Unemployment in S. Africa reaches 25% of the population. - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

Moderator: PoFo Africa Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#13891777
Dr House wrote:You're missing the point. If the problem here were that it's impossible to fire people then the unemployment rate wouldn't just be high -- it would be stable, because obviously a surplus labor force wouldn't be dismissed. Obviously it's possible to fire people in Spain, otherwise the labor force wouldn't have purged enough people to double unemployment rates.


When companies claim bankruptcy or close branches they can fire people. That's the only thing they can do.
An employer thinks something like: "Since it's impossible for me to operate this store with half of the employees I currently have, because of the regulation that forbids me to fire without a "reason", I will have to close the branches A, B, C and D."
#13891789
Soulflytribe wrote:When companies claim bankruptcy or close branches they can fire people. That's the only thing they can do.
An employer thinks something like: "Since it's impossible for me to operate this store with half of the employees I currently have, because of the regulation that forbids me to fire without a "reason", I will have to close the branches A, B, C and D."

A fair point, and one you could have made from the beginning, rather than dancing around the question. Of course my second point stands -- a greater worker demand leads to lower unemployment for obvious reasons. Besides which it just can't be as simple as that, given that people in European countries have an incentive to remain unemployed (as I pointed out already).

Another point that you've failed to consider: The reason employers more readily hire workers in less restrictive employment environments is that they can more readily fire them, which ultimately means the choice is down to how easily they can get rid of a redundant employee. This in turn means that a higher hiring rate is offset by a higher firing rate; so if the firing rate is low they'll just take more care to investigate their workers before hiring them; cutting out the process of putting them on trial for a month or so before giving them das boot. It evens out.
#13892929
An easy method to eliminate poverty, unemployment and criminality is by killing the lowest, dumbest and criminally-inclined members of South Africa. As the result of ingenious plan, South Africa would become less poor and land would also be freed up by getting rid of slums too. ;)
#13893028
Stalker - Isn't the whole point that correlation does not imply causation and that, if there is causation, we can't say which way it goes?

That high human capital fosters development is both intuitively obvious and backed by a ton of studies.

There is some reverse causation as well, but nowhere near as strong.

Would it be at all surprising that the citizens of a wealthier country - more peaceful, with a better diet, able to commit its citizens to prolonged education, with superior technology, etc. - might have higher IQ as a result?

Up to point, a better diet helps, but becomes moot once GDP per capita exceeds $5000 or so. Malnutrition, which is prevalent in India and sub-Saharan Africa, can be part of the explanation for their currently low IQ's; but the same cannot apply to South Africa.

Same with prolonged education. Outside of the poorest countries today, school enrollment is virtually universal, and lasts at least 8 years. In some regions (e.g. the US, Europe, Japan, Korea, and China) school-children near graduation do very well on international standardizes tests; in many other regions, they don't do nearly as well (e.g. Turkey, Thailand, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina) or remain practically illiterate and innumerate (e.g. South Africa, India).

India at least has the mitigating factor that about half its children, to this day, are malnourished - a rate higher than the average for sub-Saharan Africa - which must play a significant role. But this doesn't apply to South Africa, which is a middle-income country where basic food security isn't really an issue. There, by Occam's Razor, the reason has to lie in some combination of culture or, yes, heredity.
#13895457
Stalker, do you have any reliable stats for food security in South Africa? I actually find it hard to believe that in a country as unequal, with as high an unemployment rate, and with a GDP per capita of only $14,000 they don't have at least some hunger issues. Most South American countries do.
#13895571
Or other issues related to educational quality, health, the need for employment at a young age, etc. Like ombrageaux says its hard to believe that in a country of 25% employment, innate ability is the cause of low IQ rather than environmental factors. Correlation is not causation and we don't know which way causation goes.
#13895746
Stalker, do you have any reliable stats for food security in South Africa? I actually find it hard to believe that in a country as unequal, with as high an unemployment rate, and with a GDP per capita of only $14,000 they don't have at least some hunger issues. Most South American countries do.


Image
#13897088
A very quick Google search tells me that the ration cards are not the only legal avenue for acquiring food in Cuba, that not all food products are rationed, and that the amounts allotted to each citizen by their ration cards are adequate for nourishment purposes. As such, the Global Hunger Index's classification appears accurate.

Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim?
#13897132
J Oswald wrote:and that the amounts allotted to each citizen by their ration cards are adequate for nourishment purposes.


Please, man, don't say that. It's cruel. How the hell can the Government know how many eggs and how many bottles of milk should I take home? What If my body and children need 2 eggs per week instead of one? How Fidel can know better than us how much food do we need? He might be the greatest leader ever, but he is not God yet.

If you want to know the truth about Cuba you will see it, if you do not want, what the hell can I do? I don't know where do you live, but if you can, try to talk to a cuban immigrant. It might help.

I don't know if all data in this map is flawed, but the cuban one is. Cubans don't eat like brazilians or argentines. I don't own a ration card.
#13897152
Soulflytribe wrote: Please, man, don't say that. It's cruel.


No, it's quite sensible to ration out food from both a social and economic standpoint, especially given that the food covered by the rationing plan is subsidized.

How the hell can the Government know how many eggs and how many bottles of milk should I take home?


It's not exactly difficult to determine, considering that nutritional requirements are well-researched for all age groups.

What If my body and children need 2 eggs per week instead of one?


Then they can spend money to buy extra eggs from a store. You forget that there are other legal avenues by which to acquire food.

How Fidel can know better than us how much food do we need?


Again, nutritional requirements have been well-researched for decades. You'll recall that the British lived under full-scale rationing for years, and there wasn't exactly food insecurity during that period.

He might be the greatest leader ever, but he is not God yet.


You have no idea what my political ideology is, do you?

If you want to know the truth about Cuba you will see it, if you do not want, what the hell can I do? I don't know where do you live, but if you can, try to talk to a cuban immigrant. It might help.


Lovely. I'm being lectured on "the truth" by somebody who has been in this thread spouting conspiracy theories about how the Cuban data used by the Global Hunger Index is flawed.

I don't know if all data in this map is flawed, but the cuban one is. Cubans don't eat like brazilians or argentines. I don't own a ration card.


So, in other words, you have no proof of your claim that the data on Cuba is flawed.

.
#13897204
Soulflytribe - It is very easy to know how much a human being should eat per day, nutritionists figured this out a long time ago. Rationing has also been in place in many countries, notably in wartime, and is not proof in itself of hunger. On the contrary, if a country just barely has enough food to feed itself, rationing is one of the ways to ensure no one goes hungry (inequality would mean some inevitably would go hungry while others overeat, as is common in many countries far richer than Cuba).
#13898220
I guess I should clarify a couple of points. When I was in Cuba, we used the rationing card (the Tarjeta) as a basic building block of our diet. The card had pages, and when one bought an item the page was ticked off, punched, or scribbled upon. But having the card didn't mean one had the food - we had to hussle to find the food itself, and quite often we didn't find it. "There isn't any" (No hay), was a pretty common response.

So how did we supplement the ration? My family had resources others didn't have, because my dad was a physician, and people have a tendency to try to make sure their doctor doesn't starve, so he was offered deals to buy black market food. Buying black market food could be dangerous because they would really put a person in jail for dealing in the black market. I have one political aunt who spent time in a women's jail because she had a large bag full of meat.

Anyway, the food supply had to be supplemented with the black market, and we hussled to get the food. We also bartered a lot. So I was taught that, if I was walking down the street and I saw a line, to get in it, and somehow get a message to my parents that I was in line. It didn't matter if they were selling Chinese toasters, or Potemkin Razor Blades, the idea was to buy stuff, then barter to get food or other stuff. Toothpaste, soap, and toilet paper were really good barter items, because everybody used them.

We also planted a vegetable garden and raised rabbits, but that meant we had to stay up keeping the thieves away, so in the end we sort of let the garden decay, and my parents got a pretty good deal with black marketeers who traded for medicines my dad stole from the hospital. And if you don't get it, in Cuba everybody stole at work. I hear they still do it.

It has been many years since I was able to escape Castro's gulag, so my memory gets fuzzy sometimes. I do know that, when I bought my first pair of jeans in the US, after I left Cuba, my waist size was 28, and I was 6 ft tall. So I was definitely skinny, although I wouldn't say I was underfed.

Nobody in my family starved, we always managed to find food. When it got bad, relatives and friends pitched in. But we were obsessed with the lack of food, it's like a relentless pressure, worrying about it. And we worried about it even when we were young, because as I mentioned above, children were taught to stand in line and make sure they scoured for food wherever it could be found. And the thing is, we were middle class, and we even had a maid in our house, so it was pretty weird, my parents were professionals, highly educated, and we worried about eating so much, it was obsessive. Other things were a hassle, like the lack of toilet paper, or lack of running water and electricity.

I think what bothered the adults in my family more than anything, was knowing that all the shortages and the pain were caused by people like Che Guevara and Fidel, who were incredibly stupid when it came to economics or managing things. And all of us really resented their strutting and their arrogance, telling the rest of us they knew better, Marx and Lenin blah blah blah, yackety bleeeh blaaah. The mother f*ckers were bad people, they did not stand a single word of dissent, and yet they made mistake upon mistake. It was as if the Mad Hatter had been crossed with Adolf Hitler, and had the ability to run our lives.

I think if you're in China and you starve, at least you know there's one billion Chinese and people always starve in China, but damn it, we didn't have to live like that. They were ruining our lives for what? So they could wear their red hankies and sing crappy songs?

I understand now things have changed, and they have dollar stores (or what they call CUC stores), where people can buy food openly at usurious prices. So I send money to my family in Cuba so they buy food and get ripped off by the "communists" who run things, who are more like fascist sunbitches and who I'm sure some day will be kicked out.

When Fidel dies, if I'm still alive, I'll toast and tell the devil to enjoy himself, because he has a juicy soul he can use to play. If I were Eminem, and I could rhyme, I would post something else, using the right language, a nice rap where I tell Fidel and Raul Castro they are garbage, with a punchy line at the end, something like screw you and have a nice day.

I guess this doesn't have much to do with South African unemployment. I worked in Africa, and in general it seems to me they need to learn some birth control, and to avoid tribal infighting. I don't think those countries they got are real, seem to be glued together as a result of colonial times, and there is no sense of nationality. But heck, people in the UK are always arguing they are not English, and they still manage to get things done. And I don't think the problems Africans have can be solved by capitalism or socialism or any other ism as long as they are collapsing their environment and fighting between tribes the way they do. I got Cuban relatives who fought in Angola, and they feel really bitter about the way they got drawn into what amounted to tribal warfare by a bunch of savages. That war didn't mean anything.
#13898264
Thanks for sharing that SC. Really. It's very easy for those of us securely raised in Western security to pontificate on issues that ultimately are abstract, it's quite different when the thing in question viscerally affected one's life experience.
#13898441
Dr House wrote:Fascinating. I'm not sure how reliable these numbers are, but South Africa having hunger problems roughly equal to, say, Peru, makes a lot of sense.


No it doesn't simply because of the strength of our agricultural sector. I keep telling you, the preconceptions that you have about SA are very silly, you clearly have no clue what on earth is happening down here or what you are talking about.

And liberals continue to claim that South Africa is a "multicultural success story". Apartheid was an immoral system, but it should have been dismantled at a steady, controlled pace. I predict things will only get worse for the country.


How on earth would one have been expected to dismantle apartheid at a steady pace? That's akin to saying Nazism and their policies should have been dismantled at a steady pace.
#13898505
I don't recall South Africa launching a world war or sending people to the gas chambers

If anything they were too kind to blacks

If they had adopted Nazi-style policies the country would be all-white today

Instead whites are a smaller share of the population than ever since the Apartheid government was paternalistic towards black people
#13898587
Dave wrote:I don't recall South Africa launching a world war or sending people to the gas chambers

If anything they were too kind to blacks

If they had adopted Nazi-style policies the country would be all-white today

Instead whites are a smaller share of the population than ever since the Apartheid government was paternalistic towards black people

Wow...The authority on all South African matters has weighed in on the debate folks. Blacks THRIVED under the apartheid regime. What do actual South Africans know? Rednecks from Chicago have a far better grasp of South Africa's history than actual South Africans. This was ALL a figment of the worlds imagination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlakplaas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_Education_Act,_1953
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natives_Land_Act,_1913
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immorality_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_laws
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vorster_Square
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_ ... uth_Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Area ... opment_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Area ... opment_Act
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natives_Resettlement_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservatio ... nities_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Lab ... tes%29_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_Building_Workers_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natives_%2 ... cts%29_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_K ... uth_Africa

Woohoooo! Feel the LOVE folks! No, you're right as always, how dare any other population group in South Africa of a darker hue be entitled to the right to liberty, freedom, dignity etc in comparison to whites despite their decades of ill gotten privilege and abuse of power. I mean even Gandhi, a pacifist, felt the nationalists intense love for people of a darker hue. But they're just silly, stupid, subhuman blacks at the end of the day, not human beings right? How much of a degenerate can one actually be to convince themselves that the apartheid regime was "too kind" to blacks :knife:

Liberia is not indistinguishable from other Afric[…]

Taiwan-China crisis.

I don't put all the blame on Taiwan. I've said 10[…]

“Whenever the government provides opportunities a[…]

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

Afghanistan defeated the USSR, we are not talking[…]