Robert Mugabe - "Whites, go back to England!" - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14464039
fuser wrote:Of course as reality dictated (being in minority) that they can't hope to hold on power, regardless of performance of Rhodesia it had to go because of the "reality" and hence my post mocking the notion that somehow colonialists have "better" perception of reality.

Minorities were/are able to hold power with relative ease in various locations, such as Syria and Iraq, and could only be removed by being backstabbed or attacked by an outside force, or embargoed and sanctioned. The same is true for Bahrain (the most profound expression of a minority propped up by US and UK, to the extent that these countries actively protected Bahrain from the ramifications of the Arab Spring), and Saudi Arabia.

Why do leftists suddenly develop a blind spot once the third-world dictators are light-skinned? Ian Smith's government was not particularly different from any other minority government backed up by military force. I can sympathise with Assad's supporters for the same basic reasoning that I would be able to sympathise with Ian Smith's supporters.

I notice that no one actually disputes the fact that basically a British refusal to support Ian Smith resulted in China and ZANU getting an easy win where they otherwise could not have had it.
#14464043
You are loosing the track here, I didn't posted here to declare my support for anyone and it seems my work here is done. Colonialist apparently aren't better at perceiving reality (one would say they are bad at it within the context of this example) and that's why lost in Zimbabwe.

Trying to remain in power without outside or inside support is opposite of understanding reality.
#14464048
You've argued a full circle, which is precisely the kind of nonsense that I'd expect from leftists. At the end of the day, all you've offered the thread is petty-moralism. Which is part of why I look down on leftists these days, you all started copying the left-liberal nonsense - which is unsurprising given that half of their nonsense actually originated with you lot.

The reason that colonialists lost in Rhodesia is because they lost their outside support (because mainland Britons believed stupid anti-racist bullshit), and then after that, they simply fought on in a losing battle because that's the only possible option. That doesn't mean that they were unable to understand reality, it just meant that they chose death when presented with the chance, and that mainland British left-liberals and leftists will never be able to understand that moment.

Because they always place other people into that moment, rather than themselves.

If you are a mainlander and you refuse to support colonialists because your 'morals' are in the way, then don't be surprised when the colonialists lose. That's the reality, and everyone is going to have to live with it.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 12 Sep 2014 15:24, edited 1 time in total.
#14464049
Still butthurt about a centre-left government refusing to support reactionaries?

They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so, and did not. Fuck, it's one of the few times in history when centre-leftists showed any sort of integrity.
#14464050
Then white mainlander left-liberal Britons need to shut the fuck up and stop bitching about "oh no, look what is happening in Zimbabwe". I'm only asking them to shut the hell up. They caused it, so they should shut up and stop complaining like if they were not the ones who brought about the wonderful 'freedom for black people' or whatever they like to imagine it is.

They should just give Robert Mugabe the respect that is due to a strongman, and shut the hell up. In the end it was going to be one of three different types of dictatorship, and they chose the Shona agrarian dictatorship rather than the Anglo-Saxon or the Ndebele one.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 12 Sep 2014 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
#14464051
I was talking Petty Moralism? Oh sorry I forgot your new found habit of arguing against imaginary arguments.

But yeah, hey we can't win and no one wants us here but let's be real and keep fighting.
#14464054
fuser wrote:I was talking Petty Moralism? Oh sorry I forgot your new found habit of arguing against imaginary arguments.

You were talking nonsense and you know it. No one ever calls you people on this stuff, but I am willing to do it.

fuser wrote:But yeah, hey we can't win and no one wants us here but let's be real and keep fighting.

They said what the reality was, which was that they needed the British backing or else someone like Robert Mugabe would end up becoming a dictator and the country would be moved out of the British sphere of influence. Stupid left-liberal morons refused to listen, and left them to fight it alone and lose.

So I think that was pretty much a set of correct predictions.

KlassWar wrote:If they didn't want to be ruled by the Maoists their best best was to cut a deal with pro-Soviet revolutionaries. They chose not to do it and got the Maoists. Sucks to be them, I guess.

Yet later the left-liberals would still come out and be like, "look at the bizarre communist-style madhouse that has developed in Zimbabwe! How did that even happen?!"

As though they don't know exactly how it is happening. British politics is just absurdity at least 50% of the time.
#14464057
What a tragedy. We've had three thousand years of viscous murderous aggressive Bantu expansionism. There was a chance of halting the march of the Bantu and creating a zone of freedom from their terror in South Africa. Sadly South Africa Whites failed to create a state that wasn't dependant on Bantu Labour. Apartheid was a doomed venture. Once it was clear that Colonialism was coming to an end the White of South Rhodesia should have withdrawn into southern South Africa
#14464061
It is indeed ironic, yes, that only a select group of certain African ethnic groups (selected almost at what appears to be random selection), as well as the Arabs and the Russian Slavs, are able to have aggressive expansion all day every day, without leftists ever going back a couple centuries to question what on earth they are doing in the areas that they are allegedly 'defending' in the first place.

It's a completely glaring inconsistency, and it's so disorganised that the only point of reference that I can find is the reference point of "Were they on the USSR's geostrategic bucket list at some point in time?" But to get leftists to admit to that will probably be impossible.
#14464088
Rei wrote:The reason that leftists fear former colonialists is because they usually have really down-to-earth ideas about how reality works, and aren't prone to holding self-destroying policy preferences. The best elements of the UK are the descendants of colonialists, in my view.


Legitimately curious: Wouldn't this make the Americans, at least the WASPs, super-great in your opinion?
#14464089
Rei Murasame wrote:It's a completely glaring inconsistency, and it's so disorganised that the only point of reference that I can find is the reference point of "Were they on the USSR's geostrategic bucket list at some point in time?" But to get leftists to admit to that will probably be impossible.


The point of reference is ideological, not racial. Which peoples are on the Left and struggling against the Right? Them's our side, simple as that.
#14464122
The Immortal Goon wrote:Legitimately curious: Wouldn't this make the Americans, at least the WASPs, super-great in your opinion?

Nope, since they existed under different circumstances and deliberately defected from the UK even though the UK was giving them everything on a plate. So they are not considered British, since they just got up and left to do their own thing, proactively. They'd never turn around and say "Britain ought to do XYZ", because they don't care.

In fact, on top of them not being British, the Americans largely supported what Harold Wilson's government was doing, since it joined them in the embargoes against Rhodesia. So on that issue they also actively demonstrated that they were inhabiting a different reality from what British colonialists were inhabiting.

KlassWar wrote:The point of reference is ideological, not racial. Which peoples are on the Left and struggling against the Right? Them's our side, simple as that.

Even if they are completely incompetent and will crash the country over time?
#14464223
Petty moral ism, anti racism has nothing to do with the Retreat of the British Empire. As the Britain got a bit more democratic and the costs of Empire went up the vast bulk of the British population were not willingly to fight/die or pay higher taxes to support the colonies. Simple self interest. There was also a factor in the US turning the screws but again it mostly US trade interests.

Rei I think you whole argument about why the British Empire no longer rules vast swathes of Africa is totally wrong. You have taken some propaganda about the retreat of empire put out and beleived it, the moralism and anti racsit stuff was noise and fluff not a mover in why it happened.
#14464239
Any reasonable analysis of British Government actions would tend to agree with my view over yours. Yes there is a lot bleating amongst the chattering classes and their media but actual driving influence in the British Government decision making process? I do not see that at all. The drive to the retreat from empire was economic and blood driven. The British were not willingly to serve and die in the British forces propping up the empire, and the British public were unwilling to pay higher taxes for the empire.
#14464248
You're just repeating yourself, but I don't care. I don't believe anything that leftists say on these subjects, because on these issues you people have your agenda, and you are willing to deliberately and consciously set aside facts when it suits you. I will not believe your narrative on this no matter how many times you repeat it.

You believe that a deliberate refusal to fight because of cowardice and tax-avoidance is 'strength', whereas I call that 'weakness'. This is because you are a leftist and I am not.
#14464255
Britain was prepared to grant independence only under the condition that the Black population had "a fair share of the power". No matter what one thinks about this, it was first and foremost this moral position of the British government at the time that led to the unilateral independence declaration and later sanctions. As far as I can see, Britain could have simply permitted independence and remain neutral on how the country was governed.
#14464256
Kaiserschmarrn (emphasis added) wrote:Britain was prepared to grant independence only under the condition that the Black population had "a fair share of the power". No matter what one thinks about this, it was first and foremost this moral position of the British government at the time that led to the unilateral independence declaration and later sanctions. As far as I can see, Britain could have simply permitted independence and remain neutral on how the country was governed.

Pretty much.

But this is obvious perhaps to everyone except left-liberals and leftists. Why? Because they are so used to making that kind of moral condition, that they don't even recognise it as a moral condition anymore. They call it 'inevitability', even though it was conscious movement of their own hand that penned it.
#14464257
We are in agreement. Liberalism comes with a set of moral positions (much like any ideology) which find their way into policies. And while the moral element is not often dominant and usually has to give way to realpolitik, it can happen sometimes.

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