[MememyselfandIJK]

@Zionist Nationalist, apparently freedom is shooting innocent Palestinians in the streets. Imperialist Logic.

[Zionist Nationalist]

I didnt said that but whatever

so apparently you are "trans" so did you disguise yourself into a woman or a man?

[skinster]

Both sides exhibit this phenomenon, as the Palestinians don't want Jews in their state ether.

Palestinians are yet to have their own state. It's only the Israelis denying Palestinians a state; it's not happening in the opposite direction.

An interesting issue has been Netanyahu trying to bait and switch that issue by saying he did not mind Jewish settlements remaining in place and becoming citizens of the Palestinian state. The Palestinians have in turn refused this, and so Netanyahu points to it as evidence of the xenophobia of the Palestinians.

That's not interesting, it's bullshit and very easy to say meaningless things since there won't be any action on this, since the there is no Palestinian state to date and the implementation of settlements that is ongoing in Palestinian territory makes the idea of a Palestinian state even more impossible.

Meanwhile favoring ideas of Population exchange to expel Palestinians from the state, while also taking measures to exclude Israeli Arabs from Israel as far as citizens rights with changes to the basic laws giving Jews exclusive rights to national self determination in the state.

Que?

Which is why I am not neutral. Just because I don't support ether side does not mean I am neutral. I am not neutral when it comes to doing right.

I agree it doesn't make you neutral, but on the side of the oppressor.

Not necessarily. Just nice literary prose to say "Your ether with us, or against us."

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Yet the truth is blind.

Actually everything has been well documented from before the 7 decades Israel became a state on top of the majority Arab population in the land of Palestine. The truth isn't blind, some are just willfully ignorant of it.

[MememyselfandIJK]

so apparently you are "trans" so did you disguise yourself into a woman or a man?

What the hell are you talking about?

[Tailz]

Palestinians are yet to have their own state. It's only the Israelis denying Palestinians a state; it's not happening in the opposite direction.

I agree. The power to create a Palestinian state rests in Israeli hands. For the moment, the Israelis are more interested about settlements than peace with the fellow over the fence.

That's not interesting, it's bullshit and very easy to say meaningless things since there won't be any action on this, since the there is no Palestinian state to date and the implementation of settlements that is ongoing in Palestinian territory makes the idea of a Palestinian state even more impossible.

Of course it is bullshit, thus why I termed it: bait and switch. The whole charade was to make the Palestinians look bad and gain international browny points.

"Oh look at the Palestinain racists who don't want Jews in their future state, while we the Jews have Arabs in our Jewish state. See we are not racists."

And of course they were not going to act on it.

Que?

Wha?

I agree it doesn't make you neutral, but on the side of the oppressor.

Really? On the side of the oppressor because I will not kowtow to your byline?

So you buy into the concept that those who are not in lock step with your point of view, are the enemy?

This is like being so stridently anti-Nazi as to wish to abolish Anti-Smoking laws because Hitler once introduced anti-smoking laws.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Your up to those kinds of recriminations?

Come now Skinster, I thought you were better than this.

Actually everything has been well documented from before the 7 decades Israel became a state on top of the majority Arab population in the land of Palestine. The truth isn't blind, some are just willfully ignorant of it.

The true is blind, it is how people try to portray the true, is where it gets tarnished. Metaphors aside, I quite agree the conflict has been documented, and many people are ignorant of its history, willingly or unknowingly ignorant depending upon their point of view (or the point of view they wish to create).

[Ter]

just out of curiosity:

- why would the Arabs be happy with an Israel restricted to the 1967 borders? After all they were fighting Israel before 1967 also.

- as one proof that giving up land for peace does not work, why is Hezbollah still active and aggressive in Lebanon? The UN has determined that Israel has withdrawn from all Lebanese territories.

- will the Arabs recognise Israel (in whatever borders) as a Jewish State? Just like there are 57 "Islamic States"? I don't think so.

- The most unsolvable remaining problem to achieve peace is not land but the return of the refugees and their four generations of offspring. That would automatically be the end of Israel as a Jewish State and impossible to accept from the Israeli perspective.

And so we move on to the next decade, the next generation and the next Century without peace. So be it.

Contrary to the propaganda on Twitter, life is almost normal for Israeli citizens. When I talk to some people there, the subjects are family, cost of living, education for the children, all the subjects that would come up with someone living in the West. The problems with the Arabs do not come up in the conversations.
Whatever abnormal aspects there are as security measures, terrorist atrocities from time to time, that has now become the new normal also in Europe and the US. And it is going to get worse.

There are no easy solutions and without the will for concessions (from both sides) things will continue as they are.

[Zionist Nationalist]

- as one proof that giving up land for peace does not work, why is Hezbollah still active and aggressive in Lebanon? The UN has determined that Israel has withdrawn from all Lebanese territories.

They use the sheeba farms as excuse but according to the UN its Syrian territory

And so we move on to the next decade, the next generation and the next Century without peace. So be it.

Thats right

we got so used to it we dont care about peace anymore

fuck the Arabs if they want war let them have it you've seen Gaza in 2014 it will be over and over again
worse for them

[Tailz]

just out of curiosity:

- why would the Arabs be happy with an Israel restricted to the 1967 borders? After all they were fighting Israel before 1967 also.

The same can be said of the Zionists. They were fighting the Arabs before '67, are currently building settlements here there and everywhere over the green line. And witht his far right government (which looks like it could be outted for an even further right government) are enacting laws and discussing laws to disempower the non-Jewish population of Israel.

So nether side is going to be happy.

- as one proof that giving up land for peace does not work, why is Hezbollah still active and aggressive in Lebanon? The UN has determined that Israel has withdrawn from all Lebanese territories.

Because without the "eternal enemy" to justify Hezbollah's continued existance, those who are empowered by it lose their status and wealth and power.

- will the Arabs recognise Israel (in whatever borders) as a Jewish State? Just like there are 57 "Islamic States"? I don't think so.

Would Israel recognize the Palestinian state along the same lines as a Uniquely Palestinian State?

- The most unsolvable remaining problem to achieve peace is not land but the return of the refugees and their four generations of offspring. That would automatically be the end of Israel as a Jewish State and impossible to accept from the Israeli perspective.

Not really, the Israeli's have already offered reparations and the Palestinians have already accepted such a proposal. But since no peace deal has been agreed, the fine details are still all negotiable.

And so we move on to the next decade, the next generation and the next Century without peace. So be it.

Yup, sadly so.

[Ter]

he same can be said of the Zionists. They were fighting the Arabs before '67, are currently building settlements here there and everywhere over the green line. And witht his far right government (which looks like it could be outted for an even further right government) are enacting laws and discussing laws to disempower the non-Jewish population of Israel.

You are evading my question, and it is an important one:
Before 1967, the Arabs were already aggressive against Israel and whatever Israel did was a reaction to that. Nasser, Asad, even Hossain from Jordan, none of the Arab countries surrounding Israel was willing to recognise it and start peaceful relations.

Which brings us to the next question:

will the Arabs recognise Israel (in whatever borders) as a Jewish State? Just like there are 57 "Islamic States"?

I am sure Israel would recognise a Palestinian State if peace is achieved.
The opposite, with Arabs recognising a Jewish State, is not something I have seen anyone say till now.

[Hindsite]

I am sure Israel would recognise a Palestinian State if peace is achieved.
The opposite, with Arabs recognising a Jewish State, is not something I have seen anyone say till now.

The Arabs, including the so-called Palestinians have said they will never recognize a Jewish state. However, they could be lying just to get a better deal with more land. But I believe, if they do reach a peace agreement, any peace agreement that requires the dividing of the land will desolve in less than ten years. And I am being generous with that. Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.

HalleluYah
Praise the Lord

[Tailz]

You are evading my question,

It was an actual question? I thought you were just making a statement out of curiosity.

...and it is an important one:
Before 1967, the Arabs were already aggressive against Israel and whatever Israel did was a reaction to that. Nasser, Asad, even Hossain from Jordan, none of the Arab countries surrounding Israel was willing to recognise it and start peaceful relations.

I totally agree, the Arab states were fanatically opposed to the creation of a state for the Jewish people. This was both religious, and xenophobic... "the Jews are not one of us Arabs" ...I think could summarize the mentality.

The real proof of the pudding is the reaction of the local Palestinians, which in the early days of Zionism was not too bad because the movement was so small with almost no impact. Even the local Jewish population had mixed thoughts about early zionism back then.

But then there was the Balfour declaration which really put the cat amongst the pigeons, the waves of Zionist immigrants, the creation of exclusive population centers and organisations, not to mention the Zionist Rallies proclaiming ownership of the whole territory that turned the local population against Zionism.

The situation was never going to be peaceful. If the same thing happened to any population group today, the same resistance and instability would occur. As I've always written, if the Canaanites showed up on the beach at Tel Aviv today, and demanded the same as the Zionists did in the early days. Do you honestly think that even the Israeli's would react peacefully and give up their homes to the new immigrants? No matter how old their connection to the land is?

So why expect the Palestinians to be such rollovers?

I agree I deplore the violence, but it was never going to be a happy situation when the immigrants show up on the doorstep demanding ethno-religious purity of sovereignty over an area that already has an established mixed population living there.

"Get out of the way, this place is going to be ours."

"Not on your nelly!"

Which brings us to the next question:

I am sure Israel would recognise a Palestinian State if peace is achieved.
The opposite, with Arabs recognising a Jewish State, is not something I have seen anyone say till now.

Now look who is dodging the point. Sure Israel would recognize a Palestinian State - if there is any land left to create a Palestinian State on - but what about recognising it as a uniquely Islamic Arab state just as Israel wants to be recognized as a uniquely Jewish state (ethnically, culturally, and religiously Jewish).

Surely this recognition thing is for both parties?

For you see, that has been Netanyahu's sticking point. He does not want the Palestinians (and Arab states) to just recognize Israel a Nation State, but as a Nation State of the Jewish People (ethnically, culturally, and religiously Jewish). Where national self determination (a phrase I took from a recent bill to change the Basic Law of Israel) is a benefit only afforded to the Jewish people of Israel, instead of all Israeli citizens. No national self determination for Israeli-Arabs, not for the Goyem.

Now we all already know where I stand on this, I'm not in favour of nationalism and nation states, so I don't have a "horse in this race" either way it turns out.

[skinster]

Really? On the side of the oppressor because I will not kowtow to your byline?

It's not my opinion, it's a fact, and a position you appeared to support years ago, but something appears to have turned you into a "liberal" ( ) zionist over the years. Israeli historians have also documented this reality, but for some reason you've adopted the postmodern idea of reality being whatever you now want it to be.

Come now Skinster, I thought you were better than this.

Same.

Contrary to the propaganda on Twitter, life is almost normal for Israeli citizens.

Yeah, so normal that during the last carpet-bombing of Gaza in 2014, Israelis in the south of Israel got themselves out in deck-chairs to view and cheer on the slaughter.

[Ter]

Yeah, so normal that during the last carpet-bombing of Gaza in 2014, Israelis in the south of Israel got themselves out in deck-chairs to view and cheer on the slaughter.

First of all, there never was "carpet bombing" on Gaza.
If there was, there wouldn't be many Arabs remaining there, now would they?
Secondly, the Israelis living near the border with Gaza had been terrorized for years with explosive rockets blindly coming their way. Hpw many times they had only seconds to run to shelters? In the middle of the night? This was payback. Also note that only a few Israelis were indulging in the show. Do not generalise.
And look, it has been very quiet on that border since 2014.

Sure Israel would recognize a Palestinian State - if there is any land left to create a Palestinian State on - but what about recognizing it as a uniquely Islamic Arab state just as Israel wants to be recognized as a uniquely Jewish state (ethnically, culturally, and religiously Jewish).
Surely this recognition thing is for both parties?

Agreed, both should recognize each other for what they are: a Jewish State and an Islamic State.
Nothing stops people from other religions/ethnicity from living in either. Look at Israel, with 20% of the population being Arabs. Why would a future State of Palestine stop Jews from living there? Who is the racist now?

[skinster]

First of all, there never was "carpet bombing" on Gaza.

Yes there was.

Israel bombed UN shelters and used white phosphorous.

Israeli soldier decided to speak out against Israel's bombing campaign on Gaza and its oppression of Palestinians in general.

[Tailz]

It's not my opinion, it's a fact, and a position you appeared to support years ago, but something appears to have turned you into a "liberal" ( ) zionist over the years. Israeli historians have also documented this reality, but for some reason you've adopted the postmodern idea of reality being whatever you now want it to be.

Le-sigh... ok... What exact position are you writing about?

I don't think my position has changed in all this time.

[skinster]

Now you suddenly can't follow the conversation.

Okay.

[Tailz]

Agreed, both should recognize each other for what they are: a Jewish State and an Islamic State.

I disagree, a nation state, a political entity should not legislate an ethnicity or religion. As doing so creates discrimination and shows the state favours one sector of citizens instead of all citizens of the state.

Would you not agree, that is a better alternative. A state for all of it's citizens, instead of a privileged class of citizen?

Nothing stops people from other religions/ethnicity from living in either.

Actually both do. The Palestinians forbid the sale of property to Jews. While Israel even treats people who have lived in the region before Israel's founding as a class of permanent resident. A class of residency normally reserved for foreign immigrants who choose to live in a state not of their origin. Thus those people, who have lived no where else and predate the state of Israel - are classed as foreigners in the state that superimposed itself over their homes.

While dare I mention the idea of population transfer that has bandied about in Israeli political circles.

Or the councils and village boards that vet the acceptance of new village members which are notorious for turning down non-Jewish applicants.

Look at Israel, with 20% of the population being Arabs. Why would a future State of Palestine stop Jews from living there?

In principle I agree, a Jew or a Palestinian should face not hurdles about living in ether state. Yet we see ether formulating their own reasons why to restrict the other.

Who is the racist now?

Both to differing degrees and over different issues.

[Tailz]

Now you suddenly can't follow the conversation.

Okay.

Yeah strange how that happens when you seem to be going on about a far wider concept. Or I could just be forgetful, which is more than likely.

My comment... You may find this difficult to understand, but I don't support ether side in this shit storm. ...in responce to @MememyselfandIJK's comment... so we don't let the Palestinians have their own country?

Seems to have triggered a reaction from you because I don't blindly support the Palestinian cause, which I don't, and never did. Nether do I blindly support the Israeli cause.

I support Palestinian resistance against an unjust occupation, yet I do not support their means when it comes to harming the innocent, or just outright racism. While on the other side of the fence I support Jewish freedom and defence, yet that support is lost when defence becomes harassment and exploitation of the occupation for territorial gain or just outright profiteering.

I've always maintained this stance. This is why I've been vilified by both sides. Yet strangely, I've also gained the understanding of both sides that I am against unjust deeds. I have never favoured nationalism, the creation of nation states. Yet I can see such as short term solutions.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Yes there was.

No there wasnt.

you dont know shit about military.

Israel dont even have planes capable of doing carpet bombing


BTW this is carpet bombing
If Israel did this there would be no Gaza left

[skinster]

Inb4 your hasbara:

You may find this difficult to understand, but I don't support ether side in this shit storm.[/color][/i] ...in responce to @MememyselfandIJK's comment... so we don't let the Palestinians have their own country?

I support Palestinian resistance against an unjust occupation, yet I do not support their means when it comes to harming the innocent, or just outright racism. While on the other side of the fence I support Jewish freedom and defence, yet that support is lost when defence becomes harassment and exploitation of the occupation for territorial gain or just outright profiteering.

This is a weird thing to read since this conflict is a clear case of settler-colonialism where Europeans, Russians and Americans settled on top of a native people 7 decades ago and since, have continued to oppress the natives by killing them with impunity almost every day if not during bombing campaigns, allowing the people no rights, put restrictions on movement, demolish their homes, deny medical treatment, imprison and torture children without charges, and the list goes on, every day. It's not a matter of Palestinians being racist towards Jews - as though Palestinians haven't lived comfortably with Jews and Christians for centuries prior to zionists invading the land - but X GROUP resisting ANYONE who comes in and lives on top of them (unless you can remind me of a time in history where settler-colonialism hasn't resulted in resistance from the natives)

And then that stuff about Israel's defence and security and "freedom" , as if it's not a nuclear state with a massive and powerful military occupying and oppressing a defenceless civilian population, as if it's not the only one out of the two who holds any real power.

Yeah, ok.