[annatar1914]

What strikes me as interesting about this, is that this basically means that Bin Salman is willing to play the geopolitical game in a sort of "big kids tables" way, if that makes sense. That is, for better or worse, he engages with the rest of the world not on ideological terms, but in terms of maneuvering in a way that prioritizes power and money for himself (or his faction at the table). This is how the other powers do it as well. The surface level ideological/religious/human arguments/maneuvering are basically used for propaganda basically. Those types of factors are to be managed and besides the point. This is how the game is played by Western powers and China for example. I don't count Russia in that lot, as it seems Putin has bought into his own propaganda. He went from selling crack to smoking it so to speak. Hence the general agreement that geopolitically speaking, no matter how much land he hangs on too, he lost. Anyway, that's for another thread.

I guess what I'm saying is, the Saudi's are playing the game better than Putin.

Does this assessment of mine make sense? All of that said, maybe I'm not understanding this fully.

@Rancid ,

You might be interested in this gentleman and his commentary on MBS:

[Rancid]

I mean for you it might be a good thing

I wasn't saying it is good for me, or that I endorse it.

I'm pointing out my (belated) realization that the way in which Saudi Arabia is engaging with other powers is now (mostly or work towards being) on the same language of negotiation (i.e. power). It opens the door for more wheeling and dealing between powers when they are on the same page like this.

Again, for better or worse. Not saying it's good or that I support it.

[JohnRawls]

Anyways, EU and countries will cut most if not all aid to Palestine now. Which is probably 2billion plus per year.

[wat0n]

Anyways, EU and countries will cut most if not all aid to Palestine now. Which is probably 2billion plus per year.

Is this only Gaza or the West Bank too?

Also lol at @skinster getting wet over the massacre of Jews. Unsurprising, but shows her true colors.

[Potemkin]

I wasn't saying it is good for me, or that I endorse it.

I'm pointing out my (belated) realization that the way in which Saudi Arabia is engaging with other powers is now (mostly or work towards being) on the same language of negotiation (i.e. power). It opens the door for more wheeling and dealing between powers when they are on the same page like this.

Again, for better or worse. Not saying it's good or that I support it.

It’s called ‘Realpolitik’, @Rancid. It was invented by Niccolo Machiavelli back in the early 16th century, but only became popular following the Treaty of Westphalia in the mid-17th century.

[Saeko]

George Takei had this to say:

https://x.com/GeorgeTakei/status/171104 ... 95845?s=20

When I was a little boy, the Japanese military attacked Pearl Harbor. It was a surprise attack, and thousands of U.S. servicemembers perished. As a nation, we were stunned. And we vowed to strike back. Revenge was understandably on everyone’s mind, including many Americans of Japanese descent who opposed the emperor and were peaceful and law-abiding U.S. citizens and residents.

In its zeal to exact that revenge, however, the U.S. government overreacted, out of fear and bigotry. They targeted everyone who happened to look like the people who had carried out the attack. Those of us who had done nothing wrong were forced to pay the consequences for the decisions of others far away and disconnected from us. We were interned for years, in open-air prisons, while America went off to fight Japan, Germany and Italy.

It’s so important that we carry the lessons of the past through to today. Merely because one group commits atrocities and acts with depravity does not mean vast hundreds of thousands or even millions of others should be lumped together with them and made to suffer. We must never paint with the brush of justice and retaliation too broadly, or the toll of human suffering will rise immeasurably.

(My apologies for the source)

[JohnRawls]

Is this only Gaza or the West Bank too?

Also lol at @skinster getting wet over the massacre of Jews. Unsurprising, but shows her true colors.

No clue. West Bank as I understand is mostly but not all controlled by FATAH and on paper they are secular, for negotiations and more peaceful than Gazas HAMAS.

[JohnRawls]

Sorry for double post but one idea just hit me:

What clown world do we live in when the leftists basically support an extreme religious organisation of the most vile and conservative type. At least I get the extreme rightists when they jerk of to the IRA because GUNs and RELIGION but left supporting Hamas? We live in a weird timeline. I mean any old school communist or socialist(Cold war) would consider Hamas prime Gulag material even if they were fighting the US. Which is basically what happened during the Cold War. A lot of regimes in the middle east just couldn't get any support from the USSR and USA because they were too weird even for USA/USSR proxy war standards.

[annatar1914]

Sorry for double post but one idea just hit me:

What clown world do we live in when the leftists basically support an extreme religious organisation of the most vile and conservative type. At least I get the extreme rightists when they jerk of to the IRA because GUNs and RELIGION but left supporting Hamas? We live in a weird timeline. I mean any old school communist or socialist(Cold war) would consider Hamas prime Gulag material even if they were fighting the US. Which is basically what happened during the Cold War. A lot of regimes in the middle east just couldn't get any support from the USSR and USA because they were too weird even for USA/USSR proxy war standards.

And it's precisely this attitude which makes Socialism impossible because it makes Anti Imperialism impossible.

You don't have to like your allies, but to hate them to the point of preferring the victory of the enemy is not only wrong but stupid.

Or treacherous, like one isn't really a leftist.

[Rancid]

And it's precisely this attitude which makes Socialism impossible because it makes Anti Imperialism impossible.

Socialism makes anti-imperialism impossible. I understand how many so called leftist support imperialism (we see it here and in the Ukraine thread), however I don't see any inherent trait within Socialism itself that preclude anti-imperialism...?

[annatar1914]

Socialism makes anti-imperialism impossible. I understand how many so called leftist support imperialism (we see it here and in the Ukraine thread), however I don't see any inherent trait within Socialism itself that preclude anti-imperialism...? :?:

@Rancid :

Fair question Rancid: one assumes that altruism would require antiimperialism because having freedom how could one not fight for others to be free also?

And the other consideration is a utilitarian one: how could a socialist state survive in a capitalist world unless socialists worked to overthrow capitalism everywhere?

But, I'll be honest, Socialism is just part of my worldview, I have (I hope) a broader and also more nuanced vision.

[Potemkin]

@Rancid :

Fair question Rancid: one assumes that altruism would require antiimperialism because having freedom how could one not fight for others to be free also?

Indeed. And this has always been the avowed position of all socialist regimes, from the Soviet Union onwards. Even when they were building their own empires, they at least had to pretend that they weren’t. The Warsaw Pact was a “fraternal union of brother nations” instead of a buffer zone against invasion from the West, which is what it actually was. Because socialist (and communist) ideology is clear and unequivocal on this point: “imperialism is bad, mm’kay?”

And the other consideration is a utilitarian one: how could a socialist state survive in a capitalist world unless socialists worked to overthrow capitalism everywhere?

It could not, if only for the simple reason that the capitalist nations would try to strangle it in its cradle, as they did to the Soviet Union, to China, to Vietnam, to Venezuela, and so on and so forth. The West even fought a four decade long Cold War to bring down the Soviet Union, which eventually succeeded. The working class must never be allowed to believe that there is a viable alternative to capitalism.

But, I'll be honest, Socialism is just part of my worldview, I have (I hope) a broader and also more nuanced vision.

There’s ‘nuanced’ and then there’s ‘equivocal’, @annatar1914.

[annatar1914]

Indeed. And this has always been the avowed position of all socialist regimes, from the Soviet Union onwards. Even when they were building their own empires, they at least had to pretend that they weren’t. The Warsaw Pact was a “fraternal union of brother nations” instead of a buffer zone against invasion from the West, which is what it actually was. Because socialist (and communist) ideology is clear and unequivocal on this point: “imperialism is bad, mm’kay?”


It could not, if only for the simple reason that the capitalist nations would try to strangle it in its cradle, as they did to the Soviet Union, to China, to Vietnam, to Venezuela, and so on and so forth. The West even fought a four decade long Cold War to bring down the Soviet Union, which eventually succeeded. The working class must never be allowed to believe that there is a viable alternative to capitalism.


There’s ‘nuanced’ and then there’s ‘equivocal’, @annatar1914.

@Potemkin :

Well, my friend, very good and true, such that I think a clarification right here and now on my part seems necessary so there's no doubt or ambiguity.

I necessarily use the modern term to call myself an Socialist. This I am because it's the natural consequence of my reflection upon "Sobornost" and my battles in this life against " Poshlost".

I didn't come to Socialism/anti Imperialism via Marx or Lenin, but Orthodox Christian Sobornost. Love.

[skinster]

Now We Have Your Attention
There have been decades of photos of dead Palestinian women and children, and kids being beaten, humilated and imprisoned by Israeli soldiers. The historic killing rate in this “conflict” has been fairly consistent at about 40:1.

None of this ever caused more than a raised eyebrow and a mild tut-tut from the western “liberal” Establishment. I can’t recall camera crews ever pursuing any zionist politicians down the street demanding that they use the word “condemn” of the latest Israeli atrocity.

The paroxysm of hatred in the political and media class, unleashed by a single day of the boot being on the other foot is instructive. It is particularly instructive in their near complete unanimity – what percentage of the discussion on broadcast TV or radio have you heard this last 48 hours given over to Palestinian or pro-Palestinian voices?

Yet it is very plain from social media that the public is by no means as unanimous in their support of Israel as are the political and media class.

But then the public are not bought and paid for.

Asymmetric warfare tends to be vile. Oppressed and colonised peoples don’t have the luxury of lining up soldiers in neatly pressed uniforms and polished boots, to face off against the opposing army in an equality of arms.

A colonised and oppressed people tends, given the chance, to mirror the atrocities perpetrated on them by their oppressor.

This of course feeds in, always, to the propaganda of the Imperialist. A paroxysm of resistance by the oppressed always ends up portrayed by the Imperialist as evidence of the bestiality of the colonised people and in itself justifying the “civilising mission” of the coloniser.

Thus the “Indian Mutiny” became a Victorian tale of rape and murder of British women and of the Black Hole of Calcutta. Thus the Mau Mau were evil butchers, and the IRA were terrorists, which is the modern term of art for those resisting evil and foreign rule.

The Israeli Ambassador to the UN yesterday described the Hamas fighters as “animal like”. This of course is not true. They are people, but people who have been crazed by unbearable levels of injustice and oppression.

I am extremely sorry for all those who die, as in all wars. I am sorry even for the deaths of individual Israeli soldiers, and more so for all the innocents who died and are now dying.

But I will not condemn Hamas.

For this I do not even need to delve into the backstory of Hamas’ initial sponsoring by Israel to split Fatah. They have grown well past that. I do not condemn Hamas because the resistance of the Palestinian people is a reflex response to their slow genocide.

Yes it is an inchoate and violent response. Of course I wish it did not have innocent victims.

The people I do condemn are the political class internationally who, with one voice, put out statements supporting “Israel’s right to self-defence”. A right they grant to the oppressor but deny to the oppressed.

Those are the people who need to be condemned.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... attention/

Many around the world continue to stand for Palestine:

What clown world do we live in when the leftists basically support an extreme religious organisation of the most vile and conservative type. At least I get the extreme rightists when they jerk of to the IRA because GUNs and RELIGION but left supporting Hamas? We live in a weird timeline. I mean any old school communist or socialist(Cold war) would consider Hamas prime Gulag material even if they were fighting the US. Which is basically what happened during the Cold War. A lot of regimes in the middle east just couldn't get any support from the USSR and USA because they were too weird even for USA/USSR proxy war standards.

Just because morons like you who are clearly brainwashed, or just, that racist to believe that the resistance in Palestine consists only of Hamas, is neither here or there. This thread itself began with the point of all resistance factions in Palestine joining forces, putting differences aside, to resist their decades-long oppresser...and naming themselves The Lion's Den. These factions include the Marxist-Leninist PFLP.

The news is all HAMAS HAMAS HAMAS because it might make sympathy for moronic Westerners more difficult to deny if the people resisting were simply called Palestinians. But those who've been paying attention to the ongoing genocide of Palestinians that began in the 1940s understand it is not just Hamas. In fact, Hamas was spawned by the Israelis who preferred a religious org to counter the PLO, they've only been around for about 30 years while the genocide, ethnic-cleansing and brutal military occupation of Palestine has been around for much longer than Hamas.

Socialism makes anti-imperialism impossible.

Carrots wear pink die.

It seems we can all make nonsensical sentences up.

No clue. West Bank as I understand is mostly but not all controlled by FATAH and on paper they are secular, for negotiations and more peaceful than Gazas HAMAS.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem, which were what were meant to be Palestinian land, have been suffering a military occupation for over 5 decades, so it is Israel that controls all where Palestinians live, the Zionist boot has been on the Palestinian neck since European terrorist militias stole the country.

The Palestinian Authority is the face of the leadership in charge of the West Bank, but it is basically a sub-contractor for the Israeli government and military and lives under its dictates.

Gaza is a concentration camp of 2.3 million people that is controlled by Israel and blockaded from the world. Even that twat David Cameron referred to it honestly as "an open air prison". What we saw this weekend was a prisoner break-out.

And what did the Israelis expect after holding millions as prisoners for 16 years? A million children live amongst them.

And now the Zionists are doing what they've done a handful of times, carpet bombing the prison.

George Takei had this to say:

This guy thinks men can be women so his position on anything can be binned.

Also lol at @skinster getting wet over the massacre of Jews. Unsurprising, but shows her true colors.

Why do you keep calling them Jews when lots of Jews are with me in their defence of Palestinians and Palestine? Stop with your racism. I mean, I know you can't help that anyway since you support the ethnosupremacist state of Israel, but maybe try to be less obvious about it, if we're talking about "true colours".

Here's some of those Jews who defend Palestine's right to self-determination covering the prisoners' revolt:

As for my "true colours", I've made no secret about being in full support of the Palestinian people to live in freedom and dignity and away from the boot of the racist European settler-colony which has refused Palestinians peace since they stole their country.

Kudos for you trying the whole "yer racist!" thing though that Zionists still amusingly try. Gotta give you points for your effort but you should know that that type of shite; accusing people like me as racists when you yourself are precisely that for supporting the apartheid colony just doesn't work. Do better!

This idea that Israel could continue to get away with its almost century-long and daily violence, murder with impunity, ongoing ethnic cleansing and lands and homes theft, was just, wishful thinking. People will resist sooner or later, I know I would if I was there and I bet you and everyone else who isn't a cuck would do the same if your lives were destroyed by Zionists the way Palestinians have been, with no end in sight. What we saw this weekend is unprecedented insofar as how Palestinians have resisted and it is one for the history books; they have decided that if they're going to die anyway, they might be able to get to pick how that happens.

Anyway...it looks like it might move towards a wider war if Hezbollah and Turkey get involved. The Iraqis and Yemenis have been talking about joining the fight too.. Saudis have (correctly) blamed the Israelis for what's happening. The only state in the region that has shown some support for the Zionist entity is the UAE, but otherwise, the Zionists are very lonely in the region.

[wat0n]

@skinster Jews are not with you in supporting the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. You can tell yourself that if you want yet it's not true.

Pretty sure these your DSA buddies in NYC



At least now you and your ilk are finally showing your true colors.

[annatar1914]

@skinster Jews are not with you in supporting the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. You can tell yourself that if you want yet it's not true.

Pretty sure these your DSA buddies in NYC



At least now you and your ilk are finally showing your true colors.

@wat0n :

Whoa, that's a rather swarthy neo Nazi I'd say. Would a liberal mired in identity politics just shut down at this point?

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

Whoa, that's a rather swarthy neo Nazi I'd say. Would a liberal mired in identity politics just shut down at this point?

Don't ask me how they think, but Nazism had its fair share of followers in the Arab world even at the time.

[skinster]

@skinster Jews are not with you in supporting the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. You can tell yourself that if you want yet it's not true.

Ah, the weak sauce because you can't defend apartheid..

I just showed you a couple of Jews who are with Palestine. Here's more, they're very easy to find:


















etc.

Pretty sure these your DSA buddies in NYC

DSA suck.

At least now you and your ilk are finally showing your true colors.

As I said, I've never hidden my position on Palestine. Check out my signature!

You're here going "that's racist! that's racist!" because that's all you have because you can't actually defend Israeli apartheid and ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people. These are your true colours which you're trying to distract away from, by calling me a racist, while defending a racist state.

Poorly, I might add.

[wat0n]

@skinster you'd never been honest about getting wet over raping and massacring Jews.

This is all clear now.

Also, I don't give a shit about what frauds like Gideon Levy or Miko Peled think.

[skinster]

@skinster you've never been honest about getting wet over raping and massacring Jews.

Making complete shit up and repeating it over again doesn't make it true.

This is all clear now.

No, what's clear is that you have no argument besides calling me a racist, despite here displaying yourself to be an apartheid fanboy.

Also, I don't give a shit about what frauds like Gideon Levy or Miko Peled think.

These Israelis who have lived in Palestine most of their lives have a much clearer position on what Israel is and report on it correctly. Miko Peled's dad was an Israeli General of the 1967 war and Miko's niece was killed in a suicide-bombing in Jerusalem many years ago. Having such experiences and still defending Palestine shows that they are for truth, no matter what. While Zionist scum have nothing but propaganda, and hardly even that these days, if we're to go by your posts.