Why African poverty? - Page 18 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

Moderator: PoFo Africa Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
User avatar
By Drlee
#14740066
The reason I'm mocking this idea is because you seem to think Africa is a thing. It isn't. The reason Botswana is relatively wealthy is different from the reason that Chad is dirt poor. The reason Senegal (which is also really poor) has had a stable democratic government is different from the reason what used to be Zaire has been convulsed by dictators and civil wars since independence. Somalia has been burned to ashes multiple times yet Namibia has a stable government around the same time since...


Yes.

There is somehow the assumption that 'Africa' is a pit of despair. It is almost always referred to in the singular. I think there are some serious questions left unanswered in this thread and I am surprised that POD has not chimed in.

We Europeans/Americans (there are no Africans here as far as I know) are completely ignoring the elephants in the room. Egypt and Morocco. Surely they should be excluded from this overall impression of Africa as somehow backward, etc.

I also expect that we are uncomfortable with the notion that any nation or people for that matter may be happy outside of our modern world. There are a number of rich and vibrant alternatives to modern lock-step in Africa. Yes people die younger in many regions and hunger is a problem in some. But is that the measure of quality of life? Does the fact that some nations fail to alleviate these problems effectively label them as backward? If so the US clearly falls into the backward category compared to many of its more enlightened neighbors.

If you look at Europe there are a number of countries which need to be brought forward by these standards. A friend of mine just finished a tour in Albania. Not exactly Frankfurt.
User avatar
By Bosnjak
#14754324
@Suntzu where would be the USA without the Black Music or the Ghetto Style

I Got also the Mark to bei stupid in school entry Test Just because I Größe Up in the wildness with Wolfs and sheeps but I could handle shotguns unlike to communist Elite Party children.
User avatar
By Bosnjak
#14754506
Jealousy is the reason why poor Nations remain poor especialy in new rich.

Obama in Afrika would not Even Marke to Major of Mombasa.

Therefor they need in poor countries to live in rich prison Dame like in Balkans
#14754600
Bosnjak wrote:Jealousy is the reason why poor Nations remain poor especialy in new rich.

Obama in Afrika would not Even Marke to Major of Mombasa.

Therefor they need in poor countries to live in rich prison Dame like in Balkans

Are you having a stroke, you're writing isn't as bad as before now.
#14754609
Are you having a stroke, you're writing isn't as bad as before now.

Bosnjak seems to have had some sort of psychotic breakdown. Either that, or he's on a very bad acid trip. :eh:
#14760097
Solastalgia wrote:Resource/economic exploitation under colonialism (going back generations) and neo-colonialism that continues to this day.


When will people stop looking backwards and blaming the Victorians for 21st century corruption in Africa? Modern day Africa runs on corruption, it's endemic. In Nigeria the largest economy in Africa 43% of people admitted [in 2015] to having paid a bribe for public services, many more were suspected of paying bribes. There are cases where presidents and kings who rule over poverty stricken people have multi million $ private properties in London, New York and Florida. Lesotho is one of the poorest countries in the world yet the president has two multi million pound Lear jets. In Kenya government officials were found to be buying thousands of ball point pens for $85 each and this isn't even the tip of the iceberg, the examples go on and on and to constantly blame the empire does not address the problem of corruption in Africa.
#14760229
Red Rackham wrote:When will people stop looking backwards and blaming the Victorians for 21st century corruption in Africa? Modern day Africa runs on corruption, it's endemic. In Nigeria the largest economy in Africa 43% of people admitted [in 2015] to having paid a bribe for public services, many more were suspected of paying bribes. There are cases where presidents and kings who rule over poverty stricken people have multi million $ private properties in London, New York and Florida. Lesotho is one of the poorest countries in the world yet the president has two multi million pound Lear jets. In Kenya government officials were found to be buying thousands of ball point pens for $85 each and this isn't even the tip of the iceberg, the examples go on and on and to constantly blame the empire does not address the problem of corruption in Africa.


Are you incorrectly assuming that modern corruption is not a legacy of colonialism?
#14760245
Suntzu wrote:Yeah, I'm sure the Africans weren't corrupt before Europeans arrived. :D


I have no idea why you post in these forums. You seem unwilling or incapable of putting forth actual arguments.

Just a racist joke and a smiley, every time. :roll:
#14760264
Pants-of-dog wrote:Are you incorrectly assuming that modern corruption is not a legacy of colonialism?


The assumption is all yours. I said, constantly looking back and blaming Victorian colonialism for 21st century corruption ain't going to help.
#14760280
So, yes, you are making that incorrect assumption.

Do you think that colonial government is a good model for local government?
User avatar
By Drlee
#14760282
Are you incorrectly assuming that modern corruption is not a legacy of colonialism?


Are you assuming that widespread slavery and cannibalism are not a legacy of pre-colonial Africa?

What is the point?
#14760508
Pants-of-dog wrote:Are you incorrectly assuming that modern corruption is not a legacy of colonialism?

That would be a correct assumption, as colonial governments were typically less corrupt than both the previous and the subsequent native ones. International comparisons of corruption have found, remarkably, that of the 25 least corrupt countries in the world, exactly one -- Singapore -- does not speak a Germanic language. Coincidence? Don't be absurd.
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, yes, you are making that incorrect assumption.

It is factually correct.
Do you think that colonial government is a good model for local government?

It's not a practical model, for very obvious reasons. That doesn't mean, except in PoD Anti-Logic Land, that it was somehow the source of post-colonial corruption.
#14760521
Truth To Power wrote:That would be a correct assumption, as colonial governments were typically less corrupt than both the previous and the subsequent native ones. International comparisons of corruption have found, remarkably, that of the 25 least corrupt countries in the world, exactly one -- Singapore -- does not speak a Germanic language. Coincidence? Don't be absurd.


Since I am claiming that subsequent governments are bad becase of the colonial legacy, it actually supports my point that subsequent governments will ge worse after colonialism.

I have no idea how you would support the claim that pre-colonial local governments were more corrupt than the colonial government.

Mind you, the question of corruption may not even be a good metric, as even a colonial government that did exactly what it was supposed to would still be a bad model for local governments since the whole point of a colonial government is to extract as much wealth from the local area and give it to a foreign power.

It is factually correct.


I doubt it.

It's not a practical model, for very obvious reasons. That doesn't mean, except in PoD Anti-Logic Land, that it was somehow the source of post-colonial corruption.


I think the similarities between the corruption endemic to colonial governments and the corruption endemic to modern African governments are pretty clear.
#14760535
Corruption would depend upon your definition. The most recently discovered indigenous people would seem to indicate colonization brought modernization to Africa. Whether that is good or bad is debatable, but they would be at a much lower level of development without colonization. Poverty, which is the topic, is also defined by modern terms which equates modernization with wealth so there would be more poverty in Africa by our definition, but not necessarily by theirs. Their definition would probably be based upon available food and they are worse off there due to colonization. Their corruption is also debatable, since tribal structure might be defined as corrupt by us, but not by them. Tribal structure would also give control of the wealth to a few just as capitalism does.
User avatar
By Drlee
#14760577
The thing is that there is no alternative to colonialism. It would be naïve to think that Africa, America, South America, etc would remain as they were. We can whine about it and think of Native Americans as wandering new-age ecologists, but that is simply a modern construction. The fact is that all three of those places were beyond brutal at times and certainly no less "moral" than those to colonized them. And very frequently very much worse.

They were coming to the 21st century one way or the other.
#14760653
Drlee wrote:The thing is that there is no alternative to colonialism. It would be naïve to think that Africa, America, South America, etc would remain as they were. We can whine about it and think of Native Americans as wandering new-age ecologists, but that is simply a modern construction. The fact is that all three of those places were beyond brutal at times and certainly no less "moral" than those to colonized them. And very frequently very much worse.

They were coming to the 21st century one way or the other.

I suppose I'm the odd one out here, but in my book, people don't have to be perfectly civil and well-behaved little angels to deserve to be free from brutal conquest, rape, pillage, enslavement, destruction of their culture, etc. Kind of like how I don't think women who dress provocatively or get drunk deserve to get raped. I guess I'm just not that into victim-blaming. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
#14760655
Paradigm wrote:I suppose I'm the odd one out here, but in my book, people don't have to be perfectly civil and well-behaved little angels to deserve to be free from brutal conquest, rape, pillage, enslavement, destruction of their culture, etc. Kind of like how I don't think women who dress provocatively or get drunk deserve to get raped. I guess I'm just not that into victim-blaming. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.


And yet the point Drlee made is that the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, and Native American tribes raped, pillaged, and enslaved each other. It's simply a dispassionate observation of history. The Europeans simply did what they did in the New World on a greater scale due to the enormous disparity in technology, manpower, and resources. What do you think would have happened to people in neighboring continents had the Mesoamericans developed steel, gunpowder, and ocean-faring ships before the Europeans did? Peace, love, and brotherly understanding?

I don't think it's fair to equate what Drlee said with someone justifying rape. He obviously isn't defending raping, pillaging, and slavery.
  • 1
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17
  • 18
  • 19
Blackface: Canada's Racist PM

It's absolutely priceless that this is happening t[…]

Here is some propaganda, facts, and fake news for […]

Huh. From the Guardian: Gunmaker Colt says it i[…]

Some might, but since that has nothing to do with[…]