[Bosnjak]

Mein lieber Schmidt you are right.

We muslims are now in an internal religious and ideological war comparable to the 30-Year-War in Europe Germany + We have occupation and strong influences of western secret agencies who intervene, but even this intervention from outside will not change the Result but prolong the Fighting, fatah were even weapons delivered by Israel and some Pro-American Arab Tyrans and still they lost in Gaza, the West Bank will follow...

[Vanasalus]

Democracy is not a prerequisite for Secularism, yet Secularism is a prerequisite for Democracy. So, those who are yearning for a “democracy without secularism”, are actually in a daydream.

That being said, public’s detest of secularism in Middle East seems to me subsidiary. As the populations are predominantly Muslim, religious opposition is the only form of opposition which can stand before the tyranny of the rulers, who are so-called seculars. In other words, public hates the tyranny alongside with everything the tyranny is affiliated with. It is unfortunate, secularism is being one.

Can people prefer Islamist rule in countries like, Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Saudi Arabia, over the tyrants of today. May answer is: why not, if it is temporary. Such a transformation will surely help local people to have better life conditions as it did in the case of Iran. Yet, it will not bring an end to the misery as it did not in the case of Iran either. And, the duration of this Islamist phase in Arab countries till reaching true democracy can be much longer than one might guess. So, at the end, I have serious reservations about such revolutions.

And finally, to those who talk about the return of caliph and caliphate: Stop jerking-off in public!

[sploop!]

Sephardi puts forward a cartoon super-villain view of Islam because he is unable to contemplate the possibility that Islam is not all evil. By doing this, he somehow, in his own mind, manages to justify the evil done by Israel. Unless Islam is totally evil, then Israel's massacres of innocents cannot be defended.

Israel is Super Secret Agent 007 to Islam's SMERSH agents, and anything 007 does, is permitted because it is in the interests of saving the free world from Islamic tyranny. I suspect too much TV is the problem. People really ought to start reading again, then this sort of confusion of Hollywood fantasy and dirty reality would not thrive.

[SouthBeirut]

In a Caliphate, we will see women getting abused,

You watch many movies my Sephardic friend.

men practicing polygamy,

Hah, you are jealous because we can have four wives ? I'll get me a blonde, redhead, brunette and a black woman. We know this pisses all of you off.

the female circumcision being used, etc.

Ignorance !! Ummm

This is the idea that keeps us in the Stone Age.

What do you really have against the Stone Age ? What the hell is wrong with the Stone Age ?

We need to advance in Technology

Oh yes, technology.. We need to advance in Technology so we can fuck up the earth more than it is fucked up right now. What has technology got you ? Computers ? Internet ? Tell me what ? You like went to the moon ? Yea, ok, so what ? Fuck the moon... Or is it about TV ? You like your TV too much to be in the Stone Age ? Or is it because we now have weapons able to fuck up humanity and take every single human to hell ?

Pollution, moral decadence, Global Warming... That's what happens when you advance in Technology.

By the way what about the Jews and Christians? Or even other religious groups? Will they have to pay a tax or will you just do pogroms on them quickly to stop wasting time?

What was that question for ? Like you are being smart or funny ? I really don't get it.

[Sephardi]

You watch many movies my Sephardic friend.

And you must be ignorant if you think that women are the same as men in religion, especially Islam, although many other religions have a male dominance.

Hah, you are jealous because we can have four wives ? I'll get me a blonde, redhead, brunette and a black woman. We know this pisses all of you off.

No. I wouldn't take four wives even if it was offered to me. Screw the brunette and the Redhead. Blondes do it best.

Ignorance

It's a well known fact that the female circumcision is used in Islamic societies. Just because a country is ruled by religion, doesn't mean it will be peaceful, and history teaches us the most religious countries commit horrible crimes and use religion to control the people.

What do you really have against the Stone Age ? What the hell is wrong with the Stone Age ?

Only the fact that life would be shit in the Stone Age. And "Stone Age" was used by me as a term to describe people who mentally live thousands of years ago though they physically live in this time.

Oh yes, technology.. We need to advance in Technology so we can fuck up the earth more than it is fucked up right now. What has technology got you ? Computers ? Internet ? Tell me what ? You like went to the moon ? Yea, ok, so what ? Fuck the moon... Or is it about TV ? You like your TV too much to be in the Stone Age ? Or is it because we now have weapons able to fuck up humanity and take every single human to hell ?

Pollution, moral decadence, Global Warming... That's what happens when you advance in Technology.

I was thinking more like the cure for cancer, the cure for AIDS, and explorations to find out what is really happening in the world (and how the world was to be created and such).

What was that question for ? Like you are being smart or funny ? I really don't get it.

I was asking if they will keep the old Caliphate tradition of taxing non-believers as long as they follow One God (and death or conversion if they follow many gods).

Sephardi puts forward a cartoon super-villain view of Islam because he is unable to contemplate the possibility that Islam is not all evil. By doing this, he somehow, in his own mind, manages to justify the evil done by Israel. Unless Islam is totally evil, then Israel's massacres of innocents cannot be defended.

What? Islam is not evil. Fundamentalist Radical Extremists are.

[Bella]

It's a well known fact that the female circumcision is used in Islamic societies.

It is more of a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Islam

Female genital cutting predates Islam.[45]In Saudi Arabia, in the area known as the Hijaz, where Islam originated, FGC was already being practiced during the lifetime of Muhammad. Female genital cutting is not commanded by the Qur'an[46] and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.[45] In Egypt, mufti Sheikh Ali Gomaa stated: "The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds." [47]

[Bosnjak]

This is not an Islamic Tradition it is an African even Polytheists in Africa use this things.


It is nice to see how non-muslims explain muslims how to practice their religion, it is our stuff.

[Sephardi]

Why don't you re-read my post and see what I said. I know that Islam does not condone female genital cutting. The point is, that Muslims still do it, no matter what Islam says.

[Bosnjak]

And finally, to those who talk about the return of caliph and caliphate: Stop jerking-off in public!

First it is not your case to say others how they have to live.

I personaly would prefere an Union like the EU, but still the majority has to decide, and if the majority wants an Caliphate, so why not.

The USA is also not an Secular country, there are also deep religous people in the Senate or were in the Bush administration.

The Religous Christian Leader Billy Graham has supported the Bush Presidental Candidature...

[SouthBeirut]

And you must be ignorant if you think that women are the same as men in religion, especially Islam, although many other religions have a male dominance.

It's not called Male Dominance. It's called ROLES. Men have their roles in the Muslim society and women have theirs. It's not like doing the dishes will make the woman submissive. Unfortunately, people like you want others to believe that we oppress our women by hitting them. That's just crazy, Islam would never tell you to do such things. Videos on YouTube of some idiot extremist Sheikhs saying you can do that are good enough to trick someone who lives in the US and only thinks about McDonalds and having sex. But it really won't trick someone with an open and clear mind. Islam is the religion of peace whether you like it or not.. But we're not Buddhists either, we are going to fight our enemies if they try to invade, oppress or kill us.

And trust me, we are very damn good at it

No. I wouldn't take four wives even if it was offered to me. Screw the brunette and the Redhead. Blondes do it best.

Hehe, nice.

It's a well known fact that the female circumcision is used in Islamic societies. Just because a country is ruled by religion, doesn't mean it will be peaceful, and history teaches us the most religious countries commit horrible crimes and use religion to control the people.

No. It's a fact created by Islam critics. They found one more weapon they can use against Islam, and used it. Even if it's not a fact. It's really very easy to do. Just take like 2 or 3 cases of some North African FGM and link them to Muslims. They wear the same cloths, have a beard, and have a middle-eastern skin color. The other day... You know how the media operates.

I was thinking more like the cure for cancer, the cure for AIDS, and explorations to find out what is really happening in the world (and how the world was to be created and such).

These diseases developed especially because of Technology. How the world was created ? Embrace a freakin religion and forget about it. You have 3 choices: The ones who blows stuff up, the ones which burned people up because they thought they were witches, and the ones who kill children in the name of human shields.

I was asking if they will keep the old Caliphate tradition of taxing non-believers as long as they follow One God (and death or conversion if they follow many gods).

No. You won't get killed if you are a Jew and live in our Caliphate ruled country.

What? Islam is not evil. Fundamentalist Radical Extremists are.

But you make it seem the contrary.

[Bosnjak]

It's not called Male Dominance. It's called ROLES. Men have their roles in the Muslim society and women have theirs. It's not like doing the dishes will make the woman submissive. Unfortunately, people like you want others to believe that we oppress our women by hitting them. That's just crazy, Islam would never tell you to do such things.

Yeah man I like your opinions. The Roles have to be clear that a family stay together.






What is about the Human Traffic in the West? How many girls are enslaved and are forced to sell their bodies, or are beaten and killed by their owners? Most of them were made drug addictive.

the European Commission raised concerns about a growing 'slave trade' in Eastern European women -- some 500,000 may have been forced into commercial sex. As many as 50,000 women and children are brought to the United States under false pretences each year and forced to work as prostitutes, abused labourers or servants, according to a report by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. Few cases are prosecuted.

Source: http://www.unfpa.org/gender/violence1.htm

This social benefits we should also adopt

[Political Interest]

Why don't you re-read my post and see what I said. I know that Islam does not condone female genital cutting. The point is, that Muslims still do it, no matter what Islam says.

And what are you trying to say? We here are not advocating the contiuance of the practices a few Muslims and overwhelmingly non-Muslims practice, what we seek is a return to the true Islam. Trying to take the moral highground against us is quite rich coming from someone who places Meir Kahane in his avatar.

[SouthBeirut]

What is about the Human Traffic in the West? How many girls are enslaved and are forced to sell their bodies, or are beaten and killed by their owners? Most of them were made drug addictive.

Oh yes sir, that's a very sad but real thing that happens in the West... People really need to wake up and look at the moral decadence that the West is living nowadays. I'm currently in Brazil, and I can tell you man, it's pretty fucked up on this side of the planet.. Child prostitution is crazy around here, and even the police won't do nothing, as a matter of fact, I've been told by some locals that policemen do the girls for free in exchange for the "freedom" to work on the streets. That's just disgusting..

[Douglas]

I've been told by some locals that policemen do the girls for free in exchange for the "freedom" to work on the streets. That's just disgusting..

You have the cheek to call anything disgusting?

[Vanasalus]

First it is not your case to say others how they have to live.

Of course I cannot. Yet the history is the undeniable instructor. Even the 3 out of 4 first and righteous caliphs were murdered because of schism among Muslims. Most caliphs after them either used their post for their own political objectives or were used by major Muslim powers as puppets. Caliphs and caliphate never truly united Muslims under singe banner. On the contrary, it brought more division.

I personaly would prefere an Union like the EU, but still the majority has to decide, and if the majority wants an Caliphate, so why not.

No need to worry then, because it will not happen.

The USA is also not an Secular country, there are also deep religous people in the Senate or were in the Bush administration.

People in the government being religious does not necessarily mean that the government is running on religious principles. Regardless of what you might think, US is a secular country.

People really need to wake up and look at the moral decadence that the West is living nowadays. I'm currently in Brazil, and I can tell you man, it's pretty fucked up on this side of the planet..

One of worst kind of delusions among the people of orient is to reduce "morality" to sexual matters alone. Moral values encompass a much wider spectrum than that. And, I, as a Muslim, am sorry to confess that Westerners are in a much better state compared to Middle Easterners in terms of their adherence to the moral values.

[Bosnjak]

One of worst kind of delusions among the people of orient is to reduce "morality" to sexual matters alone. Moral values encompass a much wider spectrum than that. And, I, as a Muslim, am sorry to confess that Westerners are in a much better state compared to Middle Easterners in terms of their adherence to the moral values.

This is unfotunatelly true. In Islamic states the only Industry which is flowerishing is the corruption/bakshish tradition, in each rating we get the worst places.
Corruption in the state is corrupting the hole society.

Of course I cannot. Yet the history is the undeniable instructor. Even the 3 out of 4 first and righteous caliphs were murdered because of schism among Muslims. Most caliphs after them either used their post for their own political objectives or were used by major Muslim powers as puppets. Caliphs and caliphate never truly united Muslims under singe banner. On the contrary, it brought more division.

I knew this facts, and the caliphate led to Monarchy... to much power for one person leads to envy.

currently I am in Switzerland here you do not have 1 President you have 7, and you have direct democracy, each citizen can who collected 100 000 Signatures over each theme of policy you can hold an referendum, and then to government has implement this referendum.

You as Secular Muslim, what will you do if the majority elects a religious party?


@Sephardi you are Years too late, now is not Anti-Islam in, Anti-Semitism is in, in the west

[Vanasalus]

You as Secular Muslim, what will you do if the majority elects a religious party?

Religious party? Do you mean a party which has an agenda to scrape secularism? If yes, then my answer is: all form of tyranny, including the tyranny of majority, must be fought by all means wherever it is located.

[SouthBeirut]

One of worst kind of delusions among the people of orient is to reduce "morality" to sexual matters alone. Moral values encompass a much wider spectrum than that. And, I, as a Muslim, am sorry to confess that Westerners are in a much better state compared to Middle Easterners in terms of their adherence to the moral values.

Which type of Westerners ? American Westerners ? Or European ?
I'd accept that Europeans are in a better state to the moral values.

[Political Interest]

Religious party? Do you mean a party which has an agenda to scrape secularism? If yes, then my answer is: all form of tyranny, including the tyranny of majority, must be fought by all means wherever it is located.

You claim you are a Muslim yet you support secularism? How can your reconcile these two contradictary ways of life? Islam is a comprehensive system which encompasses all fields of human activity. If you rule by other than what Allah(s.w.t.) has revealed you are taking the right of legislator, a right which belongs to Allah(s.w.t.) alone and giving it to yourself. Need I say that this is shirk!? Brother you should make Tawbah.

[Tailz]

You claim you are a Muslim yet you support secularism? How can your reconcile these two contradictary ways of life? Islam is a comprehensive system which encompasses all fields of human activity. If you rule by other than what Allah(s.w.t.) has revealed you are taking the right of legislator, a right which belongs to Allah(s.w.t.) alone and giving it to yourself. Need I say that this is shirk!? Brother you should make Tawbah.

So in other words, the “Western” way of life, which is secularist, is totally incompatible with Islam? Both can not exist without conflict because Islam should be the over riding character of all things?