Is Africa A Sh*tHole? One African Thinks So. - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

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#14879896
Rancid wrote:This is an idiotic thing to say.

Businesses certainly do care about the type of government that is in place.

Businesses love dictatorships and authoritarian governments over democracies. Largely because in a dictatorship or authoritarian government, the power is held by a select few. Thus, it's fewer people to buy off to get what you want (access to minerals, or access to a cheap labor force). Governments also love dictatorships and authoritarian governments because again, it's easier to buy support. For example, it's easier to provide foreign aid to a country in exchange for say, fighting ISIS (because the local population can be disregarded). Thus, to make dealings with foreign entities easier, we want there to be dictatorships and non-democratic governments in place.

Most dictators in Latin America were supported by America in some way (at least initially), precisely for this reason. It just makes business easier, and it makes politicians easier to buy off.


This isn't really a debate because the numbers speak for themselves. Regardless, your little story about bribing officials sounds nice on paper, but is not something businesses generally want to deal with. They want their property to be secure, only the law can guarantee that. If your business is backed by the US military it might be a different story, but how far that backing goes is questionable as well.
#14879899
Rugoz wrote:
This isn't really a debate because the numbers speak for themselves. Regardless, your little story about bribing officials sounds nice on paper, but is not something businesses generally want to deal with. They want their property to be secure, only the law can guarantee that. If your business is backed by the US military it might be a different story, but how far that backing goes is questionable as well.


It's not just nice on paper. There are numerous books and accounts on this subject. People hired by companies to go around the world strong arming and paying off people for the benefit of their company, all with the approval of the US government. If not the approval, they just look the other way.

I can think of one such book, it's called The Dictators Handbook. I think thre's another one called confessions of an economic hit man. Some people on pofo have recommended that one too.

I'm sure there are a lot of business that are doing legitimate business, and they are not bribing or helping to maintain the power of some despot. However, there are many that are doing just that. It's often in the mining industry (guess what continent is super rich in resources).

In fact, a report recently came out saying how the global mining industry is the most corrupted industry on the planet. Lots of people have their hands dirty, including many governments and businesses.

It's an ugly truth, but we have to recognize it.
#14879904
Rancid wrote:It's not just nice on paper. There are numerous books and accounts on this subject. People hired by companies to go around the world strong arming and paying off people for the benefit of their company, all with the approval of the US government. If not the approval, they just look the other way.

Maybe, under the Obama government, but the Trump government has plans to change all that so businesses can operate under less red tape regulations so everyone prospers. Praise the Lord.
#14879909
Rancid wrote:It's not just nice on paper. There are numerous books and accounts on this subject. People hired by companies to go around the world strong arming and paying off people for the benefit of their company, all with the approval of the US government. If not the approval, they just look the other way.


Jeez, I never said companies don't do it. I said they prefer to invest in places where they don't have to. Rule of law has a positive influence on FDI (among other factors of course). E.g. here

Strong Rule of Law is a close third, with 88%
saying this is either “essential” or “very important”
to FDI decision-making.


https://www.biicl.org/documents/625_d4_ ... document=1

There's also empirical work if you don't trust surveys.
#14879911
Pants-of-dog wrote:None of this is an argument.

And your assumption that we are all Clinton supporters is incorrect. People can think Trump is stupid and racist and at the same time not like Clinton.


your very good at trying to change the context from my origanl post


Drlee wrote: No need to sugar coat it. His childish behavior is harming the nation and the fact that his stupid supporters can't see that even more frightening.



Argument ? Again I wasn't aware you were in charge here a POFO who really cares what you think. I can post an observation if I want., BTW please stop making stuff up. Please post where I said Clinton supporters.

Use "stupid" in replace of "deplorable's".
#14879914
Rancid wrote:Don't believe this is true? Just look at Saudi Arabia, why is the US so friendly with this regime that oppresses? Because it's good for business.


I think Saudi Arabia is not the best example as it does have a decent standard of living for the middle east almost entirely because of that business relationship, wouldn't this also be the case for Africa (which it isn't)?

This is not a 1-to-1. America's "post-colonial" influence whether in supporting democracies or dictatorships was almost all cold-war related. As the British Empire rescinded, American Democracy or Soviet Communism was there to fill the void and America could not let Africa go red even if it meant supporting non-democratic regimes who happened to be anti-Soviet.

Nowadays, the United States supports it old alliances (like how it foolishly supported Pakistan since 1989) in Africa (whether democratic or not), but has shifted towards humanitarian aid campaigns and overwhelmingly so. We are not nearly as militarily vested there other than preventing the spread of Islamic extremism or preventing Blocs that would challenge the Petro-Dollar (as Gadaffi tried to do).

Otherwise, it does not seem that the United States has a proactive foreign policy in sub-saharan Africa beyond this, and thats my point. I think our actions in "toppling regimes" in the 70s and 80s and supporting anti-communist governments, whether democratic or not, was almost entirely justified given the cold war, but I don't see any of this being the basis for excusing Africa's problems now. Africa has known "dictators" and "monarchs" and "chieftains" for its entire existence since pre-colonial times and it still hasn't figured out how to create a powerful nation state from this experience to compete with the great powers of the world, even with all of its resources? I'm sorry, but that is one tale too tall for this hillbilly.

Adversity is one of the principle causes for Asian and Western strength (and Africa has known plenty). International conquest, economic crashes, civil wars, etc., almost invariably resulted in greater strength and innovation in both east Asia and Europe, why hasn't this happened in Africa? Because we give them too much foreign aid and create trade deals with dictators? Give me a break.

When you see how devastated Japan was after WWII and how quickly it became a leading economic power, Africa does not have much of a leg to stand on.

The fact is, something is seriously broke in Africa and this has been the case going back before the colonial period. The author of the OP-article blames a lot of it on Africans hating other Africans (refusing cooperation) and simultaneously blaming the white man for their problems while shamelessly begging the white man for foreign aid (which we know KILLS food prices in these nations). They need to be cut loose or recolonized and nothing in-between will work for them. Mark my words, that is a prediction as much as it is a theory.

Rancid wrote:Your suggestion is kind of like asking a crack addict to just "get yourself together" and right after that, you hand them another crack pipe.


For the reasons I gave above, I think this is hyperbolic in the extreme. Africans need to stop in-fighting and start prioritizing public needs. We need to stop sending foreign aid and get back into the neo-colonial race in Africa against China, but that would require us dropping this white-guilt bull-shit.

If we want to help Africans, we need to use them for our economic gain MORE instead of propping them up with tax-paid aid and humanitarian niceties. China is doing just this and is gaining a coalition there. I don't think we have the will to do it if we can't even call a spade a spade without getting triggered.

Africa is a shithole, its not our fault, its theirs, but we have made it worse because we are propping up a dead horse with foreign aid. We have two choices, we can make it better by getting involved like China or the great powers before us, or we can go back to late 19th century isolationism and leave them the fuck alone.

Thats it. Its that simple.
#14879959
Tainari88 wrote:Suntzu it doesn't matter what IQ you have or don't have. Your posts are not what I consider analytical. Leave it at that.


I'm crushed. My 8 year old niece doesn't seem to understand what I say either. Sometimes the simples solution is the best, something about Occam. How would you expect a society with an average I.Q. to perform? On another note, how would you expect a population with an I.Q. of 85 to perform. The two questions are linked. :p
#14879968
Suntzu wrote:I'm crushed. My 8 year old niece doesn't seem to understand what I say either. Sometimes the simples solution is the best, something about Occam. How would you expect a society with an average I.Q. to perform? On another note, how would you expect a population with an I.Q. of 85 to perform. The two questions are linked. :p

So you are basically rhetorically challenging all to an IQ test.

I think I've heard Trump talk like that.

There's gotta be a special term for when admiration of some cult figure gives way to direct immitation, like how some Trump followers frequently seem to do.
#14879972
Pants-of-dog wrote:The same thing happens when I visit LA, Detroit, Miami, Vegas and other places in the US.

They do not even have public health care or paid parental leave.


I guess you don't travel much or at all. Did you ever even met a African in real life? Anyway, comparing LA, Detroit, Miami and Vegas lack of better structure and social benefits compared to other USA States or cities is one thing, comparing their lack of structure and social benefits with any of the many countries in the African continent isn't just ignorant at best is really a level of ignorance that is laughable, people like you should be entertainers.

I imagine you're in your mothers basement typing the most ridiculous things you can think about.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It makes an insulting generalisation about a whole continent of people, the same ones who have to deal with crap like this every day because of their skin colour.

And the fact that Trump says racist crap often. It is part of his strategy for getting and maintaining power.

Now, why do you now think opinions are true facts?


:excited: You're that guy who says Africans had to deal with racism everyday in a continent where basically all of them are black. It's hilarious how you can shows us simultaneously your ignorance and prove the point Africans are also racists.
Last edited by Politiks on 16 Jan 2018 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
#14879973
Tainari88 wrote:Suntzu it doesn't matter what IQ you have or don't have. Your posts are not what I consider analytical. Leave it at that.


Based on your posts, I think is clear why you can't understand certain things or see what is analytical or not....number 85 suits you :excited:
Last edited by Politiks on 16 Jan 2018 23:12, edited 1 time in total.
#14879974
Suntzu wrote:I'm a good bit smarter than Trump . . . but a lot poorer! :p

I don't know if this is true or not.

I'm also not sure how it's relavent to your imitation act before. It probably doesn't tend to affirm your point though, if it does anything.

Now, at least I'm not aware of you posting 'fake news!' yet, whenever you see a CNN link. I'm not aware of this, I said.
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