Iran renews threat to "wipe Israel off the map" - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14077994
MVictorP wrote:

"You" were even less before 1948 and yet you had a brighter future than you have today. We expect some occidental values from Israel, because that's always what Israel uses to sell itself to the west - look at our nice, west-like society, and then look at their barbarous ones!!!

Israel is a nation that was conceived in the occident, not in the physical place it hold in the levant.


Yes, compared to their socities, we do pretty well, considering that when we protest, our goverment doesn't shoot at us amonst other things. We aren't perfect, we do some pretty nasty things, and I won't cover my ears about them. I don't agree to say Israel is a shining becon of Western enlightment, but we are hardly the monster you paint us to be.

And yes, we were concived in the occident, big fucking mistake, mistake that happend more then 80 years ago, I was -born- here, this is -my- home. What do you want me to do? repent over the sins of my ancestors? go back to Poland? greek? Germany? what is your point?

you honestly believe the arab world is just made of poor wittle farmers who suffer under the Israeli heel? look around you! when they aren't busy trying to kill us, they are busy killing each -other-! it's not that I think the arab people are violent, but their culture as of now sure is! So yes, we occupy the palistinans, yes, we threaten war against Iran, but in this given situasion, you honestly think -your- people would have done better?


MVictorP wrote:
There. You do it - exactly like I wrote, You are facing "savages". Yet, they wouldn't be so savage, maybe, if we (the west) didn't fuck their nascent democraties or exploit them for their ressources while corrupting their lofty monarchs. The division of the Arabs/Persian (okay, granted, that was rather easy) is essential to occidental interest in the region. God preserve us from an unified front! As long as their only choices are absolute monarchy or Islamist regime, things will go the west's way.


What if, what would have happen, yeah I get it.

But we are talking about the god damned present, not the past, whatever turned them to savages, as right as you may be, doesn't exclude from what I say, -we- have to deal with this, and you can't deal with it the way you treat your nice european neighbour.

You don't really negate anything I just said. Just going "YEAH! BUT IT'S BECAUSE OF THIS AND THAT"

Yes, I get it, doesn't change any of my views though.
#14077997
MVictorP wrote:

"You" were even less before 1948 and yet you had a brighter future than you have today. We expect some occidental values from Israel, because that's always what Israel uses to sell itself to the west - look at our nice, west-like society, and then look at their barbarous ones!!!

Israel is a nation that was conceived in the occident, not in the physical place it hold in the levant.


Yes, compared to their socities, we do pretty well, considering that when we protest, our goverment doesn't shoot at us amonst other things. We aren't perfect, we do some pretty nasty things, and I won't cover my ears about them. I don't agree to say Israel is a shining becon of Western enlightment, but we are hardly the monster you paint us to be.

And yes, we were concived in the occident, big fucking mistake, mistake that happend more then 80 years ago, I was -born- here, this is -my- home. What do you want me to do? repent over the sins of my ancestors? go back to Poland? greek? Germany? what is your point?


MVictorP wrote:
There. You do it - exactly like I wrote, You are facing "savages". Yet, they wouldn't be so savage, maybe, if we (the west) didn't fuck their nascent democraties or exploit them for their ressources while corrupting their lofty monarchs. The division of the Arabs/Persian (okay, granted, that was rather easy) is essential to occidental interest in the region. God preserve us from an unified front! As long as their only choices are absolute monarchy or Islamist regime, things will go the west's way.


What if, what would have happen, yeah I get it.

But we are talking about the god damned present, not the past, whatever turned them to savages, as right as you may be, doesn't exclude from what I say, -we- have to deal with this, and you can't deal with it the way you treat your nice european neighbour.
#14078016
Dormin wrote:Yes, compared to their socities, we do pretty well, considering that when we protest, our goverment doesn't shoot at us amonst other things. We aren't perfect, we do some pretty nasty things, and I won't cover my ears about them. I don't agree to say Israel is a shining becon of Western enlightment, but we are hardly the monster you paint us to be.


Israel is no monster - it is an abomination, an archaism, a golem. If I was Israeli, I would be green with shame. Heck, if I was merely a diaspora Jew, I would be ashamed!

And yes, we were concived in the occident, big fucking mistake, mistake that happend more then 80 years ago, I was -born- here, this is -my- home. What do you want me to do? repent over the sins of my ancestors? go back to Poland? greek? Germany? what is your point?


Stop mistreating those who are not of your tribe, and from whom you stole the land.

What if, what would have happen, yeah I get it.

But we are talking about the god damned present, not the past, whatever turned them to savages, as right as you may be, doesn't exclude from what I say, -we- have to deal with this, and you can't deal with it the way you treat your nice european neighbour.

You don't really negate anything I just said. Just going "YEAH! BUT IT'S BECAUSE OF THIS AND THAT"

Yes, I get it, doesn't change any of my views though.


Well, from what I see, only one way was ever tried with Palestine. Force. And it failed for more than 60 years now. Worse is, you will eventually lose, one way or another. You are doomed.

You want to know what to do? Either liberate Palestine or give everyone Israeli citizenship. Compensate those you have displaced or abused - I know you can afford it. Get rid of these nukes in the favor of a real, applicable defensive system that isn't the equivalent of the suicide bomber. And stop pissing your neighbours - help them to the contrary. You wrote the Arab world is in war with itself? Well, chose a side, honestly, and do not make the cynical move of backing the one that will sow shit the most, like you did with Hamas against Fatah.

Is this a magical solution? No! Things will continue to blow for at least two generations still. Ignore it! Don't leave no airtime for any extremist - cooler heads will prevail given time, if only the hot ones could stand down just a little.
#14078030
LehmanB wrote:If I was an Arab, I would be green with shame you are my supporter.

Except of course Lehman...he's right. Too bad he won't adapt this process for his fellow Quebecois...lol...just a subtle jab...

Lehman...in order to "fix" anything...one first needs to identify what's wrong with it.
This is the jist of Vic's posts in this thread.
And he is correct in prescribing such a rational approach.
#14078042
You remind me of myself five years ago, both of you, well...besides being the whole "Golem" thing...

Well, from what I see, only one way was ever tried with Palestine. Force. And it failed for more than 60 years now. Worse is, you will eventually lose, one way or another. You are doomed.


Oslo records mean anything? Olmert's proposel? no, look it up.

And I honestly don't understand your meaning about doom. Because we just use force we are doomed? we are just doomed all together?

But let's talk about what you said we -can- do. Yes, we have alot to do...but...

Question is -how- to reach this peaceful solution, you advice something totally rash and irresponsible, handing out -everything- to the palistinans immidatly, suffer a few bombings for twenty years or so! and boom! peace in our lands.

The problem with this is that arab world right now is like a powder keg, the balance of power keeps changing, things in the power structure are just -too- chaotic right now for any meaningful change to occuer, because the leaders we might speak to now might very well be changed the very next year.

And choose a side? are you -kidding-? let's look at the Syrian civil war. What do you want us to do? march in with tanks and help the rebals? help Assed? are you even aware what the implications will be?

Stop being so damned naive to think every single problem in the region comes from israel alone, yes, we play a big factor, but most of the hatred comes from what you said before, we are the last remenent of occident presence in the middle east. The solution must come efficetvly from both sides, not just us.

And what -should- be done? lift the siege for once, seeing Hamas is -trying- to play nice, start talking with them and -try- bridging the gap between them and Fatah, getting a unified Palistian leadership that could get their people under control.

-then- we can talk about peace. -then -we can talk about moving out of the occupied teritories.
#14078058
Dormin you also make some excellent points.
Change sucks! For most people anyways.
That's why there's a whole profession called "Change Management".
It sucks! People are adverse to it.

And yes...the Arab world today is a bloody mess.
Religious freaks on all sides...Dictators who's egos are bigger than their countries...Greed-driven maniacs who can justify any and all unjust actions by hiding behind some Gawd...indeed Dormin...a GAWD-DAMN MESS!

Yet...as a long-term tactic...it "might" be advantageous for Israel to NOW...quietly...begin to invite the Palestinians to the dinner table.
You know...subvert one source of "Arab Spring Crazy" by quietly mending relations internally within Israel. Remove that particular source of "Arab Spring Crazy"...if you will.

Just an idea...
#14078070
Israel is no monster - it is an abomination, an archaism, a golem. If I was Israeli, I would be green with shame. Heck, if I was merely a diaspora Jew, I would be ashamed!


You're patatic. So full of hate. You don't know what it means to be one and if I were you I wouldn't talk about things I DON"T KNOW.


See, you are a what I call a Brainwashed, like alot of leftist or "Peace" activists comes to provoke here at Israel.

Why "Peace"?
if they really wanted peace, they would have heard both sides, see the entire picture and not been brainwashed by palestinians.

See, I want peace, and it's not a slogan or something like that. But, seeing this young people, some of them are in my age, talk so much nonsense gives me a really frustrated feeling.

Victor, seriously, you don't know what you're talking about.

But hey, what the hell , it doesn't really matter , Isn't it?
#14078081
ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

Its an elusive thing.
And IMO the main reason its so elusive is, there are always at least 2 vantage points from which to discover it.
Thus both sides examine and come to conclusions based on their vantage point.

But I have learned that ABSOLUTE TRUTH generally lives quite hidden from sight...in plain view...somewhere in the middle of the 2 opposing truths. One only has to step out of one's vantage point before ABSOLUTE TRUTH can be discovered.

Now...having said that...we can continue the pedantic bickering if y'all like...for as pointless as it really is...
#14078211
LehmanB wrote:If I was an Arab, I would be green with shame you are my supporter.


And to think I was going to name LehmanB along with danholo as an exemple of a valid zionist poster - that tells you a lot about their corresponding qualities.

Dormin wrote:You remind me of myself five years ago, both of you, well...besides being the whole "Golem" thing...


Gustav Meyrink's Golem is one of the first horror stories, and you jews should take the lesson that's in there. Israel must fit the needs of the Jews, not the other way around.

Oslo records mean anything? Olmert's proposel? no, look it up.


Olso wasn't acceptable from a Palestinian perspective. Why recognize all the colonies built in the West Bank when they will rule over it 30 years from now with simple demographics? I meant leave all of Palestine along the 1967 lines. All of it, totally.

And I honestly don't understand your meaning about doom. Because we just use force we are doomed? we are just doomed all together?


Demographics will be your doom. The downfall of the USA will be your doom. Pan-arab nationalism will also be your doom. Why? Because you bet everything you had in force instead of peace. These guys have as long a memory as you Jews have.

But let's talk about what you said we -can- do. Yes, we have alot to do...but...

Question is -how- to reach this peaceful solution, you advice something totally rash and irresponsible, handing out -everything- to the palistinans immidatly, suffer a few bombings for twenty years or so! and boom! peace in our lands.


It's already done. You sowed enough hatred there for at least two more generations - more or less 30 years. Worse is, you already lost 60 years - if you had an open hand from the start, you would today live in peace with all of your neighbours, or almost.

You are going to lose, and no one will cry for it, just as no one cries for the disappearance of the Nazi regime, or South Afroca's apartheist one. You are the bad guys, and will be until you stop martyrizing these people you've done wrong to. Compensate the Palestinians and give them back their lands, even if only to clean your conscience. Then I'll back you.

The problem with this is that arab world right now is like a powder keg, the balance of power keeps changing, things in the power structure are just -too- chaotic right now for any meaningful change to occuer, because the leaders we might speak to now might very well be changed the very next year.

And choose a side? are you -kidding-? let's look at the Syrian civil war. What do you want us to do? march in with tanks and help the rebals? help Assed? are you even aware what the implications will be?


You are ready to march against Iran, who isn't even a neighbours, but would be weary of winning the hearts and minds in Syria? Figures. Israel isn't noted for its international implication.

Stop being so damned naive to think every single problem in the region comes from israel alone, yes, we play a big factor, but most of the hatred comes from what you said before, we are the last remenent of occident presence in the middle east. The solution must come efficetvly from both sides, not just us.


Your problem is; They have excellent reasons to hate you.

Correct that. Because, soon, they are going to win - and just one win is what they need.

And what -should- be done? lift the siege for once, seeing Hamas is -trying- to play nice, start talking with them and -try- bridging the gap between them and Fatah, getting a unified Palistian leadership that could get their people under control.

-then- we can talk about peace. -then -we can talk about moving out of the occupied teritories.


Experience and the present tense proves that the colonisation of the West Bank will continue, peace or not, unless the zionists are eliminated.
#14078224
Wrath_014 wrote:You're patatic. So full of hate. You don't know what it means to be one and if I were you I wouldn't talk about things I DON"T KNOW.


See, you are a what I call a Brainwashed, like alot of leftist or "Peace" activists comes to provoke here at Israel.

Why "Peace"?
if they really wanted peace, they would have heard both sides, see the entire picture and not been brainwashed by palestinians.

See, I want peace, and it's not a slogan or something like that. But, seeing this young people, some of them are in my age, talk so much nonsense gives me a really frustrated feeling.

Victor, seriously, you don't know what you're talking about.

But hey, what the hell , it doesn't really matter , Isn't it?


Pf!
#14078286
Oy, the impending doom. The apocalyptic scenarios are almost Biblical.

Israel certainly needs to annex the territories and give citizenship to the Palestinians, or withdraw completely from the territories. The former will most likely bring about war, and the latter might bring about war, also making Israel more vulnerable through conventional means.
#14078315
danholo wrote:Israel certainly needs to annex the territories and give citizenship to the Palestinians, or withdraw completely from the territories. The former will most likely bring about war, and the latter might bring about war, also making Israel more vulnerable through conventional means.

Is the formula presented by a person who see us doomed (wish us doomed) is not good than?
#14078581
Olso wasn't acceptable from a Palestinian perspective. Why recognize all the colonies built in the West Bank when they will rule over it 30 years from now with simple demographics? I meant leave all of Palestine along the 1967 lines. All of it, totally.


Something you are going to learn young gresshopper, change takes -time- even more so when it's to change something which has being going on for well over 40 years back then, one drastic change would more then incite the region into war and chaos and you have no grauntee it will last only 20 years, or 50 years, or just destroy everything here all togther, Oslo was to be the foundation upon which the trust of the Palistinans and israelis could be rebuilt. Sadly enough, Bibi came to power and made no serious effort to build up on this, and Arrefat proved himself to be a power hungry warlord.

Also you -still- haven't talked to me about Olmert's proposel, hell, also the Camp david accords.


Demographics will be your doom. The downfall of the USA will be your doom. Pan-arab nationalism will also be your doom. Why? Because you bet everything you had in force instead of peace. These guys have as long a memory as you Jews have.


Oh, I agree with you on that, one way or another, we are stuck in a sea full of arabs, the moment the west loses power we might as well kiss our butts goodbye, reason why I favour peace with the arab world and slow intergration.

It's already done. You sowed enough hatred there for at least two more generations - more or less 30 years. Worse is, you already lost 60 years - if you had an open hand from the start, you would today live in peace with all of your neighbours, or almost.

You are going to lose, and no one will cry for it, just as no one cries for the disappearance of the Nazi regime, or South Afroca's apartheist one. You are the bad guys, and will be until you stop martyrizing these people you've done wrong to. Compensate the Palestinians and give them back their lands, even if only to clean your conscience. Then I'll back you.


Oh yes, only israelis sowed hatred right? the arabs just sat at the sides and cried their heart out whilst the mean devil-zionist butcherd the lot of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots

Oops! wait! Uh...seems like that hrm...both sides had a go at each other? Oh dear!
Wouldn't you assume that maybe ah, tensions slowly started to rise as the years past, arabs attacking jews, jews attacking arabs...and then it all blew away to hell at 1948?

Naaah! let's keep with the story of the evil zionist, sounds so much sexier, everyone like a good story of colonials smacking the poor natives around!

You are ready to march against Iran, who isn't even a neighbours, but would be weary of winning the hearts and minds in Syria? Figures. Israel isn't noted for its international implication.


Quick question, A nation doesn't stop throwing threats at your country, funds terrorist groups that are against you, and now develop nuclear energy which might be very well used as an atom bomb...

Now wouldn't you be teeeeeeny tiny bit worried about that?


And as for the syria fiasco, do you, honestly to god -think- that any side wants to be known publicly as being backed by israel? are you out of your mind?
Never mind that, let's keep going with this weird plan of yours, let's say we -secretly- help one side hrm?
...What happens if that side loses? Oooops! Watch as more anti-zionists blame us for going "Elders of Zion" on the Syria civil war!


Your problem is; They have excellent reasons to hate you.

Correct that. Because, soon, they are going to win - and just one win is what they need.


Uh, with what? a giant slingshot? aged up soviet tech army? poorly trained militia?

But hey! I don't think my impending doom will come after -one- loss, maybe two, or three. Then again I posted about it before.


[/quote]Experience and the present tense proves that the colonisation of the West Bank will continue, peace or not, unless the zionists are eliminated.[/quote]

Zionist elimnated? uh, so what? you think the solution for the problem is to kill us all? O_o
#14078641
Dormin wrote:Something you are going to learn young gresshopper, change takes -time- even more so when it's to change something which has being going on for well over 40 years back then, one drastic change would more then incite the region into war and chaos and you have no grauntee it will last only 20 years, or 50 years, or just destroy everything here all togther, Oslo was to be the foundation upon which the trust of the Palistinans and israelis could be rebuilt. Sadly enough, Bibi came to power and made no serious effort to build up on this, and Arrefat proved himself to be a power hungry warlord.


I am totally aware of that - that's what I meant when I wrote that even with angelism in mind, you guys are going to suffer what have been sown before. We can't undo that.

Also you -still- haven't talked to me about Olmert's proposel, hell, also the Camp david accords.


All of these proposition have one goal - to make Palestinians accept zionist encrochement outside the 1967 Green line. It won't work.

Oh, I agree with you on that, one way or another, we are stuck in a sea full of arabs, the moment the west loses power we might as well kiss our butts goodbye, reason why I favour peace with the arab world and slow intergration.


There we agree. But the truly machiavelic zionist will wish, with all of his heart, that peace will never be signed because then, he will be forced to forget about Eretz Yisrael (a dream only achievable throught war). Generally, when one has the upper hand, war doesn't bother him.

Oh yes, only israelis sowed hatred right? the arabs just sat at the sides and cried their heart out whilst the mean devil-zionist butcherd the lot of them!


Hey, my friend, be it anywhere in the world, I bet no population would be sympathical if a large foreign group from elsewhere debarked and start taking control over the locals. Walk a mile in their shoes.

Oops! wait! Uh...seems like that hrm...both sides had a go at each other? Oh dear!
Wouldn't you assume that maybe ah, tensions slowly started to rise as the years past, arabs attacking jews, jews attacking arabs...and then it all blew away to hell at 1948?


Would have these troubles taken place without zionism?

Quick question, A nation doesn't stop throwing threats at your country, funds terrorist groups that are against you, and now develop nuclear energy which might be very well used as an atom bomb...


Sounds like you are describing Israel. Why does Israel have over 100 un-regulated nuclear warheads?

Now wouldn't you be teeeeeeny tiny bit worried about that?


To the contrary, it would bring more stability in the M-East. Will that make Iran a leader among arab nations? Yes! And it's alright like that. Unification is an understandable, even vital processus in the face of the abuses these nations got. I am much more afraid about your nukes, that seem to exist solely as an "auto-destruct" switch.

And as for the syria fiasco, do you, honestly to god -think- that any side wants to be known publicly as being backed by israel? are you out of your mind?
Never mind that, let's keep going with this weird plan of yours, let's say we -secretly- help one side hrm?
...What happens if that side loses? Oooops! Watch as more anti-zionists blame us for going "Elders of Zion" on the Syria civil war!


Well, start somewhere anyway - it could be by granting everybody Israeli citizenship in the West Bank, or financing public works abroad. Show good will. Be a part of the levant instead of a grafted finger that tries to reject the whole host. The locals are even more semitic than you are, after all. Do you for your own salute, your own conscience.

Uh, with what? a giant slingshot? aged up soviet tech army? poorly trained militia?


Hey, with what did you guys won the 1948 war? Aged up WWII weapons and militias. Plus, they have the numbers.

Zionist elimnated? uh, so what? you think the solution for the problem is to kill us all? O_o


To kill you? Nah. Just zionism.
#14078667
I am totally aware of that - that's what I meant when I wrote that even with angelism in mind, you guys are going to suffer what have been sown before. We can't undo that.


Yeah, again, you don't get it, what I mean is that a drastic change won't nescerily mean a few years of darkness and then good shall regin supreme in the land, hell I know we will have to suffer for what we did, but things just can't be done drasticly when one side is just no -ready- for this responsiblity, and when the palistianans are as busy as killing each other as well as killing us, you know they aren't ready.


All of these proposition have one goal - to make Palestinians accept zionist encrochement outside the 1967 Green line. It won't work.


Yes! so they must -keep- bashing their heads for demends they -know- won't get them anywhere! So, instead of being smart about this, they will keep crying, and shrilling, oh, and wishing we will just die our already.

Did them wonders for the past 60 years or so.

There we agree. But the truly machiavelic zionist will wish, with all of his heart, that peace will never be signed because then, he will be forced to forget about Eretz Yisrael (a dream only achievable throught war). Generally, when one has the upper hand, war doesn't bother him.


Yes, the truly machiavlist zionist will wish that, thankfully most zionists aren't that type.


Hey, my friend, be it anywhere in the world, I bet no population would be sympathical if a large foreign group from elsewhere debarked and start taking control over the locals. Walk a mile in their shoes.



And that's an excuse for what they did? their terrorist acts? better yet, did it do -anything- to win their freedom? whilst the cause of the arab is just, their method of using nothing but force has done them -nothing- in the long run. They have no state, they have nothing, you say that the way of using force for israel will spell doom for my country, and I agree, but same goes for the palistinan, the more they bash their heads against the wall, and not realize they have to change their tactics, they will end up losing -everything-

Hell, even Abbes admits they should have taken the country deal back at 1948 when they had the chance.

Would have these troubles taken place without zionism?


Would have these troubles taken place without good ol' arab nationalism? see what I did there?


Sounds like you are describing Israel. Why does Israel have over 100 un-regulated nuclear warheads?


I don't know, because we are surrounded by hostile countries? seems fair? who does Iran protects itself against? we don't share a border :p

To the contrary, it would bring more stability in the M-East. Will that make Iran a leader among arab nations? Yes! And it's alright like that. Unification is an understandable, even vital processus in the face of the abuses these nations got. I am much more afraid about your nukes, that seem to exist solely as an "auto-destruct" switch.


Soooo you want the country that activly opresses their people to lead the middle east? aren't you -against- opression?
See, that's the deal cutter regerding the nuclear deal. I don't really worry about the nuke, it's Iran turning to a regional power that worries me, and i'm all for a stable regional power, just not one that hangs homosexual, people who speak out against the goverment and all sorts of other nasties.

And auto destruct switch? man, we had these nukes back at the yom kippur war! when they were -this- close to closing the book on us.
Did we used the nukes?

Well, start somewhere anyway - it could be by granting everybody Israeli citizenship in the West Bank, or financing public works abroad. Show good will. Be a part of the levant instead of a grafted finger that tries to reject the whole host. The locals are even more semitic than you are, after all. Do you for your own salute, your own conscience.


Agreed there. not your...proposels and stuff, and your "semitic" comment seems rather shady at best about your intentions.

Lifting the siege for once, recognizing our fault for what happend in 1948, repayment and gredual return of the refugees.

Hey, with what did you guys won the 1948 war? Aged up WWII weapons and militias. Plus, they have the numbers.


You fail to see the reason why we keep winning, and they kept losing.

The arab world is a mess, it's disorganized, and not effective, same goes for the palistinans.

We on the other end, are united, we have our disagreements, sure, but when push comes to shove, we stand by each other.

Let's take the 1948 war shall we? know of the Altalena affair?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair

Long story short, we chose that instead of fighting one another over a boat, we will get over our differences and stand united.

Think i'm wrong? well hell, 60 years and still going baby! what the hell has changed in the world that -now- the arab world will manage to finally kill us?


To kill you? Nah. Just zionism.


I'm a zionist, Israel is my home, that's where I was born, and where my father was born, and where my grandfather was born. And yes, I believe Israel is the national home of the jewish people, but that doesn't mean it can't be -other- people's homes as well.
I'm willing to see the horrors my country has commited unjustly against the palistinans, and if it was up to me, would have recompenscate them and welcome them back.

But i'm also a realist, willing to see the place my ancestors chose as my home isn't perfect, it's violent and brutal, some of it because of my country, and i'm willing to make amends. But I won't lay down and wait to die because someone who doesn't even know what a Zionist means, let alone what actully happens around the area. thinks -I- should pay for sins commited by my ancestors.

This whole shitty conflicts keeps going because of fanatics on both sides, people like you and Lehman, who spends the days pointing fingers at one another about past sins instead of actully sitting down and try to reach a compromise.

But hey, i'm just a dirty zionist right?
#14078706
Dormin wrote:Yeah, again, you don't get it, what I mean is that a drastic change won't nescerily mean a few years of darkness and then good shall regin supreme in the land, hell I know we will have to suffer for what we did, but things just can't be done drasticly when one side is just no -ready- for this responsiblity, and when the palistianans are as busy as killing each other as well as killing us, you know they aren't ready.


Honestly what do you know about it? Israel never attempted a fair, open hand - since the very first hours of zionism, these Arabs are despicted as lower form of parasitic life that infests the land God gave to you.

Yes! so they must -keep- bashing their heads for demends they -know- won't get them anywhere! So, instead of being smart about this, they will keep crying, and shrilling, oh, and wishing we will just die our already.

Did them wonders for the past 60 years or so.

(...)And that's an excuse for what they did? their terrorist acts? better yet, did it do -anything- to win their freedom? whilst the cause of the arab is just, their method of using nothing but force has done them -nothing- in the long run. They have no state, they have nothing, you say that the way of using force for israel will spell doom for my country, and I agree, but same goes for the palistinan, the more they bash their heads against the wall, and not realize they have to change their tactics, they will end up losing -everything-


Yeah, but they're winning nonetheless. These people have a far longer view than our ready-to-consume societies. What would you do if you were in their place? Let Ehud Barak speak:

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

And why would it be bad? From a Palestinian perspective, terrorism worked pretty well for the zionists.

Yes, the truly machiavlist zionist will wish that, thankfully most zionists aren't that type.


More on that later.

Would have these troubles taken place without good ol' arab nationalism? see what I did there?


Arab nationalism would bad... if it happened in, say Europe. But there, on their turf, it's not only a whim, but a need in the face of all the abuses they endure.

I don't know, because we are surrounded by hostile countries? seems fair? who does Iran protects itself against? we don't share a border :p


Pretty much all of Iran's neighbours have been invaded so far - many of them wrongly. You can't blame Iran for wanting to arm itself - yes, conventional armement would be better, if Israel wasn't in possession of the bomb. As experience proved, when you have the bomb the US (and Israel) leave you alone.

In Israel's case, it's different; These weapons are a way to say "if you invade us we blow everything to pieces - you, us, them. Better death than no Israel".

Soooo you want the country that activly opresses their people to lead the middle east? aren't you -against- opression?


Dormin, the country that actively oppresses its people already does what it wants in the middle east. Be frank; would you rather be a Jew in Iran or a Palestinian in the Occupied Territories?

See, that's the deal cutter regerding the nuclear deal. I don't really worry about the nuke, it's Iran turning to a regional power that worries me, and i'm all for a stable regional power, just not one that hangs homosexual, people who speak out against the goverment and all sorts of other nasties.


If we stop agressing it, Iran will re-embark in the league of "respectable nations" just like China did; It is a big country, full of young, progressive people that grew up using the world web. The Mullahs are on their last miles.

And auto destruct switch? man, we had these nukes back at the yom kippur war! when they were -this- close to closing the book on us.
Did we used the nukes?


You patron nation did, the only one who did, twice, against an disarmed civilian population of a country that was on the verge of defeat. And they're quite proud of it. Isreal not only has nukes; The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment says Israel has undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.

What would be your reaction if one of Israel's neighbours had this? Once again walk a mile in their shoes.

Agreed there. not your...proposels and stuff, and your "semitic" comment seems rather shady at best about your intentions.


What about it?

Lifting the siege for once, recognizing our fault for what happend in 1948, repayment and gredual return of the refugees.

You fail to see the reason why we keep winning, and they kept losing.

The arab world is a mess, it's disorganized, and not effective, same goes for the palistinans.

We on the other end, are united, we have our disagreements, sure, but when push comes to shove, we stand by each other.


Things change. People adapt. Look at Hizbollah. Look at Rome's downfall at the hands of barbarians, that yet adopted their enemies methods and equipement.

Think i'm wrong? well hell, 60 years and still going baby! what the hell has changed in the world that -now- the arab world will manage to finally kill us?


Why wouldn't they? Genetical inferiority?

I'm a zionist, Israel is my home, that's where I was born, and where my father was born, and where my grandfather was born. And yes, I believe Israel is the national home of the jewish people, but that doesn't mean it can't be -other- people's homes as well.
I'm willing to see the horrors my country has commited unjustly against the palistinans, and if it was up to me, would have recompenscate them and welcome them back.

But i'm also a realist, willing to see the place my ancestors chose as my home isn't perfect, it's violent and brutal, some of it because of my country, and i'm willing to make amends. But I won't lay down and wait to die because someone who doesn't even know what a Zionist means, let alone what actully happens around the area. thinks -I- should pay for sins commited by my ancestors.

This whole shitty conflicts keeps going because of fanatics on both sides, people like you and Lehman, who spends the days pointing fingers at one another about past sins instead of actully sitting down and try to reach a compromise.

But hey, i'm just a dirty zionist right?


I don't believe you are a zionist - maybe along the pre-1948 sense of the word, but by 1948 this sense was fullfilled - you had your nation. No, for me, a XXIst century zionist is the one that wants more - like all of Eretz Yisrael. Your ultra-orthodox are pretty much the living image of these zionists. Many zionists do not live in Israel - some live in the West Bank and in occidental nation - and a lot of them are not even Jewish.

Don't let yourself be called a zionist - I believe you are much more worthy than that. You are no zionist, you are a patriot.
#14078738
Vic makes some really good points Dormin.
Especially the last one which I happen to agree with.
Lehman is a "classical modern Zionist".
You my friend, are an Israeli patriot.
The difference?
You don't really see the Palestinians and Arabs as illiterates who are beneath contempt.
You want peace. And you want it on terms that satisfy everyone to some degree, yet you understand the need for compromise.
Ask Lehman how he feels about compromise with Arabs...

The dye was cast a long time ago Dormin.
None of us were even born yet.
This is not what we would have done nor how we would have done it.

PEACE and HARMONY Dormin.
PEACE and HARMONY...finally...
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