Honestly what do you know about it? Israel never attempted a fair, open hand - since the very first hours of zionism, these Arabs are despicted as lower form of parasitic life that infests the land God gave to you.
Really? then how come things were so fine and dandy back when the zionist first started settling here? It's a known fact that at the first twenty years of such when the first jew came here they had -fantastic- relationship with the arab villeges? please, check local history books at your lesuire. And you think -that's- how they were despicted?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_New_LandWritten by the founder of Zionsim himself. His vision, my vision, and many other Zionist's vision.
Yeah, but they're winning nonetheless. These people have a far longer view than our ready-to-consume societies. What would you do if you were in their place? Let Ehud Barak speak:
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
And why would it be bad? From a Palestinian perspective, terrorism worked pretty well for the zionists.
You fail to give a single reason how they are -winning- your only -fact- is the hope they will just win some day.
The funny thing is -that's- what keeps them losing over and over, it's laughble thing really, for over 60 years the arab world always does what you are doing, proclaiming our time is at end, Israel will cease to excsist, blah blah...
And nothing happens O_o
Maybe it's because...they don't actully -do- anything meaningful?
But come on, give me a meaningful fact as to -why- the palistinans are winning.
I wouldn't deny that my goverement used Terrorism, for both good and bad.
The difference is that Israel is being pragmatic with it, it uses it when it has a clear defintion of achieving it's goals.
The Palistinans are made of dozens of so crack pot groups, lacking any sort of unity and by that, solid goals to which achieve their aims. The end result is that their glorious operation to free palastine is some kid sneaking into a jewish home and murdering all of the family whilst they sleep. Morality aside of the matter, but on a pure pragmatic aspect, I will ask you, what the -hell- does that achieve?
Arab nationalism would bad... if it happened in, say Europe. But there, on their turf, it's not only a whim, but a need in the face of all the abuses they endure.
Arab nationlism started mostly based on the aspect of pride, not abuse, the jews were much more funded, and thus able to buy more land, they also stopped hiring arabs as guards and workers, thus preventing arabs from economical oppertunities, in their shatterd pride they started trying to form their own national identity, a admirable prospect, but it was constently beast by extreme factions, that often led to clashes and violence between the two groups. Of course, same can be said about zionism.
In the end the jews won, we failed to share the country, we went to war, and we won, thus it's kinda obvious the loser will suffer more abuse, but don't sell me that cracked up tale that since the zionist first landed here the arabs were just victims here all around, Zionists made mistakes, the arabs made mistakes, move on.
Pretty much all of Iran's neighbours have been invaded so far - many of them wrongly. You can't blame Iran for wanting to arm itself - yes, conventional armement would be better, if Israel wasn't in possession of the bomb. As experience proved, when you have the bomb the US (and Israel) leave you alone.
In Israel's case, it's different; These weapons are a way to say "if you invade us we blow everything to pieces - you, us, them. Better death than no Israel".
But, you said a few posts back...
You are ready to march against Iran, who isn't even a neighbours, but would be weary of winning the hearts and minds in Syria? Figures. Israel isn't noted for its international implication.
So here you claimed israel has no need to worry about a country that they don't even share borders with, but Iran -can- worry? O_o abit hypocriitic, don't you think?
And I like how you just ignored my yom Kippur refrence as well regerding your instistence about our "trigger happy" nature, yes, we are sometimes abit too light on the nature, but you are just taking things to an extreme.
Dormin, the country that actively oppresses its people already does what it wants in the middle east. Be frank; would you rather be a Jew in Iran or a Palestinian in the Occupied Territories?
Only that you keep forgetting there's several hostile factions within the palistinan populace which sadly gives a reason for the opression, what did the Iranan deserved to be opressed?
Hell, look at the Israeli arabs, they are usually quiet, and whilst yes, there's prosecution, they are hardly opressed in any way.
Here! to make things simple!
Palistinans + terrorist acts = opression
Israeli arab + being peaceful = No opression
Iranan + being peaceful = Opression
If we stop agressing it, Iran will re-embark in the league of "respectable nations" just like China did; It is a big country, full of young, progressive people that grew up using the world web. The Mullahs are on their last miles. [/quote]
If we will -stop-? dude! the reason we started to begin with was -because- they started throwing threats in the air, devloping their nuclear energy and funding terrorist, not the other way around. Hell, no one in israel didn't gave two shits about Iran before 2005
You patron nation did, the only one who did, twice, against an disarmed civilian population of a country that was on the verge of defeat. And they're quite proud of it. Isreal not only has nukes; The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment says Israel has undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.
What would be your reaction if one of Israel's neighbours had this? Once again walk a mile in their shoes.[/quote]
What hack of a way to divert the discussion. let me remind you
To the contrary, it would bring more stability in the M-East. Will that make Iran a leader among arab nations? Yes! And it's alright like that. Unification is an understandable, even vital processus in the face of the abuses these nations got. I am much more afraid about your nukes, that seem to exist solely as an "auto-destruct" switch.
It's about -you- accusing us of being trigger happy with the nukes, to which I showed you, that even when we were -sure- we were doomed in Yom kippur, we -didn't- used the nukes, and your answer is to suddenly bring up the united states? as though it's any sort of reasoning? give me a break.
Things change. People adapt. Look at Hizbollah. Look at Rome's downfall at the hands of barbarians, that yet adopted their enemies methods and equipement.
Yes, again absolutly not making any sense at all, -explain- with more detail because i'm not a mind reader. And you once again fail to bring any source of valid information to the table and just using ambigious wordings.
Why wouldn't they? Genetical inferiority?
Am I dead yet? O_o dear god, -read- the question. -read- what I said.
HOW. DO. THEY. WIN?
I don't believe you are a zionist - maybe along the pre-1948 sense of the word, but by 1948 this sense was fullfilled - you had your nation. No, for me, a XXIst century zionist is the one that wants more - like all of Eretz Yisrael. Your ultra-orthodox are pretty much the living image of these zionists. Many zionists do not live in Israel - some live in the West Bank and in occidental nation - and a lot of them are not even Jewish.
Don't let yourself be called a zionist - I believe you are much more worthy than that. You are no zionist, you are a patriot.
Don't define for us what a Zionist is, go read wiki or everywhere else to see what it stand and what it does'nt, you will see both the good and the bad it in it.
The sole fault of Zionism was it's naivety. It started as a dream turned to reality, but we failed to see the reality which was that -another- people were already living here.
If you will take your time to read what Zionism is about, you will see the problem, it clearly refers to the goals of the jewish people, but completely ignores the arabs. No clear goals about what the arabs will be, just the assumption they wouldn't mind living in Israel as much as they didn't mind living in the Otomanian empire.
It doesn't claim jews need to kick all the others out, or that the arabs are inferior, but just that it never occured to people back then the arabs would have that much problem, as I explained before, the arabs and jews did quite well at the first years.
Zionism is now comproised of two groups, post zionists like me, who believe our intial goal has been fulfiled and now we need to normalize our relations with our people, and set to it that there's no contrediction that the land of the jews, will be the land of the palistinans as well.
The other group you guys keep refering to are the neo zionist, who deems it necssry that Israel will be a country with only jew indenty, nutjobs who want to kick all the arabs out. So if you are so inclined to generlize, might as well call them "Neo zionists" instead.
But really, I don't need to bother much, you need this group to drop all these problems on right? makes things so much simple when there's this -evil- group that works around the clock to make the world a shittier place amirite? takes away all that annoying grey out of the way.
So yes, despite your claims and perceptions, factual wise I am a zionist for I -believe- Israel is the homeland of the jewish people. But besides that I also don't see why it can't be the palistinan's as well.
But please, don't let me get away with your generlization, hate, and wishing I will just die already.