[LehmanB]

In other words, choosing to be a US vassal state is smart?

If everybody who doesn't agree with US policy is dumb, then everybody outside of Trump's inner circle, for example objecting to Jerusalem as Israel's capital, is dumb. That makes 99.999... % of all people dumb.


Remember that all ethnic minorities groups including Sunnis, Christians, Alawis, etc., lived peacefully under the Assad regime for decades until the US of bloody A decided to incite racial hatred for the purpose of regime change so that the Islamist lunatics would create hell on Earth for everybody.

Even the Vatican has opposed the US policy of regime change in Syria because they know perfectly well that the Christian community in Syria will be wiped out after nearly 2,000 years without the protection of Assad's secular regime.

I am not justifying Obama, his foreign policy wasn't a big success. But the rebels are not "foreign". All sides get foreign aid, and are local.
Remember the Sunnis also rebel in the 80th during Assad's father's time, he massacred an entire town and ended it quickly.
In fact, in many Arab countries here there was the odd situation of a minority oppressing majority: Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Lybia, Saudia.

About being smart, you have a right saying there is also smartness in following Russian/Chinese axis. But atleast few years ago it was smarter to go with the stronger superpower. Remember that being a Russian vassal is not exactly greater than being American vassal.
I do think the Saudis mannage to get what they want; of course, they have the oil, but they also make good politics. They payed alot to the BBC to make positive movies on them.. You do see western internal criticism on actions- but Saudis are never on the frame and this is amzing .. No country is arguing against their investment on extreme Muslim schools in Europe and their fund of extermist Muslims in USA academy to lead campains.. thye interfere freely in western countries and are always out of the spot.

[Atlantis]

@LehmanB, nobody is saying that you can govern a tribal country that doesn't have any democratic traditions without repression. That's what Assad does just like any other authoritarian leader in the region. That's not pretty, but that's the way it is and it is infinitely better than the chaos in the wake of US/UK interference for which we in Europe have to pay the price.

I don't think it's a choice between being a US or a Russia/Chinese vassal. A united Europe has the critical mass to be a pole of its own. Moreover, it is a far more attractive choice than either of the two choices you present.

As I said, the intelligent way of using oil revenues is the Norwegian way. The Saudi's meddling in foreign affairs is counter productive. Funding extremists mosques abroad will only produce a hostile reaction without any benefits for the Saudis whatsoever. Moreover, their apparent inability to build a civil society or an economy that is not dependent fossil fuels is a damning condemnation of a totally corrupt and useless regime. They will be bankrupt even before we have made fossil fuels redundant. I don't know about their ability as camel drivers, but they are totally inept at everything else.

[skinster]

zionists ITT calling other terrorists

[LehmanB]

@LehmanB, nobody is saying that you can govern a tribal country that doesn't have any democratic traditions without repression. That's what Assad does just like any other authoritarian leader in the region. That's not pretty, but that's the way it is and it is infinitely better than the chaos in the wake of US/UK interference for which we in Europe have to pay the price.

I don't think it's a choice between being a US or a Russia/Chinese vassal. A united Europe has the critical mass to be a pole of its own. Moreover, it is a far more attractive choice than either of the two choices you present.

As I said, the intelligent way of using oil revenues is the Norwegian way. The Saudi's meddling in foreign affairs is counter productive. Funding extremists mosques abroad will only produce a hostile reaction without any benefits for the Saudis whatsoever. Moreover, their apparent inability to build a civil society or an economy that is not dependent fossil fuels is a damning condemnation of a totally corrupt and useless regime. They will be bankrupt even before we have made fossil fuels redundant. I don't know about their ability as camel drivers, but they are totally inept at everything else.

Either way, small countries has to be vassals to somebody.

So you say Saudis are out of the spot cause they colaborate with the US. I think its also due to their sufisticated politics of toying with everyone. They do not have any oposition speaking (besides Bin Laden..) and they keep diverting UN and public speach onto others (we know who..) so they maintain their goals and been out of the debate. They also colaborate and form a league of 56 Muslims countries which also helps them to maneuver the UN and international community, and that indicates their wisdom of internal hidden politics. I give it to them .

Besides I agree that brutal dictating may be their only option. If the Syrian rebels would have won they were liekly to genocide the Alawis in return, and form again dictatorship.

And I agree that their case of winning the oil is similar to unskilled guy who win the lottery.

However, their oil is been achieved through their massive conquests of territories and respect for land (respect which my nation lacks). They are still expanding and we see it in Sub Sahara and their obsession on my state. Having resources is a by product of having quarter of the earth. So even though they do not develop or produce anything, they know to keep their mine of gold. And always something will come out from their deserts.

[Suntzu]

zionists ITT calling other terrorists

What you are saying is that Yemen is the way it has always been.

The U.S. needs to butt out of the Middle East and let them mind their own business.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

The UAE-backed southern separatists are now turning on Hadi:

Deadly clashes split ranks of Gulf allies in Yemen war

ADEN/MARIB, Yemen (Reuters) - At least 10 people were killed and more than 80 others were wounded as southern Yemeni separatists fought government troops in the southern city of Aden on Sunday, local medics said, deepening a rift between forces that had been on the same side.

The worst clashes yet between southern separatists, who are allied to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), and forces loyal to the Saudi-based government risk crippling their once united war against the Iran-aligned Houthi movement in Yemen’s north.

The fighting subsided by the evening after Prime Minister Ahmed bin Daghr ordered a truce and instructed forces loyal to the government to return to barracks, witnesses said.

Yemen has been torn apart by three years of conflict between the Saudi-backed government of President Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi and the Houthi, and the factional fighting in the south compounds the misery.

The fighting broke out after the expiry of a deadline set last week by separatists from the Southern Transitional Council (STC) for Hadi to dismiss the bin Daghr government, accusing it of corruption and mismanagement. The government denies the charges.

Gunmen were deployed throughout most districts of Aden on Sunday and there was heavy automatic gunfire and explosions in the southern port city, according to Reuters witnesses.

Armed separatists appeared to gain the upper hand by wresting a key military base in Khor Maksar district in northern Aden and several government buildings from soldiers loyal to Hadi, local newspaper Aden al-Ghad reported on its website.

Residents said that hundreds of pro-Southern demonstrators had gathered in a main square.

Hospitals said at least nine fighters and one woman were killed in the fighting. International medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres, which received four of the casualties, said 86 wounded people were brought in.

Bin Daghr had earlier denounced the separatists’ actions as a coup and said the outcome of contest in Aden was in the hands of their backers, the UAE, who enjoy overall control in the city. He said that the situation was headed toward “a comprehensive military confrontation ... (which is) a direct gift to the Houthis and Iran”.

“This is a serious matter and the coalition and Arabs as a whole must move to save the situation,” bin Daghr wrote in a message on his Facebook page. “The matter is in their hands and the hope, as we in the government see it, is on the (United Arab) Emirates.”

Although Hadi remains in exile in Saudi Arabia, his administration and local allies nominally control about four-fifths of Yemen’s territory, but political and military leaders in Aden now want to revive the former independent state of South Yemen.

A top military adviser to President Hadi, Mohammed Ali al-Miqdashi, said any move toward rebellion would render the southerners an enemy.

“There is no difference between the Houthis and anyone else who rebels against the legitimate government, no matter who they are - left, right, south, east,” said Miqdashi, speaking at a remote military base near the central Yemeni city of Marib, late on Saturday.

A senior southern political source accused the government of pushing the dispute toward an armed showdown.

“The Hadi government was nervous about any demonstration by the people, so they tried to stop it by force thinking that if there were a battle, the coalition would intervene and save them,” the source said.

In a statement late on Saturday before the clashes began, the Saudi-led coalition urged all parties to seek “calm and restraint, adhering to the language of a calm dialogue.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yeme ... SKBN1FH06M

[Zionist Nationalist]

zionists ITT calling other terrorists

so you are suggesting that the US should just drop their support for Saudi Arabia so this vacuum will be filled by some other country like China or Russia?

[Suntzu]

Yes, let's get out of the Middle East, let them sink in their own shit.

[skinster]

so you are suggesting that the US should just drop their support for Saudi Arabia so this vacuum will be filled by some other country like China or Russia?

No, I was laughing at zionists ITT calling others terrorists. I think I was pretty clear.

Here, more terrorists:

[LehmanB]

We have to remember Iran involves in this too. Before this war there was serious crisis in Yemen where extremists took over most of the state (and BTW, expelled the last few Jews from where they lived). The whole struggle is Iran VS Saudia there. So as usual, Iran fights through others who will pay the price.

[skinster]

It's always Iran, even when it's Saudi Arabia, the world's superpower and other Western powers that are destroying and starving the people of Yemen right now.

[Suntzu]

Muslim starving Muslims. Interesting, Aisha was the name of Muhammad's favorite wife, 6 years old when he married her and 9 years old when he fucked her.

[LehmanB]

Its both Saudia and Iran who are responssible, as well as the population of Yemen itself who is willingly fighting. Everyone are fucked up. this is also the lesson in Syria.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Yemen's Saudi-backed government 'to flee from Aden'

Fighters from the armed wing of a political movement demanding secession for southern Yemen have surrounded the presidential palace in the government’s de facto capital of Aden after three days of intense fighting.

The prime minister, Ahmed bin Daghr, and a number of senior government figures were reportedly holed up in the palace on Tuesday. The Southern Resistance Force (SRF) have also captured the main barracks of troops loyal to President Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi, who resides in Riyadh.

The southern port city of Aden has served as the government’s base since 2014 after the Iran-backed Houthi rebels, who hail from northern Yemen, took control of the capital, Sana’a, in their fight against the state.

At least 36 people have been killed and 185 wounded in clashes in Aden since Sunday, when another front was opened in Yemen’s devastating conflict.

“The separatists have surrounded the palace and now control the main gate. Those inside are unofficially under house arrest at this point,” a high-ranking officer with the Yemeni army told Agence France-Presse.

Activists shared photos on social media of the flag of the former independent South Yemen state flying over the army base’s gate. South Yemen was united with North Yemen in 1990.

The SRF, the armed wing of the Southern Transitional Council, has been receiving support from the United Arab Emirates, causing a fracture in the Saudi-UAE alliance that intervened against the Houthis.

In recent days, leaders in the UAE have in public been calling on the STC to accept a ceasefire, but their plea has fallen on deaf ears. Last week, the STC gave Hadi’s government an ultimatum: either dismiss Daghr and his cabinet or face being overthrown.

The STC accused Hadi’s government of “rampant corruption” resulting in a “deteriorating economic, security and social situation never before witnessed in the history of the south”.

In addition, 14 soldiers were killed on Tuesday in a suicide attack by suspected Islamist extremists in southern Yemen, a senior military official said. The bomb struck a checkpoint manned by UAE-trained special operations forces in Ataq, capital of the oil-rich province of Shabwa. Islamist networks, including al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula and Islamic State, have exploited the war to expand their presence in southern Yemen.
...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -from-aden

If the Saudis are left without an allied claimant to power in the country, does it turn from being an 'intervention' to a 'hostile war'? Or will they switch to the southern separatists, to give them an excuse to carry on bombing Iranian allies?

[Atlantis]

They also colaborate and form a league of 56 Muslims countries which also helps them to maneuver the UN and international community, and that indicates their wisdom of internal hidden politics. I give it to them .

You are still equating "wisdom" with money, which even you don't believe seriously. So, I have won on this score. :-)

And I agree that their case of winning the oil is similar to unskilled guy who win the lottery.

However, their oil is been achieved through their massive conquests of territories and respect for land

The Arab conquest had nothing to do with fossil fuel resources. And today, all those deserts aren't even enough to feed their own people. Without the oil it's a liability more than an asset. The presence of oil resources is accidental and has nothing to do with a nation's merits. On the contrary, the easy money from oil resources makes people lazy. Norway has the lowest innovation of all the Nordic countries, and the whole of the 1.6 billion Muslims of the world don't even account for 1% of the world's innovation. It's technological innovation that drives the economy, not land or demography.

[LehmanB]

The Arab conquest had nothing to do with fossil fuel resources. And today, all those deserts aren't even enough to feed their own people. Without the oil it's a liability more than an asset. The presence of oil resources is accidental and has nothing to do with a nation's merits. On the contrary, the easy money from oil resources makes people lazy. Norway has the lowest innovation of all the Nordic countries, and the whole of the 1.6 billion Muslims of the world don't even account for 1% of the world's innovation. It's technological innovation that drives the economy, not land or demography.

There are several arguments in here.
Innovation is indeed a better motivation than resources. But resources still pays a roll, especially when you have alot. I do believe resources derrives from territory. Russia and the Arab world (equal in territory) has plenty resources thanks to their land. Indeed it can make people lazy / make the regime indifferent for the people since it doesn't need progress when it is secure with resources. The Arab world, besides being lazy, have also a bad tradition of ignorance so it makes them a double effort to catch up even if they had to struggle. Since they are focused only on resources, they take care of land instead of other things; and this is partly explains their antagonism to Israel, which was supposed to fail.

And I repeat- as long as Russia/ the Arab world have so much land (17 million sqm), they will have that resource, or the other. Also Norway, by having the sea, will always make something out of it. It won't protect from faliour if the society won't progress, but they will have resources. IMO.

[Atlantis]

There are several arguments in here.
Innovation is indeed a better motivation than resources. But resources still pays a roll, especially when you have alot. I do believe resources derrives from territory. Russia and the Arab world (equal in territory) has plenty resources thanks to their land. Indeed it can make people lazy / make the regime indifferent for the people since it doesn't need progress when it is secure with resources. The Arab world, besides being lazy, have also a bad tradition of ignorance so it makes them a double effort to catch up even if they had to struggle. Since they are focused only on resources, they take care of land instead of other things; and this is partly explains their antagonism to Israel, which was supposed to fail.

And I repeat- as long as Russia/ the Arab world have so much land (17 million sqm), they will have that resource, or the other. Also Norway, by having the sea, will always make something out of it. It won't protect from faliour if the society won't progress, but they will have resources. IMO.

The bottom line is that "human resources" (technological innovation) beats natural resources in the age of the knowledge society.

The Arab world doesn't have a "tradition of ignorance." What could be more ignorant than to waste your resources on such counter-productive adventures like the Iraq invasion while the whole world is advising against it? It is hard to beat that sort of ignorance and greed shown by US society.

The Arab world had a highly sophisticated society and rich culture until technological disruption replaced Arab traders by Portuguese traders 500 years ago on the trade routes between Europe and Asia. Thus, even in those days it was technological innovation and not land that determined a nation's power and prosperity.

The abundant presence of natural resources has the effect of suppressing other sectors of the economy and of making a society corrupt. That's why economies based on natural resources will always lose out to societies based on human resources. If the price of you commodity drops, you can't do anything but tighten the belt, while the economy living off the ingenuity of its people will invent technological processes to use alternative resources.

For example, when Germany was cut off from resources by the allies during WWII, German scientists invented the Bosch/Haber process for producing nitrogen fertilizers, making the import of fertilizers unnecessary. Today, we are replacing fossil fuels by renewable energy. Where does that leave countries like Venezuela that depend on fossil fuel exports?

Wars like the Iraq invasion that aimed to get control over the fossil fuel reserves of the Gulf region have been very costly and ended in total failure. The US after its huge investments and after millions of dead and war refugees is losing control to Iran and Russia.

[Albert]

I have to say this is one barbaric war. A country that holds Mecca, yet acts so barbaric. It is not befitting. Saudis are shooting themselves in the foot with this war, regardless of the outcome of this war, followers of Islam have most likely been discouraged by such acts the Saudis are committing in Yemen.

[Suntzu]

I wish we could get the Saudis to shoot themselves in the ass. I thought about being concerned about what happens to Yemen then I thought about the USS Cole and said, "Nah!"

[Albert]

At this point you should be concerned about the House of Sauds, once they are gone where the cheap oil is going to come from? Russia or Valenzuela?