release those who have paid ransom. It's all a business to them. Once, they fired a gas cylinder againt a church in which the whole population of the town was hiding. Is that any kind of revolution for the people? Stop bullshitting. The towns that they have absolute contorl of are those with huge coca fields nearby, and FARC get their drug trade from them.

That's exactly why. When a whole, huge portion of the population (the guerrilla and their supporters) arne't allowed representation, that's not democracy. If Colombia may ONLY be ruled by capitalism, than colombia is nothing but a capitalism.

This is another flaw of you first-world 'communists' and your argumentation. Capitalism is an economic system. Colombia is nto "a capitalism" it is a country with a capitalist economic system, and a democratic political system. It is a democracy when every law is passed by a congress chosen by the people (in which elections are only thwarted when guerrillas go around burning voting booths in small towns), when there are three branches of power which continually revise each other's actions, when legitimate political movements are allowed representatoin in the congress. One guerrilla group, the M19 was one such leftist political movement. A successful negotiation took place and now its fromer commanders sit in the congress, opposing the current governemnt with legitimate political action. The most important of them all: Antonio Navarro. He was close to winning the presidential elections many years ago, and in the next elections, it looks as though he is going to be a candidate again.

The guerrilla and its supporters are not a large portion fo the population whgen compared to the rest. There are about 15,000 of them, with more than 300 million dollars from drug trade and extorsion, and a lot of guns. They are not allowed representation because theyare just criminals. They were once challenged by the catholic church in Colombia to release a document exposing their political ideology an dproposals, and to propose a presidential candidate who would represent them. They never did.

When given a chance at peace, they were given a vast amount of land where they could not be touched, and where negotiaqtoins would take place. They decided to set up coca plantations and training grounds, while slowing down peace talks to replenish their fighitng power. This lasted for four years. Afterwards, the government decided to give them 48 hours to leave the zone, before the army went in there to retake it.

They're a fucking army! Beyond that, throwing them into their own territory just protects capitalism in the rest of colombia, while simultaniously forcing them into ECONOMIC (rather than military) conflict with colombian and yankee capital.

They were there to talk about peace, for them to be incorporated into political life. Not to strengthen their army, not to strengthen their finances. They are not legally an army, they are a group of criminals. I don't know what this "economics" bullshit you're talking about is. Forced into economic conflict?! Please do not reply when under the influence of alcohol. I won't even bother trying to understand what your "ECONOMIC TENDENCIES OF ECONOMIC SYSTEMS" thing has to do with a group of armed rebels betraying treaties.

The fact is, drugs are shit people want- just like oil, timber, and food. Control over comodditites is control over politics

Drugs are an illegal good, because they harm any society immensely.

So, you understand that drugs do a lot for your economy and mine- and that the war is older than most of it's participants. So why does your conclusion regarding the situation oversimplify as though you DON'T understand these things?

Drugs don't do shit for our economy. The money goes to Swiss banks and different overseas accounts so that track of it may be lost. Meanwhile, druglords buy loads of improted goods. This represents money going OUT which is never good (an oversimplified explanation for an oversimplified fellow).

You're going to assume that a roughly organized, self sustained guerrilla army made up mostly of people who've not had the benifit of a formal education can be held accountable for the acts of individual soldiers? The on-the-ground shit is clearly the responsibility of the individual who partakes of it- releasing kidnapping victems is an act taken by higher officials, who's acts are more representitive of the whole army on the grounds that an army is heirarchical.

The atrocities comitted by FARC are organized by the higher officials, by the secretariat. The same guy who sat on the peace talks directed the tragic attacks on three towns in the southern province of Nariño. The secretariat ordered the huge attack on Mitu, the mass kidnapping of more than 200 people in a residential building in Neiva, the selective murders of many polititians, the kidnapping of government officials and congressmen.

Reddy Peoples, get your facts straight, stop thinking with your ass, and whenever you comment on something make sure you have some actual knowledge of it. Your ignorant views of the subject are offensive to me and would be to a whole lot of other Colombians.

[Reddy Peoples]

They release those who have paid ransom. It's all a business to them. Once, they fired a gas cylinder againt a church in which the whole population of the town was hiding. Is that any kind of revolution for the people? Stop bullshitting. The towns that they have absolute contorl of are those with huge coca fields nearby, and FARC get their drug trade from them.

Yeah, I know. They could just as easily kill those people who've paid. What do you think these guys are doing?!?!?! Trying to get into heaven? Trying to keep their hands clean? This isn't a contest of who can be a better group of people, this is a play for power. I'm sorry, but I defend them in that they have the right to pursue revolution by any means necessary. In war, one must do whatever is necessary to win. Imagine if they were running oil fields instead of coca fields. Same shit. There's a huge natural resource in your nation, you want control of that nation, you take that resource. I don't see how you could expect them to be taken seriously if they didn't.

That's exactly why. When a whole, huge portion of the population (the guerrilla and their supporters) arne't allowed representation, that's not democracy. If Colombia may ONLY be ruled by capitalism, than colombia is nothing but a capitalism.

This is another flaw of you first-world 'communists' and your argumentation. Capitalism is an economic system. Colombia is nto "a capitalism" it is a country with a capitalist economic system, and a democratic political system. [/quote]

Bwaaah! Capitalist democracy isn't democracy. It's the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. I live in the U.S., I know this all too well.

So, you understand that drugs do a lot for your economy and mine- and that the war is older than most of it's participants. So why does your conclusion regarding the situation oversimplify as though you DON'T understand these things?

Because I don't pretend that drugs are going anywhere, and I accept that the larger revolution, the larger fight against capitalism worldwide, is older than all of us.

Drugs don't do shit for our economy. The money goes to Swiss banks and different overseas accounts so that track of it may be lost. Meanwhile, druglords buy loads of improted goods. This represents money going OUT which is never good (an oversimplified explanation for an oversimplified fellow).

They DO do shit for your economy. My nation just dumped 3 BILLION dollars into your economy to fight them. Fighting something is just as profitable as proliferating it. It's like auto fatalities- on the surface, they don't seem to be economically viable, but SOMEONE makes money dealling with the corpses, cleaning the road, disposing of the rubble left behind.

[Der Freiheitsucher]

Haha, an American communist teaching two Colombians about Colombian domestic politics.

By the way chap, that sig makes no sense - Why would you need to be nailed to a cross to appreciate it's true nature?

Other than that, you're wrong. Regarding Colombia, you're wrong. I won't bother making any further comments to your ridiculous and ignorant claims.

[bach]

Antonio Navarro. He was close to winning the presidential elections many years ago, and in the next elections, it looks as though he is going to be a candidate again.

Thats is absolutely false, Antonio Navarro is not running and will not, and even if wanted he cant because of the new laws that have been passed, limiting independent political parties, so to make it a two party system.

The next elecions are Uribe VS Mockus and thats it, of course lots of other candidates run, but their votes are insignificant, even Der Freiheitsucher could run for president and get the same amount of votes Navarro will get.


Well in any case yes everybody has a voice, and some former guerilla fighters have run for the presidency, there you have Serpa once VP, who back in the time was a guerilla fighter with AK47 included, thought itss tabu because now he is an important politician.

When given a chance at peace, they were given a vast amount of land where they could not be touched, and where negotiaqtoins would take place. They decided to set up coca plantations and training grounds, while slowing down peace talks to replenish their fighitng power.

Now, the imfamous " zona de despeje" was a lye to everybody, because it was promised and given by Pastrana in order to win the precidency, of course it lasted 4 years, thats waht his presidency lasted . Thats like Escobar's jail, a fraud. Well, they even gave 48 hours, of course most of the guerrilas had packed bags and left a week before, because they knwe well. Moreover there were very few combats, exactly because everybody had left, plus it was not in the pplans to kill them.

The money goes to Swiss banks and different overseas accounts so that track of it may be lost.

This is partly true, yet drugs contribute greatly to the economy, houses are built, things are bought and money is invested, thats all economic growth powered by drug money. In fact, all that money sometimes pays taxes, money that funds the government.

The atrocities comitted by FARC are organized by the higher officials, by the secretariat.

I agree most of the power brokers of the war in Colombia are criminals, but calling one side only is ignoring and forgiving the criminal acts of the right wing paramilitaries, who by the way are proven drug dealers and are now negotiating their sentences.

But the elite forces would already be busy with personalities such as presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt

Yes, those are sort of priorities, so much that the french government has been the only one interested in freeing the poor lady, they have already tried twice, she holds french citizenship, sure the colombian one isnt getting her out of trouble. after all she was kidnapped because the Pastrana government denied her security forces to go with her in the campaign trail. while there were plenty for the other two candidates, after all 20 soldiers could have saved her from getting nailed, because I must admit the colombian soldiers and police comdos are really good at resisting attacks.

[Reddy Peoples]

By the way chap, that sig makes no sense - Why would you need to be nailed to a cross to appreciate it's true nature?

It's one thing to KNOW something, to be able to recite the correct answer as to what something is or some other such fact (to say "I know that I'll die one day" or "I know that a cross is an instrument of torture and violence, murder," but it's something else entirely to know the true nature of dying, to know it from experience, to be able to feel all the things that we only believe because we forget that we WILL die, etc. It's one thing to know that something is, but it's somthing else to know how it feels. Logic is like this. We can be as educated as we like, able to parrot hours and hours of opinions, but it is something else to KNOW something, not simply to prefer it as one's answer or position.

"In China there was once a man who liked pictures of dragons, and his clothing and furnishings were all designed accordingly. His deep affection for dragons was brought to the attention of the dragon god, and one day a real dragon appeared before his window. It is said that he died of fright. He was probably a man who always spoke big words but acted differently when facing the real thing."

- From "Hagakure",
the first chapter

[kayne-ballard]

yeah i get his sig now it's i think to know something you have to kind of live it am I right?

[Reddy Peoples]

In order to know how it feels, you do. At minimum, what I can say definitively is that the more you really look at something, the more you place yourself under it and consider what it really means in the real world (not just in the world of ideas,) the more you grasp it's true nature.