"Jews are smartest race in the world and superior humans", Israeli Lawmaker claims - Page 17 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14993794
Hindsite wrote:there is a more reasonable explanation for what Jesus meant. Do you actually get the taste of blood in your mouth when you take communion? I care about all Christians, but I just hate Christians to become delusional and believe in crazy stuff that is not necessary for salvation.


Jesus was in fact a Jewish Rabbi. They, to this very day, usually mean EXACTLY what they say. They have a very literal straightforward "to the point" way of speaking that has clearly funny enough not changed much in 2000 years.

He meant literally what he said. It is his body and blood. You can argue over "how" & "why" he would say Sacramental Wine and Matzos bread are his body and blood, but not on the nature of what he meant. I accept some Protestants believe in communion in an alternative manner(like Anglicans and Lutherans who believe Jesus became one with nature and co-exists with the bread used in Communion), but the "It's symbolic" thing is flat out heresy. It denies the fact Jesus was culturally a Jew. A Galilian Jew.

Symbolic my ass. I had a Jewish friend (who were Jewish Christian) who explained this to me very well. Jewish Rabbi's usual mean exactly what they say Hindsite. Even in Jesus time.
#14993797
colliric wrote:Jesus was in fact a Jewish Rabbi. They, to this very day, usually mean EXACTLY what they say. They have a very literal straightforward "to the point" way of speaking that has clearly funny enough not changed much in 2000 years.

Symbolic my ass. I had a Jewish friend (who were Jewish Christian) who explained this to me very well. Jewish Rabbi's usual mean exactly what they say Hindsite. Even in Jesus time.

You said "usually" but Jesus was not always straightforward. Notice his many parables.

And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "
(Matthew 13:10-13 NASB)

Matthew 13:24-30; :36-43 Jesus: The Parable of the Weeds



What did Jesus mean when He spoke of living water?

https://www.gotquestions.org/living-water.html
#14993897
Hindsite wrote:I believe that miracles happen once in awhile, but every time the communion service is given is a bit much to swallow, especially when there is a more reasonable explanation for what Jesus meant. Do you actually get the taste of blood in your mouth when you take communion? I care about all Christians, but I just hate Christians to become delusional and believe in crazy stuff that is not necessary for salvation.




I'm going to quote from the Gospel of John Chapter 6, verses 25-71. The verses in question use the Greek word of ''eat'' that has the connotation of very literally gnawing and chewing, real food. It was not a symbol or metaphor. So much so was this understood by the listeners, that most of Jesus' disciples actually left Him upon hearing it. But here I go (emphasis in bold);


John 6:25-71 King James Version (KJV)

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.



57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


This is the real litmus test of true Christianity; will a believer believe that he can eat and drink the living flesh and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so that unlike regular food we might be incorporated into Him as His Body, instead of us eating regular food and it being incorporated into us?

One won't be able to notice the change from bread and wine to flesh and blood, one can only take it on absolute faith since by all appearances things remain the same, (this faith is a gift, given by grace and is unearned) and it's as hard a saying as when God asked Saint Abraham to sacrifice Saint Isaac his only son, on mount Moriah.

And Christ Jesus made it so perfectly clear what He meant that many of His false ''followers'' left Him after He said it. They still do prove their falseness in this and other matters, not truly believing in such a simple yet profound Miracle.

I will not speak any more of this, because it is a miracle, and either you'll see it someday or you won't. Someday I pray that you will. God bless you.
#14993913
Of cause the difference between the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church when it comes to communion is that the Roman Church always uses Unleavened Bread.

I've forgotten @annatar1914 , does your Orthodox church use Leavened bread?

It's a minor difference but an important one nonetheless. I know it's use represents the New Covernant theologically in your churches, and obviously the Roman church takes the position Jesus was Jewish so he used Matzah.
#14993923
colliric wrote:Of cause the difference between the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church when it comes to communion is that the Roman Church always uses Unleavened Bread.

I've forgotten @annatar1914 , does your Orthodox church use Leavened bread?

It's a minor difference but an important one nonetheless. I know it's use represents the New Covernant theologically in your churches, and obviously the Roman church takes the position Jesus was Jewish so he used Matzah.


Yes, this is why in the earliest stages of the Schism, Latins were called ''Azymites'' by the Orthodox, to delineate what we thought of as error in that particular issue.

Most of our issues between Papism (a theological term to us, not so much a slur as employed by the Protestants) and Orthodoxy appear like minor differences but are important ones, with questions that lie in the theology of the Trinity, of Christology/Soteriology, of Ecclesiology, Mariology, and the theology of the Liturgy also.
#14993987
annatar1914 wrote:I'm going to quote from the Gospel of John Chapter 6, verses 25-71. The verses in question use the Greek word of ''eat'' that has the connotation of very literally gnawing and chewing, real food. It was not a symbol or metaphor. So much so was this understood by the listeners, that most of Jesus' disciples actually left Him upon hearing it. But here I go (emphasis in bold);

This is the real litmus test of true Christianity; will a believer believe that he can eat and drink the living flesh and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so that unlike regular food we might be incorporated into Him as His Body, instead of us eating regular food and it being incorporated into us?

One won't be able to notice the change from bread and wine to flesh and blood, one can only take it on absolute faith since by all appearances things remain the same, (this faith is a gift, given by grace and is unearned) and it's as hard a saying as when God asked Saint Abraham to sacrifice Saint Isaac his only son, on mount Moriah.

And Christ Jesus made it so perfectly clear what He meant that many of His false ''followers'' left Him after He said it. They still do prove their falseness in this and other matters, not truly believing in such a simple yet profound Miracle.

I will not speak any more of this, because it is a miracle, and either you'll see it someday or you won't. Someday I pray that you will. God bless you.

If you don't like the word "symbolically" then how about "spiritually" instead. It is clear from John's account that many of the people did not realize Jesus was speaking spiritually when He said, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger." Obviously, he is not referring to physical hunger. Jesus goes on to say, "...he that believeth on Me shall never thirst." Jesus is also the spiritual source of the "living water" of eternal life. Jesus is simply using physical ideas to express spiritual concepts. It is the same spiritual concept of being born again -- not physically entering back into the mother's womb and being born physically again.

The physical matzo wafers that we take at communion service do not have any miraculous powers to turn into the body of Christ. That is complete nonsense and not at all what Jesus was trying to get across to His listeners. The simple idea is to trust and believe in the One that God sent down from heaven for our eternal life. In other words:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 KJV)

In your quote of John 6:40 the same idea was repeated as follows:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

HalleluYah
#14993994
Hindsite wrote:If you don't like the word "symbolically" then how about "spiritually" instead. It is clear from John's account that many of the people did not realize Jesus was speaking spiritually when He said, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger." Obviously, he is not referring to physical hunger. Jesus goes on to say, "...he that believeth on Me shall never thirst." Jesus is also the spiritual source of the "living water" of eternal life. Jesus is simply using physical ideas to express spiritual concepts. It is the same spiritual concept of being born again -- not physically entering back into the mother's womb and being born physically again.

The physical matzo wafers that we take at communion service do not have any miraculous powers to turn into the body of Christ. That is complete nonsense and not at all what Jesus was trying to get across to His listeners. The simple idea is to trust and believe in the One that God sent down from heaven for our eternal life. In other words:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 KJV)

In your quote of John 6:40 the same idea was repeated as follows:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

HalleluYah


So far, you unfortunately have not passed the test of faith, and speak of miracles, especially this miracle, in a disparaging way curiously similar to how atheists and secularists, ''rationalists'' and the like... Not only that, but you were insulting and spoke language that is frankly blasphemous against Christ and His Church according to my faith and that of many millions of good Christians.

You support the wealthy Elites, and death and destruction in the Middle East for Jews and Christians and Muslims to ''carry out'' your twisted end-times fantasies, so it comes as no real surprise that you deny in a diabolical and offensive manner the very foundations of genuine Christian teaching and practice for over 20 centuries now.

Consider this the end of our discussions. Except to say that with the end of the Zionist experiment in 20 to 40 years at most, people like you will be the first to convert to Islam in your radical disappointment. You heard it hear first.
Last edited by annatar1914 on 15 Mar 2019 05:11, edited 1 time in total.
#14993995
annatar1914 wrote:So far, you unfortunately have not passed the test of faith, and speak of miracles, especially this miracle, in a disparaging way curiously similar to how atheists and secularists, ''rationalists'' and the like... Not only that, but you were insulting and spoke language that is frankly blasphemous against Christ and His Church according to my faith and that of many millions of good Christians.

You support the wealthy Elites, and death and destruction in the Middle East for Jews and Christians and Muslims to ''carry out'' your twisted end-times fantasies, so it comes as no real surprise that you deny in a diabolical and offensive manner the very foundations of genuine Christian teaching and practice for over 20 centuries now.

You continue to make false statements about me, but what is worse, you make false statements about our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. Jesus was not telling us to be cannibals.
#14993997
Hindsite wrote:You continue to make false statements about me, but what is worse, you make false statements about our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.


Take it up with Him. He will prove you wrong, very wrong.
#14997877
I will say this: One of the reasons I've always been pro Israel is, because of the staggering amount of positive technology that flows from that tiny country. Absolutely amazing; and they leave Muslim nations in the dust. Israel turned the desert green; and that's just a drop in the bucket when other areas of technology are taken into account. The list is endless. More contributions to the world in 75 years , than all Islamic nations combined in 1,400 years. Jews believe in education. Old adage: "If you think education is expensive, check the price of ignorance". There are about 15 million Jews on the planet, and about 1.5 billion Muslims. Take the time to check how many Jews have been awarded the Nobel Prize; and then how many Muslims.
#14998230
Jim wrote:Take the time to check how many Jews have been awarded the Nobel Prize; and then how many Muslims.


As impressive as that is, the Jews cannot lay can to having preserved all the Greek classics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmiss ... k_Classics

We have to thank the Muslims for it.
#14998240
Jim wrote:I will say this: One of the reasons I've always been pro Israel is, because of the staggering amount of positive technology that flows from that tiny country. Absolutely amazing; and they leave Muslim nations in the dust. Israel turned the desert green; and that's just a drop in the bucket when other areas of technology are taken into account. The list is endless. More contributions to the world in 75 years , than all Islamic nations combined in 1,400 years. Jews believe in education. Old adage: "If you think education is expensive, check the price of ignorance". There are about 15 million Jews on the planet, and about 1.5 billion Muslims. Take the time to check how many Jews have been awarded the Nobel Prize; and then how many Muslims.

You should thank the United States of America for that.
#14998242
colliric wrote:As impressive as that is, the Jews cannot lay can to having preserved all the Greek classics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmiss ... k_Classics

We have to thank the Muslims for it.

Why should we thank Muslims for trashing our civilisations and enslaving and brightest minds?
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