[stalker]

Of course the WEF isn't going to talk about an issue that that is not within South Africa's power to resolve in any reasonable time frame. Much better to pretend some relative irrelevancy like labor laws are responsible and advance Washington Consensus ideology into the bargain

For the record, South Africa is 35th in Ease of Doing Business (close to Austria), 50th in the WEF's own Competitiveness Report (closely Italy), and 70th in Economic Freedom (close to France). China is 91st, 26th, and 138th on these measures, respectively.

And somehow we're supposed to think that its all down to the horrid business environment.

Ignore IQ if you wish. I for one prefer to use a measure that predicts an economy's success with almost perfect accuracy as opposed to measures that predict almost nothing at all.

[Soulflytribe]

Of course the WEF isn't going to talk about an issue that that is not within South Africa's power to resolve in any reasonable time frame. Much better to pretend some relative irrelevancy like labor laws are responsible and advance Washington Consensus ideology into the bargain

For the record, South Africa is 35th in Ease of Doing Business (close to Austria), 50th in the WEF's own Competitiveness Report (closely Italy), and 70th in Economic Freedom (close to France). China is 91st, 26th, and 138th on these measures, respectively.

And somehow we're supposed to think that its all down to the horrid business environment.

Ignore IQ if you wish. I for one prefer to use a measure that predicts an economy's success with almost perfect accuracy as opposed to measures that predict almost nothing at all.

Since 2011 the World Bank has removed the "employing workers indicator" from the Ease of Doing Business ranking, and thus, has created huge discrepancies like South Africa being the 35º. http://www.ituc-csi.org/ituc-calls-on-world-bank-to.html?lang=en
This ranking is pretty much useless by now, because hiring workers is a thing all companies consider a lot.

And I don't ignore IQ, I'm just saying there are other variants far more important than IQ. Read the text from the New Yorker above, it says basically that people with a 180 IQ and no self-control are complete losers in life, and that people with an average IQ and self-control go to Princeton.

[stalker]

...has created huge discrepancies like South Africa being the 35º.

South Africa's 2009 ranking: 32nd

South Africa's 2012 ranking: 35th

Try again.

[Soulflytribe]

...has created huge discrepancies like South Africa being the 35º.

South Africa's 2009 ranking: 32nd

South Africa's 2012 ranking: 35th

Try again.

The 2009 ranking from South Africa doesn't have the "employing workers indicator" as well. They have made all the rankings again. If you don't believe me go research a little bit inside the site and you will find out. So, where is the REAL 2009 ranking, the one which took in consideration the "employing workers indicators"? I don't know too, the old true rankings were all removed. The NGOs and Unions simply destroyed the Ease of Doing Business Ranking.

[stalker]

Here is the Wikipedia article from September 2009:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =315865784

South Africa rank for 2009: 32nd (as before), 34th in 2010 (again, as on the current article). So your theory of retroactive revisions seems exceedingly unlikely.

Try again.

[Soulflytribe]

No, I won't.

This is not a debate anymore. You keep saying: "It is not, it is not, I don't believe in you, it's unlikely."

I don't care. Be ignorant.

[stalker]

Translation: I have caught you out on misstatement after misstatement.

With links to sources.

Thanks for conceding the debate (such as it was).

[Soulflytribe]

Translation: I have caught you out on misstatement after misstatement.

With links to sources.

Thanks for conceding the debate (such as it was).

Sure, and you got me with the "low south african IQ" thing too.

[J Oswald]

Stalker, where did you get the information regarding the average IQs of Singapore and South Africa? I can't seem to find a reference.

[stalker]

IQ and the Wealth of Nations has a list that's been widely reproduced on the Internet.

You can find it on older versions of the Wikipedia article on the book, though the PC enforcers have removed it from the current version.

But again, if you find IQ comparisons to be too dodgy, inconsistent, and/or racist, feel free to peruse the results of international standardized test (I gave a link to one of them). They tell the exact same story.

[J Oswald]

Thanks for the link.

Although both the possibility of a lower average IQ and the certainty of a poor educational system are contributing to South Africa's misfortunes, I think that the biggest contributing factors are corruption and crime. Businesses can't succeed in a country where baksheesh payments and carjackings are the norm rather than the exception.

[Soulflytribe]

I think that the biggest contributing factors are corruption and crime. Businesses can't succeed in a country where baksheesh payments and carjackings are the norm rather than the exception.

I definitely agree with you. It's just one more ingredient to add to the "how to fail economically" recipe. Living in a very violent city like Rio allowed me to see this correlation from a very short distance since I started reading news:

Crime spikes in the city and the news after a few months are like that:

"After being robbed for the second time, store "x" decides to leave Rio and to open in Sao Paulo."
and
"After being robbed for the second time, international store chain "x" decides to close permanently its store in Rio. The chain doesn't have plans to reopen in Brazil."
and
"Less people are leaving their houses, this trend is happening because they are afraid of being robbed, restaurants and stores selling less 40% compared to the same period last year, some may close."
and
"Less tourists arriving in the city, international perception about Rio's violence surging. Hotels and restaurants making dismissals and cutting costs, some may close."

And then you find out that the GDP of the city decreased that year and that the violent neighbourhoods' unemployment rates increased much more than the overall country's rates. Crime certainly impoverishes cities, states or countries.

[Andropov]

Thanks for the link.

Although both the possibility of a lower average IQ and the certainty of a poor educational system are contributing to South Africa's misfortunes, I think that the biggest contributing factors are corruption and crime. Businesses can't succeed in a country where baksheesh payments and carjackings are the norm rather than the exception.

But why are they the norm rather than the exception?

[Ombrageux]

Stalker - Isn't the whole point that correlation does not imply causation and that, if there is causation, we can't say which way it goes? Would it be at all surprising that the citizens of a wealthier country - more peaceful, with a better diet, able to commit its citizens to prolonged education, with superior technology, etc. - might have higher IQ as a result?

I for one believe very strongly in the malleability of the human mind and indeed of human society. One cannot dismiss out of hand any role for heredity but the claims made of heredity are always intensely political, having consequences far and above whatever the legitimate scientific claims there may be.

[Dave]

You're saying that because you don't like the political implications in that it makes racial equality, equality of outcomes that is, basically impossible. This in turn raises uncomfortable (for liberals) questions about black rule in South Africa, civil rights in the USA, Third World migration to advanced countries, and a host of other questions currently not addressed owing to taboo.

That in no way means that the scientific claims, which I doubt you've ever bothered studying, unjustified.

Even if the extreme environmentalist position is correct (dubious), equalizing the gap would take multiple generations...and thus far no method of closing this gap has been identified by anyone. Not better education, not better healthcare, not better nutrition. Furthermore, it raises another public goods question. If a technology is discovered which can raise IQs, should it only be given to low-achievers, or should it be given to everyone? Does this then raise the risk of maintaining the gap despite everyone getting smarter?

That said...I don't see why the relatively low average IQ in South Africa dooms the country to a persistently high rate of unemployment. The average IQ was no different in the Apartheid era, but unemployment was consistently among the lowest in the world. For that matter, a number of high IQ countries have very serious unemployment problems, for instance Spain.

But in fairness to Stalker, he was discussing per capita wealth which is a rather separate question from unemployment.

[wat0n]

SFT - Yeah, so hard to fire people the unemployment rate only increased from 8.3% in 2007 to 20.1% in 2010!

[/lolbertarian]

8.3% is fairly high considering those were really good times for Spain (it was the lowest unemployment rate since the early '80s). I mean, the US currently has an unemployment rate of 8.3%, just to put things in context...

[Soulflytribe]

8.3% is fairly high considering those were really good times for Spain (it was the lowest unemployment rate since the early '80s). I mean, the US currently has an unemployment rate of 8.3%, just to put things in context...

Countries with very regulated labor markets always operate with high unemployment rates. The root of the chronic huge unemployment in countries such as Spain, South Africa or Portugal is absolutely the same.

A 8.3% unemployment rate in Spain would make the Government and the people cry with joy and celebrate in the streets, the same rate in the US would make people not reelect their current president...

[Dave]

Germany has one of the most highly regulated labor markets in Europe along with one of the lowest unemployment rates.

While I think that flexible labor markets, on average, result in lower long-term unemployment rates it's not that simple.

The the case of South Africa I sincerely doubt that inflexible labor markets are responsible for its chronic high unemployment.

[Dr House]

SFT - Yeah, so hard to fire people the unemployment rate only increased from 8.3% in 2007 to 20.1% in 2010!

Countries with very regulated labor markets always operate with high unemployment rates. The root of the chronic huge unemployment in countries such as Spain, South Africa or Portugal is absolutely the same.

A 8.3% unemployment rate in Spain would make the Government and the people cry with joy and celebrate in the streets, the same rate in the US would make people not reelect their current president...

You're missing the point. If the problem here were that it's impossible to fire people then the unemployment rate wouldn't just be high -- it would be stable, because obviously a surplus labor force wouldn't be dismissed. Obviously it's possible to fire people in Spain, otherwise the labor force wouldn't have purged enough people to double unemployment rates.

Unemployment is actually a function of demand for labor, which is a function of the state of a country's productive capacity -- while employers are obviously reluctant to hire workers they can't fire, the more badly they need workers the more they will draw in, regulations be damned. As Dave pointed out, there is not a direct correlation within Europe between labor regulation and unemployment. The actual reason unemployment rates are so high in Western Europe is in all likelihood the over-generous unemployment benefits European countries offer, which encourage people to register as unemployed but not make a real effort to look for work.

[Soulflytribe]

Germany has one of the most highly regulated labor markets in Europe along with one of the lowest unemployment rates.

While I think that flexible labor markets, on average, result in lower long-term unemployment rates it's not that simple.

The the case of South Africa I sincerely doubt that inflexible labor markets are responsible for its chronic high unemployment.

Well, you can't really compare Spain, Portugal, South Africa with Germany...
But still, Germany is currently enjoying a very good moment and yet has a 6,7% unemployment rate. What would this number be during a harsh economic period? 15%?

I agree that countries such as France or Germany "accept" in a better way very regulated labor markets, since they are very developed countries. This pattern simply doesn't occur in less developed economies. With a more flexible labor market France and Germany would always have a unemployment rate similar to the one Singapore has: never above 2%.