[Tailz]

The mayhem in the Middle East is not because of Israel but in spite of Israel. Sadly, it reflects a deminishing of Israels power in the region. For decades Israel by its presence was, almost unwittingly, the glue that binded the warring Arab world together & stopped them sliding into all out war & conflict with each other.
With Israels power deminishing, we see the Arab world unravelling.

Le-sigh, here we see your usal rhetoric, they are all evil, they are the cause of all problems, Israel is the enlignthed angel of the middle east and can do no wrong.

Firstly what is happening in the middle east, the Arab Spring, has very little to do with Israel and more to do with Arab governments staying in power far too long, or leaders (such as Assad) who don't want to relinquish power and the privilege that goes with it (or in the case of Assad, has gotten himself into such a bind by fighting against reform that he can no longer give up power without the reformists seeking retribution against him because of what he has done with that power. Like in Egypt, Assad can't leave office without ending up in the dock on charges of abuse of authority and crimes against the people of the state).

Where Israel does come into context as far as the Arab spring, is via it's big brother America in propping up governments that have now been deposed because Israel & America wanted governments in place that were amenable/flexible towards Israeli and American interests - thus why Egypt may re-negotiate the terms of it's agreements with Israel and America when a new government comes in (if a new government comes in). You have criticized the Egyptians for this desire to renegotiate the deals, but what they want is a level playing field in negotiations, not a field that is tipped in Israel's favor because if they don't play ball the Israeli's will pull some strings and get the Americans to pull some support. Yet you play this up as "They hate us Jews" when what they demand is a level playing field.

Next is Israel's supposed loss of power in the region. Israel is still the dominant power in the middle east, but what Israel has lost is the international communities belief in Israel's sincerity towards peace with the Palestinians and the wider Middle eastern community.

You are partially correct that the collective animosity towards Israel has bound the Arab states together under a common cause.

But Israel's waning power (which is not waning at all, but Israel is just as strong now as it was years ago) is not what has caused the Arab spring, Arab dictators, political stagnation, and lack of freedom are what caused the Arab spring. Not waning Israeli power.

Jeez Moshe, why don't you just say the light that grows the worlds plants shines out of Israel's ass. You obviously think it does.

Israel's relationship with the Palestinians and the wider Arab community is far more complex than you can even fathom.

Your solution to the Arab spring appears to be: Give Israel all the power, and everything will be all right in the morning. In essence: Israeli dominance, Arab/Gentile subservience to that dominance will result in peace. Peace comes from equality, not dominance and subservience, that comes from the Master and Slave relationship - and the Arab Spring is the result of that relationship: When the Politically Enslaved Population rose up against its Political Masters.

[Buzz62]

HERE HERE!
It is so refreshing to read naked truth for a change.

Thanks Tailz

[Moshe]

Tailz wrote:
"here we see your usal rhetoric, they are all evil, they are the cause of all problems, Israel is the enlignthed angel of the middle east and can do no wrong."

What gives you that idea? Certainly not anything I wrote.

The swo-called "Arab Spring" is nothing but a rising of mideval reactionary Islamism against modernity and reform in the Arab world.
The two most enlightened Arab regimes- Egypt & Tunisia- were the first to be hit by t6his "spring". The reason for this is NOT "dictatorship" or represion in those countries, but instead reform and liberalism on the part of those regimes.
Both Egypt and Tunisia were uniqely enlightened with respect with womens rights and also minority rights. This is what caused outrage with the ultra-reactionary socially conservative Islamists. They could not stomach women having rights or the toleration of non-Islamic minorities.
That was the spark that lit the Arab spring. A deeply reactionary revolt against modernity and enlightenment.
The Western media portrayed it as something it was not.

The USA SHOULD have been supporting its liberal allies in the region such as Mubarak, but instead was very quick to unceremoniously ditch them

[Tailz]

The swo-called "Arab Spring" is nothing but a rising of mideval reactionary Islamism against modernity and reform in the Arab world.
The two most enlightened Arab regimes- Egypt & Tunisia- were the first to be hit by t6his "spring". The reason for this is NOT "dictatorship" or represion in those countries, but instead reform and liberalism on the part of those regimes.
Both Egypt and Tunisia were uniqely enlightened with respect with womens rights and also minority rights. This is what caused outrage with the ultra-reactionary socially conservative Islamists. They could not stomach women having rights or the toleration of non-Islamic minorities.
That was the spark that lit the Arab spring. A deeply reactionary revolt against modernity and enlightenment.
The Western media portrayed it as something it was not.

Again your showing how much you don't understand what is going on. The Arab Spring was staged mainly by secular groups and students. But the secular movements didn't have any kind of political body setup as a replacement government body for when those governments collapsed. While in comparison the Muslim Brotherhood already had a body they could put forwards as a political replacement body. So the Muslim Brotherhood was in a prime position to take advantage of the fall of those governments which was brought about by mostly secular protests. Thus why we see even now in Egypt that the Islamist movements were mostly quiet during the Arab Spring, and have only since the actual fall of the government and the growth of political power of the Muslim Brotherhood, started to stage their own protests or sidelined the secular protests with their own issues. There have even been confrontations between secularist protestors and Islamist protestors when the Islamists thought the secularists were demanding far too progressive reform, eg: secular reform.

Had you been paying attention to what was going on, you would know this.

The USA SHOULD have been supporting its liberal allies in the region such as Mubarak, but instead was very quick to unceremoniously ditch them

And this is a good example of why there is animosity towards Israel and the USA from the Arab Spring, because Israel and the USA propped up people like Mubarak.

[Moshe]

Tailz, how do you define "the Arab Spring"?
Do you think it had widespread popular support?
Certainly secular forces were used in Cairo, but the whole thing was a manipulation by the Muslim Brotherhood who received explicit support from US Prez Barak Obama who stipulated early on that the MB must be part of any new Egyptian government.
Are you saying that women having equal rights in Israel, & a relatively liberal attitude towards gay people there are reasons for the hostility of those in the "Arab Spring" to Israel? If so, this just re inforces what I said.
The most vocal voices in the Arab Spring in Tunisia attacked the government for protecting the country's Jewish minority from attack & for its liberal polocies towards women which found women well established in education & the work place & a considerable degree of civil rights. Western liberals should really have been congratulating the old regime for these achievements, not championing its obscurantist opponents

[Tailz]

Tailz, how do you define "the Arab Spring"?

The Arab Spring was - or still is ongoing - a collection of popular uprisings against governments, leaders, politicians, police states, etc, by the people. There was no singular "Arab Spring" but rather a collection of events that occurred around the same time, with some groups inspired to carry out mass protests about their local issues after seeing/hearing about how the people in the state next door carried out a mass protest. So the Arab Spring is not a single event that just got bigger, it is many little events, each happening because of local grievances.

Do you think it had widespread popular support?

Depends what you think "wide spread popular support" is. If you think that wide spread popular support means the whole Middle East Arab community stood together as one and demanded liberty and equality like some reply of the French Revolution, you would be wrong. As I wrote above, each uprising was about their own issues. And to differing degrees, each uprising had, to a degree, a modicum of local support - otherwise without the local support, those uprisings would have just been fringe elements making a lot of noise. But as we can see in Egypt and Lybia, there was local popular support against the government. While in Syria, the popular support is sporadic and tribal (as it also was in Lybia).

Certainly secular forces were used in Cairo, but the whole thing was a manipulation by the Muslim Brotherhood who received explicit support from US Prez Barak Obama who stipulated early on that the MB must be part of any new Egyptian government.

I'd like to see you prove the Muslim Brotherhood who received explicit support from US Prez Barak Obama. I think Obama has stipulated that a peaceful political transition to a multi-party democracy should involve all political parties - which would involve the Muslim Brotherhood as one of those parties - but specific support for the Muslim Brotherhood in the style you seem to be hinting, eg: Obama trying to position the Muslim Brotherhood to be the next Egyptian government, I am yet to be convinced of this - and frankly I think this is just your anti-Obama Islamophobia fear-mongering.

As your accusation that the Muslim Brotherhood manipulating the secular "forces" into overthrowing the Egyptian government - then I would have expected the Muslim Brotherhood to have been quite prominent during the early protests against Mubarak, which was not the case as even the BBC reporters found it curious that the Muslim Brotherhood was nowhere to be seen and only started to stage protests once the Government had actually fallen.

Are you saying that women having equal rights in Israel, ...

Women are losing their equal rights in Israel because of pandering to appease the Ultra Orthodox community that seek separation between men and women. So Israel is actualy failing in that regard.

... & a relatively liberal attitude towards gay people there are reasons for the hostility of those in the "Arab Spring" to Israel? If so, this just re inforces what I said.

No it does not, because what you just listed: Sexual equality and Gay rights in Israel (which is a straw-man argument by the way). Has nothing to do with the criticism Israel has received for being one of the states that propped up Mubarak's government in order to benefit from Mubarak being in power. While if we look at Yemen, America has been criticized for supporting a Government with military hardware and training (for the purpose of fighting an Islamic insurgency) that has been used not only to attack terrorist groups, but as a tool against the population and political opponents as well.

The most vocal voices in the Arab Spring in Tunisia attacked the government for protecting the country's Jewish minority from attack & for its liberal polocies towards women which found women well established in education & the work place & a considerable degree of civil rights. Western liberals should really have been congratulating the old regime for these achievements, not championing its obscurantist opponents

Can you provide evidence to support this hypotheses?

[oppose_obama]

The fall of assad would be good for the US and bad for russia. therefore i am for the fall of assad

[Moshe]

Tailz, I do not oppose Obama. In fact, I support6 him as a voice of sanity against the extremists opposing him.
However, due to his inexperience in foreign polocy & poor advice, he did make some major mistakes.
One was forcing the PA to impose pre-conditions for talks with Israel. He later reversed his position on this.
The second, at the time before Mubarak resigned, Robert Gates on behalf of the US government was demanding Mubarak leaves power "now" & explicitly stated that the Muslim Brotherhood must be a part of any new Egyptian government

Womens equality is being challenged in Israel by a bunch of fanatics & the authorities are not doing enough to stop these guys enforcing their backward and illegal (under Israeli law) demands.
Even so, the position of women in Israel is very advanced compared to that in other middle eastern countries.

As to the "Arab Spring" I think this is a nonsense invented by western media and Al Jazeera.
Circumstances & motivations in different Arab countries are quite different.
In Egypt and Tuninia the "revolutions" have resulted in a backward direction.
Tunisia was a stable country where women were becomming prominent in higher education & the workplace & enjoyed a measure of freedom rare in the Arab world.
Similarly, the tiny Jewish community that remained were well regarded and enjoyed protection from attack by extremists.
During the revolution, cartoons of the president portrayed him as a stereotypical Jew with a hooked nose, a yamulka & a star of david. Since the revolution there have been sporadic attacks on Jews & mobs have gathered outside Synagogues preventing worshipers from entering.
Women in Tunisia have expressed fear of their freedoms being taken away.
So far the public statements by the "moderate" Islamist government have been encouraging. They have said they will not be encroaching on womens rights, & have issued assurances to the Jewish community & even invited exiled Tunisian Jews to return. So we shall see.

In Egypt, it is a stand off between the Musl;im Brotherhood & the Army. Already, the position of women in Egypt has worsened.

In Libya the whole thing was orchestrated by European powers, & on the ground Al Quaida forces from outside Libya were involved in ousting Gadafi.
Gadafi was an eccentric & a maverick. Outspoken & strongly anti "imperialist", he never the less lampooned Arab hypocrisy & was a strong ally of the West against Al Qauida & Islamist extremists. It was largely Britain & France responsible for ousting him & letting in a motley collection of tribalists & Al Quaida operatives,

In Syria the uprising began as a largely secular & democratic force but it looks like the Islamists may swoop in to take the prize when Assad does fall