[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu what are you saying? The US should have never left Afghanistan? They should have stayed?

No, it's better that the U.S. empire *de-imperialize*, if only a little.

The withdrawal was done without any 'transition', though, so it was *rushed*, without any concern for Afghanistan *civil society*:

Impact on civilians

The Taliban's advances alerted many Kabul residents. Some locals, especially women, were fearful for the restoration of Taliban rule and reported feeling betrayed and abandoned by the Ghani government and NATO allies; a minority of residents celebrated the Taliban advance.[45][68][69][70] Zarifa Ghafari, the former mayor of Maidan Shar who was working with the defence ministry in Kabul, told media that "There is no one to help me or my family. I'm just sitting with them and my husband. And they will come for people like me and kill me. I can't leave my family. And anyway, where would I go?"[71]

It was reported that sales of burqas (known as chadaree in Afghanistan) climbed in the days leading to the Taliban's arrival, with the price of one increasing from ؋200 to as much as ؋3,000 (approximately US$2.50 to $37.25), in fear that the Taliban would re-impose it as mandatory on women and would target women who refused.[72] One Kabul woman told The Guardian that female students had been evacuated from their university dormitories before the Taliban could reach them and that university-educated women across the city were hiding their diplomas.[73] Khalida Popal, former captain of the Afghanistan women's national football team, advised the women's national team players to burn their uniforms to avoid reprisals.[74] Shops in the city were noted to have begun painting over and removing advertisements featuring women, and public posters featuring women were vandalized.[75][76] Residents reported a large increase in food prices.[45] It was reported that a significant number of vendors in Kabul were attempting to liquidate their stocks in hopes of raising enough money to escape the country.[77]

Concerns were quickly raised about the thousands of refugees who had fled Taliban advances elsewhere in the country and now found themselves stuck in Kabul.[78] In the evening, the National Museum of Afghanistan posted a statement on Facebook stating "huge concern about safety of Museum's Artifacts and goods for Museum Employees".[79][80] World Health Organization mobile health teams in the city were placed on hold because of safety concerns, and the delivery of medical supplies via the airport was significantly impacted.[81]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Kabul_(2021)#Impact_on_civilians

And now:

Western nations have suspended most humanitarian aid to Afghanistan following the Taliban's takeover of the country in August 2021 and the World Bank and International Monetary Fund also halted payments.[234][235] In October 2021, more than half of Afghanistan's 39 million people faced an acute food shortage.[236] On 11 November 2021, the Human Rights Watch reported that Afghanistan was facing widespread famine due to an economic and banking crisis.[237]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#21st_century

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The US should have never left Afghanistan? They should have stayed?

They obviously shouldn't have stayed, but they'll have to return after they've dealt with the rest of the world. No one can remain intact from the ultimate betterment of the world!

Of course, but @ckaihatsu seems to have a problem with the fact that it's a good thing the US left.

Afghanistan is a hard nut to crack for leftists. On the one hand US imperialism is bad by definition, on the other hand women should go to university everywhere.

I'm not just *any* leftist, though -- I'll *take* government intervention, as from the U.S., if it happens to actually be *beneficial*, but that's rare, and the U.S. didn't do anything to help the *people*, particularly women, of Afghanistan.


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Erm... actually I side with him this time.
"US leaving the place" already results in CCP is coming in and reap the profit at the expense of everyday Afghans.

Theoretically it would have been better if the US could strike some kind of cooperative relationship with the Taliban (ideal case is what South Korea or Japan is now), although I admit that the Taliban is keen to turn to CCP at its first opportunity, and to "solve" the problem I have something much more sinister in mind than ckaihatsu.

Solve *what* problem?

This *isn't* some fanciful, early 20th century 'Great Power' kind of drama and international friction -- note that the U.S. empire *left*, *abandoned* the country, and now a different entity, closer to it, is expressing interest.

You *do* have a Cold-War kind of mentality regarding the U.S. and China, don't you -- !

There's also the issue of ISIS factional control *around* the periphery of Kabul, but the Taliban says that it has that kind of thing under control.

[ckaihatsu]

It would be nice if understanding the historical causes of a problem always led to a good solution.

Unfortunately for Afghan women, this is not the case this time. The most this does for us is allow us to speculate what might have been had the USSR and the USA left Afghanistan alone.

My ideal solution (democratic transition to socialism) is unrealistic due to the existing context of an authoritarian government opposed to Marxism.

At this point, the best that the West can do is to accept as many smart Afghani female refugees as possible. They can have educated and progressive families in the west and go back to Afghanistan in a sort of liberal demographic invasion.

Remember what the intervention of the USSR was *for*, though -- like WWI, the sudden battleground of Afghanistan in the late '70s-'80s wasn't *random*. There were existing situations in both cases:

The Saur Revolution or Sowr Revolution (Pashto: د ثور انقلاب; Dari: إنقلاب ثور or ۷ ثور, lit. '7th Saur'),[3] also known as the April Revolution[4] or the April Coup,[3] was staged on 27–28 April 1978 by the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) and overthrew Afghan president Mohammed Daoud Khan, who had himself taken power in the 1973 Afghan coup d'état and established an autocratic one-party system in the country. Khan and most of his family were killed at the presidential palace in Kabul by PDPA-affiliated military officers, after which his supporters were purged and killed.[5] The revolution resulted in the creation of a socialist Afghan government that was aligned with the Soviet Union, with Nur Muhammad Taraki serving as the PDPA's General Secretary of the Revolutionary Council. Saur or Sowr is the Dari-language name for the second month of the Solar Hijri calendar, during which the uprising took place.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saur_Revolution

[Godstud]

@ckaihatsu There was a transition when the US left. They'd been planning it for a year, even during the Trump administration. There was never going to be a good time, or way, to leave, however. They'd brought over military equipment and such for 20 years.

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu There was a transition when the US left. They'd been planning it for a year, even during the Trump administration. There was never going to be a good time, or way, to leave, however. They'd brought over military equipment and such for 20 years.

You're only addressing the *military* aspect, though -- was there any planning regarding 'civilians' / civil society, to foresee how *gender roles* would be affected, etc. -- ?

[Godstud]

No, @ckaihatsu, I am sure there wasn't. There's no money in that.

[ckaihatsu]

No, @ckaihatsu, I am sure there wasn't. There's no money in that.

Okay, thanks.

[Igor Antunov]

They should allow them to do STEM at uni. Social science should by default be banned for men too.

[Unthinking Majority]

It would be nice if understanding the historical causes of a problem always led to a good solution.

Unfortunately for Afghan women, this is not the case this time. The most this does for us is allow us to speculate what might have been had the USSR and the USA left Afghanistan alone.

My ideal solution (democratic transition to socialism) is unrealistic due to the existing context of an authoritarian government opposed to Marxism.

At this point, the best that the West can do is to accept as many smart Afghani female refugees as possible. They can have educated and progressive families in the west and go back to Afghanistan in a sort of liberal demographic invasion.

The cause is that religious fundamentalists are crazy people filled with crazy ideas, most especially Muslim fundamentalists. In fundamentalist Islam the men are taught to be extremely controlling and repressive of women. They have no human freedom and almost no rights. The USSR and NATO have done their share of harm but fundamentalism in the region starts well before. That's on them, they are responsible for their actions and beliefs and how they treat women. Saudi Arabia contains similar beliefs, though not as extreme.

I don't think Afghan women who leave will ever go back, and I don't blame them. If this is the society Afghan men want for the women in society unfortunately there's no much the West can do that isn't imperialism.

Marxism will not change their religious beliefs. Economically they are just screwed, a landlocked country without many resources plus torn by war.

[ckaihatsu]

Saudi Arabia contains similar beliefs, though not as extreme.

On 2 October 2018, Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi dissident, journalist, columnist for The Washington Post, former editor of Al-Watan and former general manager and editor-in-chief of the Al-Arab News Channel, was assassinated by agents of the Saudi government at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey.[4][5] Lured to the consulate building on the pretext of providing him papers for his upcoming wedding, Khashoggi was ambushed, suffocated, and dismembered[6][7] by a 15-member squad of Saudi assassins.[7] Khashoggi's final moments are captured in audio recordings, transcripts of which were subsequently made public.[6][8] The Turkish investigation concluded that Khashoggi had been strangled as soon as he entered the consulate building, and that his body was dismembered and disposed of.[9] Turkish investigators, as well as investigations by The New York Times, concluded that some of the 15 members of the Saudi hit team were closely connected to Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, and that the team had traveled to Istanbul specifically to commit the murder.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... _Khashoggi

[Rich]

It was a terrible tragedy that Estonia became part of the Soviet Union in 1940. It was a terrible tragedy that Afghanistan didn't.

For the sake of the world in 1979, we couldn't risk leaving the Soviets unmolested in occupation of Afghanistan, a mere 300 miles from the Straits of Hormuz, with Iran in revolutionary Islamic turmoil. But for the people of the region it would have been far better if Afghanistan and the Pakistani tribal areas had been incorporated into the Soviet Union at its formation at the beginning of the 1920s.

[Puffer Fish]

Latest update:
The Taliban has ordered that women have to wear the burqa and cover their faces again.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 022-05-07/
May 7, 2022

Surprise, surprise.

[Mike12]

[Godstud]

@Mike12 Are you a bot??? You sure post like one.

[Mike12]

Aw, now that one was funny. I like the thread anyway. Here's to Godstud.

[Negotiator]

Well yes, the reason why Afghanistan is run by religious fanatics is because thats the kind of people the USA will always support.

I hope Afghanistan will manage to get a more decent government at some time. Many muslim countries allow women full access to education, and why wouldnt they. But I doubt they want more outside "help" for doing so.