[trainspotter9]

Israel wants the Palestinians to become more radical and commit more terrorism.

The Israeli government pays right wing Jews, mostly from South America and the U.S., to move into colonies in the occupied territories. These Jews get several times more water than the native Palestinians, and if there are any olive trees or buildings belonging to Palestinians around the Jewish colonies, the Israeli army destroys them (for security purposes and with no court order- if the Palestinians try to stop this, the Israelis shoot them).

So the question for Israel is, how do we justify this continued occupation, colonization, and discrimination against the native Palestinians? The answer, encourage them to become radical and use terrorism, and use security as a pretense to take more Palestinian land, and more importantly water.

This was Israel's latest move to radicalize the Palestinians, killing Hamas' wheelchair bound spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin:



A hundered thousand Palestinians flooded the streets after Israel killed this man with rockets from a U.S. made Apache helicopter.

The expected reprisals from the Palestinians will give Israel an excuse to continue their colonization for several more years.

[trainspotter9]

BTW, Israel encouraged Hamas' formation in the 1980's. Israel saw a fundamentalist Islamic Palestinian population as advantageous to its purposes.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

***

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

***

Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: "To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists."

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous hard-liners," the official said.

In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.

But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

"Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said.

[Boondock Saint]

Moved to the middile east forum.

Todays News is for News ... not opinion pieces.

[Furious Angel]

Do you think I want a restaurant to blow up near my house as it did? Do you think that we want to be afraid to get inside a bus?! Just tell me...

Stop doing a generalizations baised on facts that you have only read about... It may help.

[rip-soldier]

Do you think I want a restaurant to blow up near my house as it did? Do you think that we want to be afraid to get inside a bus?! Just tell me...

Stop doing a generalizations baised on facts that you have only read about... It may help.

no you don't want that..

But Sharon does, by killing Yassin EVERYBODY on this planet knows that their will be a bunch of attacks in your country by Hamas and other organisations, so Sharon put you and all other Israeli citizens in danger by doing so..
And Hamas will only grow because of this attack, you know it!! and if you don't, please open your eyes.

[trainspotter9]

^ The polls showed that 90 percent of Spain didn't want to be at war in Iraq, yet they were on track to reelect the government that brought them into the war, that is until the terrorist attack, when they decided to vote in the government that would take them out of the war.

So I don't believe people are really honest about what they want. They say one thing in polls, yet vote in the governments that keeps them as the bully.

[Furious Angel]

^ The polls showed that 90 percent of Spain didn't want to be at war in Iraq, yet they were on track to reelect the government that brought them into the war, that is until the terrorist attack, when they decided to vote in the government that would take them out of the war.

So I don't believe people are really honest about what they want. They say one thing in polls, yet vote in the governments that keeps them as the bully.

If someone do what he blieves in- it doesn't mean that he want's terror, it means that he won't let terror to make him do something that he doesn't want. I don't think that it is right that a citizen of spain, for example, should be afraid that if he'll vote for a decision against the Arab countries-he or his family would be killed in a terract. We should not let terror win, terror is never a legitimate method! And, if some country chose to do some political line- doesn't mean that it want's terror. And it doesn't matter if it's Israel of Spain.

[trainspotter9]

I'm pointing out that Spain was going to reelect the government that was taking it into the war it didn't want (polls showed that 90% of Spanish people were against the war in Iraq. My point is that polls lie because people lie.

Israelis may say that they don't want to oppress the Palestinians in an apartheid system but their voting record says differently.

[Furious Angel]

I'm pointing out that Spain was going to reelect the government that was taking it into the war it didn't want (polls showed that 90% of Spanish people were against the war in Iraq. My point is that polls lie because people lie.

Israelis may say that they don't want to oppress the Palestinians in an apartheid system but their voting record says differently.

If you'll look at the polls from the time before the begining of 2nd Intifada and after- you'll see that the Israeli voises became more and more rightist.

I think that if in Spain was also an Intifada as in Israel- the polls could be almost the same.

[trainspotter9]

^ Spain wouldn't send Spaniards from all over the world into land its occupying and give these colonists several times more water than the natives of the land. Spain would not do something that fukkin evil in the 21st century.

What Israel is doing is disgusting and in the future, U.S.'s sponsorship of Israel's racism will be seen as its greatest historical shame of the 20th and 21st century.

[CCJ]

Israel wants the Palestinians to become more radical and commit more terrorism.

This is a completely idiotic proposition

The Israeli government pays right wing Jews, mostly from South America and the U.S., to move into colonies in the occupied territories.

Where the HELL do you get this stuff? It sounds like you make it up as you go along.

So the question for Israel is, how do we justify this continued occupation, colonization, and discrimination against the native Palestinians? The answer, encourage them to become radical and use terrorism, and use security as a pretense to take more Palestinian land, and more importantly water.

EDIT: I'm not even going to justify this with a response

This was Israel's latest move to radicalize the Palestinians, killing Hamas' wheelchair bound spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin

He is the head of a goddam terrorist organization, what do you expect? Israel to sit there and just let him tell people to go kill more Israelis?!

A hundered thousand Palestinians flooded the streets after Israel killed this man with rockets from a U.S. made Apache helicopter.

The Palestinians flooded the streets because they were brainwashed from childhood to respect and love him no matter what. Just like many Israelis are brainwashed.

The expected reprisals from the Palestinians will give Israel an excuse to continue their colonization for several more years.

Another completely empty and idiotic idea here.

[trainspotter9]

Communo-Anarchist,

trainspotter9 wrote:
Israel wants the Palestinians to become more radical and commit more terrorism.


This is a completely idiotic proposition

no it isn't. You're the idiot for not understanding this.

Quote:
The Israeli government pays right wing Jews, mostly from South America and the U.S., to move into colonies in the occupied territories.

Where the HELL do you get this stuff? It sounds like you make it up as you go along.

Here, read all about it. Besides tax deductions, benefits, and subsidies, the government also gives GRANTS:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:AE6SRWSkPYgJ:www.btselem.org/Download/Land_Grab_Eng.doc+%22encouraging+settlement%22+Sharon&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

One of the main tools used to channel resources to the residents of the settlements is the definition of most of the settlements in the West Bank as “development areas” (according to the term applying through 1992) or as “national priority areas.” This definition has been applied not only to settlements (in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip), but also to various communities inside Israel, particularly in the Galilee and the Negev. The current map of national priority areas and the relevant incentives and benefits were established in 1998 by a committee of directors-general headed by the then director-general of the Prime Minister’s Office, Avigdor Lieberman, and was approved by the government headed by Binyamin Netanyahu.197 This map, which replaced the previous map, which was established in 1992 under the government of Yitzhak Rabin,198 continued to apply under the government of Ehud Barak (1999-2001) and under the present government headed by Ariel Sharon.


The purpose of the map of national priority areas, as defined by the committee of directors-general from 1998, is “to encourage the generation remaining in these areas, to encourage initial settling by new immigrants, and to encourage the migration of veterans to the priority areas.” According to the committee, “the map of national priority areas is based principally on geographical criteria,” assuming that “the scope of opportunities of citizens residing in the peripheral areas is in many respects limited by comparison to that in the center.” 199


While the geographical consideration might explain the inclusion in the priority map of the Negev and Galilee areas, it cannot explain the inclusion of the most of the settlements in the West Bank, which are adjacent or relatively close to Jerusalem and the cities of the Tel-Aviv metropolitan area, where many of the residents of the settlements are employed (with the possible exception of the Jordan Valley settlements).200 Accordingly, it would seem that the factor determining the inclusion of most of the settlements on the map is not the “limited opportunities” available to the settlers due to the distance from the center of Israel, but rather the desire to encourage Israeli citizens to move to the West Bank for political reasons. The committee was certainly right to emphasize that the map of national priority areas is based “principally” − i.e., not only − on geographical considerations.


The benefits and incentives provided for the priority areas are granted by six government ministries; Housing and Construction; National Infrastructure (through the Israel Lands Administration); Education; Trade and Industry; Labor and Social Affairs; and Finance (through income tax).201 The level of incentives varies according to the classification of each settlement as a Class A or B priority area. This classification is given separately for each benefit, so some settlements are simultaneously categorized as Class A, Class B, or no priority, depending on the government ministry and the benefit involved.


The Ministry of Housing and Construction provides generous assistance for those who purchase a new apartment or build their own home in national priority areas. In areas defined as Class A priority areas, the ministry provides a loan of NIS 60,000, half of which is converted into a grant after fifteen years. In Class B priority areas, the loan is NIS 50,000, of which NIS 20,000 is converted into a grant after the same period of time. It should be noted that to the rules established by the committee of directors-general state that the grant component is not supposed to be provided in affluent, established communities202 included in the map; however, this component is provided in all the settlements in the West Bank, including those that are affluent. The ministry also contributes to development costs by means of a grant covering up to fifty percent of expenses, according to the classification of the community and the type of expense. It is important to note that these benefits are provided in addition to the “eligibility loans” provided by the ministry throughout Israel on the basis of personal criteria.


The Israel Lands Administration, which is accountable to the Ministry of National Infrastructure, provides discounts of sixty-nine percent and forty-nine percent (for Class A and B priority areas, respectively) from the value of the land in the payment of lease fees for residential construction, and a discount of sixty-nine percent on leasehold fees for industrial and tourism purposes.


The Ministry of Education provides a range of incentives for teachers who work in Class A priority areas, including promotion and the addition of four years’ seniority, partial exemption from payment of the employee’s contribution to the in-service training fund, participation in rental costs and travel expenses, and reimbursement of seventy-five percent of tuition fees paid by teachers at institutions of higher education.203 Class B areas do not receive the special benefits for teachers.


For parents in Class A areas, the Ministry of Education provides a discount of ninety percent for tuition fees in pre-compulsory kindergartens. This discount is also provided in settlements included on the map and defined as affluent (see above), contrary to the policy regarding communities inside Israel with the same profile. In addition, the Ministry of Education covers all transportation costs for students to schools in the settlements, regardless of whether a given settlement is included in the map of priority areas.


The Ministry of Trade and Industry provides “approved enterprises” pursuant to the Capital Investments Encouragement Law (i.e., those defined as entitled to government support) with grants of thirty percent in Class A priority areas (twenty percent according to the law, and a ten percent administrative grant), and twenty-three percent in Class B priority areas (ten percent according to the law and a thirteen percent administrative grant).204 Any enterprise approved in accordance with the law enjoys income tax benefits in all areas, both in terms of corporate tax and in terms of individual taxation on income from the enterprise. In addition, industries situated in Class A priority areas are entitled to increased grants for research and development, which can cover as much as sixty percent of the costs of each project.


The Ministry of Trade and Industry also covers a significant portion of costs for the establishment of new industrial zones and the maintenance of existing zones, including significant discounts on land prices. It should be noted that during the 1990s, the ministry established ten new industrial zones in the West Bank, mostly within the area of the six regional councils, at an average cost of approximately NIS 20 million per zone.205 The enterprises established in these industrial zones are under Israeli ownership, and some employ Palestinians.206


The Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs provides social workers it employs in Class A priority areas with a package of benefits that is almost identical to that provided to teachers by the Ministry of Education (i.e., promotion and seniority, funding of tuition fees for higher education, etc.) Regarding Class B priority areas, the ministry provides social workers with three years’ seniority, seventy-five percent reimbursement of travel expenses, and financing of seventy-five percent of the employee’s contribution to the in-service-training fund.


The Ministry of Finance, through the Income Tax Commission, provides the residents of certain locales in Israel with discounts in the payment of income tax at rates varying from five to twenty percent. This benefit is not tied to the map of national priority areas as established by the committee of directors-general. The Minister of Finance decides on the discounts independently, through ordinances he enacts stating the communities to receive benefits and the level of the discount. Most of the settlements enjoy a seven percent discount in the payment of income tax.207

(conti..)

[trainspotter9]

Quote:
This was Israel's latest move to radicalize the Palestinians, killing Hamas' wheelchair bound spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin


He is the head of a goddam terrorist organization, what do you expect? Israel to sit there and just let him tell people to go kill more Israelis?!

I expect Israel not to support this man and Hamas in the 1970's and 80's, destroy the PA throughout the 90's and in the new millenium, and then kill give Hamas a HUGE BOOST in power and popularity over the PA by killing its spiritual leader.

Quote:
A hundered thousand Palestinians flooded the streets after Israel killed this man with rockets from a U.S. made Apache helicopter.


The Palestinians flooded the streets because they were brainwashed from childhood to respect and love him no matter what. Just like many Israelis are brainwashed.

What's your point? Israel supported the rise of Yassin and Hamas and now they have a radicalized Palestinian population on their hands. They made it even more radical by killing its spiritual leader.

Quote:
The expected reprisals from the Palestinians will give Israel an excuse to continue their colonization for several more years.


Another completely empty and idiotic idea here.

Are you saying that the World Zionist Organization's and Israeli government's often repeated desires to expand settlement in the occupied territories don't mean anything? They tell the North American media that they must occupy Palestinian territories for security purposes. Without a militant Palestinian population, they will have no excuse to continue their colonization.

Take a look at this;

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1151

18. Encouraging Settlement

Jewish settlement in the State of Israel represents the expression of the fulfillment of the Zionist vision. Therefore,

It is hereby resolved by the 34th Zionist Congress to encourage, cultivate, assist and strengthen Jewish settlement of all types in the State of Israel.

[CCJ]

*sarcasm* oh no! what will I do?! */sarcasm* You know, not EVERY Zionist uses that specific doctrine. It must say SOMEWHERE in the Palestinian equivalent of that that they must kill all Jews, no? Not EVERYONE listens to the radicals on their side you know. I'm a Zionist, but that doesn't mean I support the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It also doesn't mean that I hate Muslims, even though one of their suicide bombers killed my cousin, it doesn't mean that I support Sharon. "Zionist" is just a title used to describe a general group of people. Like communism, Zionism comprises many different groups and many people with different beliefs.

[naked_turk]

You know, not EVERY Zionist uses that specific doctrine.

No... You all do.

It must say SOMEWHERE in the Palestinian equivalent of that that they must kill all Jews, no?

No, Palestinians never masterminded a plan to go occupy another country and kill and drive out its residents. Therefore, there is no "Palestinian equivalent" of that to begin with.

Not EVERYONE listens to the radicals on their side you know.

You don't make sense. Zionism being already a radical ideology, ALL it's supporters are therefore "radicals." When a "radical" Zionist wants to carry out the ultimate Zionist plan, he suggests the outright killing of all Palestinians. When a "moderate," like Ben Gurion wants to do same, he suggests killing them and covering it up. If a Zionist does not support what was said then he/she is not a Zionist.

I'm a Zionist, but that doesn't mean I support the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Then you do not understand Zionism. All of Israel is stolen land... If you don't support killing Palestinians and stealing a whole country from them, you aren't a Zionist.

It also doesn't mean that I hate Muslims, even though one of their suicide bombers killed my cousin,

So? What does that have to do with anything?

it doesn't mean that I support Sharon.

Sharon or not, all Israeli leaders are war criminals undeserving of any support.

"Zionist" is just a title used to describe a general group of people.

Yes, a general group of people, all with the general belief that non-Jews are inferior. A general group of people that support the killing and rape of Palestinians, the theft of their land. A general group of people that perpetrated a genocide against the Palestinians. God, Zionists are such peaceful, peaceful people.

Like communism, Zionism comprises many different groups and many people with different beliefs.

Don't EVER compare a murderous ideology like Zionism to Communism. EVER.

[CCJ]

You all do.

I don't.

You don't make sense.

I make perfect sense.

Zionism being already a radical ideology, ALL it's supporters are therefore "radicals." When a "radical" Zionist wants to carry out the ultimate Zionist plan, he suggests the outright killing of all Palestinians. When a "moderate," like Ben Gurion wants to do same, he suggests killing them and covering it up. If a Zionist does not support what was said then he/she is not a Zionist.

Lets see the definition for "Zionism" shall we?

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

It doesn't say anything in there about the killing of Palestinians, and I fit the definition, therefore, I am a Zionist.

Then you do not understand Zionism. All of Israel is stolen land... If you don't support killing Palestinians and stealing a whole country from them, you aren't a Zionist.

The USA is all stolen land too. How do you propose fixing that? Its the same concept.

So? What does that have to do with anything?

A lot. Palestinians seem to hate all Jews, but that doesn't mean I have to hate them in return. You need to learn how to accept people.

Sharon or not, all Israeli leaders are war criminals undeserving of any support.

Yes, a general group of people, all with the general belief that non-Jews are inferior. A general group of people that support the killing and rape of Palestinians, the theft of their land. A general group of people that perpetrated a genocide against the Palestinians.

Change that to "Yes, a general group of people, all with the general belief that non-Muslims are inferior. A general group of people that support the killing Jews. A general group of people that are attempting a genocide against the Jews." and you get the Palestinians

God, Palestinians are such peaceful, peaceful people.

Oh, and a genocide is: "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group" I don't see the Israeli's trying to do that. MEANWHILE, the Palestinians are preaching about how EVIL every Jew is and that they have to kill them all.

Don't EVER compare a murderous ideology like Zionism to Communism. EVER.

Fuck off. I won't stand for you insulting my religion. Don't ever do that. EVER.

[CCJ]

no it isn't. You're the idiot for not understanding this.

guess what?

2. Remain courteous and respectful to other users of the Politics Forum at all times. Do not make personally directed attacks on any other user (for example, it is acceptable to accuse someone of making a "moronic proposition" but it is not acceptable to accuse someone of being a "moron").

[trainspotter9]

^ You're right. You made a moronic comment. As far as your personal characteristics, that is none of my business.

You know, not EVERY Zionist uses that specific doctrine. It must say SOMEWHERE in the Palestinian equivalent of that that they must kill all Jews, no? Not EVERYONE listens to the radicals on their side you know. I'm a Zionist, but that doesn't mean I support the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It also doesn't mean that I hate Muslims, even though one of their suicide bombers killed my cousin, it doesn't mean that I support Sharon. "Zionist" is just a title used to describe a general group of people. Like communism, Zionism comprises many different groups and many people with different beliefs.

^ my reference to the World Zionist Organization is very relevant because they are very close to the Israeli government and are very involved in the colonization movement. Furthermore, it is not just the WZO that encourages colonization, the Israeli government also encourages colonization tremendously.

[Deicidus]

Zionism started as a movement for the creation of a the Jewish State. I respect people's desire for autodetermination but this isnt the same as 60 years ago. Now it isnt the creation that they want, as it is already done, but the CONSOLIDATION of the jewish State. Ethnic cleaning of the ``promised land`` for the emancipation of the ``chosen people``.

Their goals are achieved not only by a State, but by a militarist, racist and unrespectfull State.

Hitler's desire for lebanstrum was, as he said, to ensure the development and security of the German people, threw war if necessary. Nowhere was it said or written that it was to be achieve with deportations and genocide. This is politics, what they say, do, and think are 3 different things.

[CCJ]

A few things:
1) I don't appreciate you comparing Nazis to Zionists
2) The WZO can go to hell, I call myself a Zionist because I believe in a Jewish state, and until it looks like one will be established somewhere else in the world, I'll keep defending Israel's right to exist, not necessisarily, however, its actions