[politburo player]

Maybe you need to stop living in the past and accept the current situation in South Africa.

I have: check my last post...

If you notice, the bottom of my OP is littered with sources, and the ones that weren't from the CIA World Factbook, Death of Johannesburg or otherwise listed, are from wikipedia. Wikipedia, in turn, has their own footnoted sources listed at the bottom of each article.

My second to last post that commented on SA crime was source-rich, after each point there was a wikipedia article...

My last post was my analysis based on all the research I have conducted on South Africa, no specific sources, as the statistics I quoted were from stuff that I have read. I could certainly find where I read those stats and back them up if you do not believe them.

The majority of your points about South Africa have been so off that both sides of the South African political spectrum would disagree with you.

Do you mean the left and the far left?

[No double posting.]

[Kaspar]

First of all, putting links to wikipedia pages is not citing information. Especially when you claim it addresses something that isn't even mentioned in the article, i.e. Afrikaner rape and the article on sexual violence in South Africa. Just because there is information footnoted on the articles, it doesn't mean the links to the footnotes are accurate. Often times they just lead to biased/outdated information, and I'm not about to go and check every footnote on your wikipedia articles to see if it's a legitimate source.

Secondly, many of your CIA world factbook statistics are just singular statistics. These are useless in showing the improvement or lack of improvement a country is making. Unlike the statistics I have shown you, they don't address South Africa over a period of time, just in 2009.

Thirdly, many of the statistics are outdated or even false, as I have pointed out in my previous posts.

Just littering a post with various statistics doesn't make the statistics worthwhile or the post anymore accurate.

Next time, instead of deducing that crime is getting worse because more restaurants are getting robbed or more gated communities are being built, just show me straight statistics. That way we can just cut to the chase instead of getting ourselves into a long, rather pointless thread.

[politburo player]

Again, the future is what we should debate from here on out.

Thanks for addressing the issues I brought up in such an admirable, classy way. Even though we are ideologically split, and I disagree with many of your convictions about South Africa, most racial or post-Apartheid arguments about South Africa are like water under the bridge. What happened, happened, and South Africans now have to contend with a future that will be defined by the polarizing, Pan-African political party that dominates their country. Instead of quarreling about the past, the only thing we can really do is speculate about South Africa's future.

Also, all I have to formulate my opinions from are what a few South African acquaintances have told me, and the internet. You actually reside there. But I think the enormity of the world wide web exposes things that the liberal media (BBC, CNN), and certainly the SA media would never report. Farm violence and bloody land redistribution crimes are solely reported by independent websites and blogs; the liberal mainstream media has not and probably will never touch these stories, even though most credible sources put the number of white SA farmers killed since 1994 at 3,200, and most of the victims have little hope of legal redress in the corrupt ANC bureaucracy. These crimes are probably, according to some liberals, a necessary or acceptable byproduct of a justified people's revolution.

The future of South Africa will, in my opinion, be determined by how it's government decides to treat its white population. My conclusion for this is simple; even though whites comprise a mere 9.6% of the population on a good day, they make up over half of SA university graduates. In addition, much of the non-white population ended up in the nation's universities through militant affirmative action policies. Given the well documented 'brain drain' in South Africa since 1994, it will be incumbent on South Africa's leaders to curtail it from further undermining the country.

[Kaspar]

Ok, you win, I give up.

[Korchagin]

To suggest that there is racism towards whites in South Africa is ludicrous. They own 90 percent of the country's land. They are vastly over-represented in South Africa's parliament. Many whites are members of the ANC, most notably transport minister Jeremy Cronin. The Democratic Alliance party alone, whose support is composed mostly of whites, has close to 15 percent of the seats in parliament.

[politburo player]

To suggest that there is racism towards whites in South Africa is ludicrous. They own 90 percent of the country's land. They are vastly over-represented in South Africa's parliament. Many whites are members of the ANC, most notably transport minister Jeremy Cronin. The Democratic Alliance party alone, whose support is composed mostly of whites, has close to 15 percent of the seats in parliament.

What about the government's authoritarian land redistribution doctrine? Or BEE? Why are those two policies not racist?

From the economist:

South Africa’s post-apartheid governments have stuck to the principle of “willing seller, willing buyer” at the market price. But, as President Jacob Zuma has admitted, that model is not working, partly because of its huge cost. The government talks ominously of other “practical strategies” to acquire land “more quickly and inexpensively”, sending shudders through South Africa’s 40,000 white farmers.

Since 2007 the country has been a net importer of food, after decades of self-sufficiency.

Uh oh, sounds like the commies are running the country into the ground... Most socialist countries are net importers of food, after all...

Besides, the recession-burdened government faces more pressing demands, such as the provision of basic services to the country’s increasingly turbulent poor black townships.

Oops, so things aren't that much better under black leadership for the average poor black. We have seen this same scenario play out all over post-colonial Africa. The colonialists leave, and hand the keys to the Cadillac over to an irresponsible mob of AK-47 toting revolutionaries...

http://www.economist.com/world/middleea ... d=15022632

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment

[XAdamX]

Not when you are debating with someone who has little to no understanding of South Africa, its history, and its people. The opening anecdote concerning Charlize Theron was rich though.

~Many African youths in Cape Town believe that raping a white baby will cure them of AIDS

This had no source (surprisingly). Did it come from Stormfront?

[politburo player]

~Many African youths in Cape Town believe that raping a white baby will cure them of AIDS

This had no source (surprisingly). Did it come from Stormfront?

You wish it didn't have a source...

Today in South Africa, babies are being raped, infected and then dumped at garbage disposal sites around the nation at an alarming rate. Many babies with HIV/AIDS also are abandoned without being raped or otherwise abused.

Why is baby rape endemic in South Africa? It is fueled by a bizarre belief among many African black men that sex with a virgin – even a child or baby – can cure HIV/AIDS.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27236

More sources...

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213

http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-02-12/n ... child-rape

Even a scholarly article on the subject...

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

[Alchemy]

You will find that baby rape in the Western Cape is part of a notorious gangs initiation process and has nothing to do with the raping of WHITE babies! You will find that black babies bear the brunt of this terrible practice and not white babies! The problem with the Afrikaans and Right wing media which you appear to be a budding subscriber of is that sensationalism forms a key component of their creative story telling in order to justify the inequities and practices of the past.

[politburo player]

You will find that black babies bear the brunt of this terrible practice and not white babies!

Oh, like that makes it all better? Or was that your point, that they only do it amongst their own, so white people need not worry... That sounds like where you were headed with your above statement.

[Alchemy]

The point is you alluding that white babies are the ones bearing the brunt of the practice.

~Many African youths in Cape Town believe that raping a white baby will cure them of AIDS

You are attempting to racialise (as usual) a problem affecting all south africans. Not just whites.

[Figlio di Moros]

I have to agree with Alchemy, the practice is dispicable but not racial; obviously white parents have to worry about their baby being raped by a degenerate African, but not apart from blacks and not from racial motivations.

Also, while the "baby rap" syndrome is unique, the idea sex with a virgin will cure STD's is fairly common outside of modern society and the advent of medical treatments; I know it wasn't uncommon for British gentlemen to purchase a night with a virgin up atleast to the late 19th century to cure the drip.

[politburo player]

The point is you alluding that white babies are the ones bearing the brunt of the practice.

I can see the problem being even more frightening to whites given that the barbarian rape method eminates from subcultures outside of the white community. I can't think of a more horrific crime, but you cannot deny that it is a black phenomena, as you never hear of Boers doing it.

[Alchemy]

I can see the problem being even more frightening to whites given that the barbarian rape method eminates from subcultures outside of the white community. I can't think of a more horrific crime, but you cannot deny that it is a black phenomena, as you never hear of Boers doing it.

I have not come accross one case as a South African where a white child was involved in this. Let me tell you what the Boers of the apartheid regime used to do to new born black babies. They were left on a table in a room directly after birth. If the baby turned blue it was considered black. Dont talk to me about barbaric practices involving babies. I could go on to document countless other examples for you.

[politburo player]

I have not come accross one case as a South African where a white child was involved in this. Let me tell you what the Boers of the apartheid regime used to do to new born black babies. They were left on a table in a room directly after birth. If the baby turned blue it was considered black. Dont talk to me about barbaric practices involving babies. I could go on to document countless other examples for you.

Are we back to talking about the cutting edge South African health care system? South Africa's population is not even growing because so many people are dying from a preventable, well known, sexually transmitted disease! That's the real genocide. The fact that the SA government has had little effect on curtailing the 350,000+ deaths per year (0.7% of the population) from AIDS speaks volumes. AIDS kills more South Africans in one year than Boers killed in 100 years.

[Alchemy]

Are we back to talking about the cutting edge South African health care system? South Africa's population is not even growing because so many people are dying from a preventable, well known, sexually transmitted disease! That's the real genocide. The fact that the SA government has had little effect on curtailing the 350,000+ deaths per year (0.7% of the population) from AIDS speaks volumes. AIDS kills more South Africans in one year than Boers killed in 100 years.

Its pointless attempting to debate someone who suffers from cognitive dissonance. As you were....

[politburo player]

Its pointless attempting to debate someone who suffers from cognitive dissonance. As you were....

Yes, South Africa has Darfur levels of disease.

You are an elitist because I had to look this one up! I guess that is the case... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[Alchemy]

I wonder why it would have been in the Apartheid regimes interests to ignore a pandemic amongst a particular majority race group.

As you were.....

[politburo player]

The funny thing is that most of Southern Africa was very sparsely populated by blacks as their population bases were up in the equatorial areas which use compltely different crop types and farming methods. Whites came and settled Southern Africa because of climatic similarity to Europe and the non-equatorial climate where they could grow crops that they were all familiar with. The equitorial blacks came after most Afrikkaners had already established trading posts, farms, and villages.

The only indigenous 'Africans' from South Africa are the Khoi-San peoples who are very small in number. In fact, Khoi-san (considered "coloured" people) are also discriminated in South Africa by the Bantu majority. Because they were favored over Bantus by the whites, they receive no affirmative action, and are among the poorest and most victimized people in South Africa. The blacks that dominate South Africa now are almost all Bantu-speakers from the equitorial area and actually have less history with South Africa than the whites who have been there longer. The flow of migrants to sparsely populated South Africa was started by whites, but yet they are still viewed as 'invaders', even though they have been there longer than the Bantus who migrated there for day labor on white owned farms and mines.

[Kaspar]

Did you grow up reading Apartheid era history textbooks, politburo?