[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

You probably have your own definition of what whiteness means.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

You probably have your own definition of what whiteness means.

I want yours.

How exactly is the ANC rewarding whiteness?

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

No.

Since you think I go around gaslighting people, you have no reason to trust my definition.

You should probably just ignore me.

[ThirdTerm]

In genetic studies people have alleles and recessive genes and dominant genes. But what it fascinating is that mutation of spontaneity. It reacts to what is selected for or against in any given physical environment. We are symbiotically reacting all the time to each other, to nature and to the laws of physics and genetic codes, diet and habits and learned and adapted habit formations.

According to a study (Posth et al. 2023) which came out yesterday, most Paleolithic European hunter-gatherers were dark-skinned with an absence of the two SNPs associated with skin colour (SLC24A5 rs1426654) and (SLC45A2 rs16891982). Only Ukraine or Russian hunter-gatherers had high frequencies of the light-skin alleles (>90% for SLC24A5 and 29–61% for SLC45A2), which did not become dominant in northern Europe until the Bronze Age. All South Africans are victims of Cold War politics. Washington supported extremist regimes in Africa and Latin America to keep socialist or communist parties at bay. The ANC was backed by the Soviets, who supplied the ANC with food, and with non-military equipment and goods. The Soviet Union gave support to banned ANC fighters, including Mandela himself.


Fig. 5: Ancestry modelling of hunter-gatherers from 14–5.2 ka and their allele frequencies on phenotypic SNPs.

b, Allele frequencies of different hunter-gatherer groups (coloured dots) on four SNPs related to skin colour (SLC24A5 and SLC45A2), eye colour (HERC2/OCA2) and lactase persistence (LCT). Dots are maximum likelihood estimates and error bars show 95% confidence intervals of the derived allele frequencies (n, the number of individuals in each group, is provided in Supplementary Data 3.G). Dashed lines show the frequencies estimated for the indicated present-day 1000 Genomes Project populations (CEU, Utah residents of northern and western European ancestry; GBR, British; IBS, Spanish; TSI, Tuscan )37. Details on the allele frequency estimates are provided in Supplementary Information, section 12, Supplementary Figs. 27 and 28 and Supplementary Data 3.G.

Phenotypically relevant variants
Leveraging the substantially increased sample size, we investigated genetically distinct hunter-gatherer groups for allele frequencies at selected loci that are known to be associated with specific phenotypic traits in present-day Europeans (Fig. 5b and Supplementary Figs. 27 and 28). Consistent with previous findings, none of the analysed groups show the derived allele at SNP rs4988235 on the LCT gene, which is responsible for lactase persistence. As previously hinted37, we find a large frequency variation in alleles related to skin and eye pigmentation among post-LGM hunter-gatherer groups. For the SNP associated with light eye colour (HERC2/OCA2 (rs12913832)), individuals from the Villabruna cluster, Oberkassel cluster, Baltic HG and SHG groups show high frequencies of the derived allele (>90%), which is responsible for the green or blue eye phenotype, whereas Sidelkino cluster, Ukraine HG and Iron Gates HG groups show low occurrence of this allele (10–25%). Instead, for the two SNPs associated with skin colour (SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and SLC45A2 (rs16891982)), Sidelkino cluster and Ukraine HG groups show a higher frequency (>90% for SLC24A5 and 29–61% for SLC45A2) of the derived alleles related to light skin colour, compared with Oberkassel and Villabruna clusters, where those alleles are almost completely absent (<1%). On the basis of the genetic variation of present-day Europeans, this could imply phenotypic differences between post-14 ka hunter-gatherer populations across Europe, with individuals in the Oberkassel cluster possibly exhibiting darker skin and lighter eyes, and individuals in the Sidelkino cluster possibly lighter skin and darker eye colour.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0

[ckaihatsu]

De Klerk

---

A staunch opponent of civil rights legislation in the 1950s and 1960s, Thurmond conducted the longest speaking filibuster ever by a lone senator, at 24 hours and 18 minutes in length, in opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1957.[2] In the 1960s, he voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Despite his support for racial segregation, Thurmond denied the accusation that he was a racist by insisting he was a supporter of states' rights and an opponent of excessive federal authority.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond

[ckaihatsu]

The article seems to say that Apartheid left a legacy of systemic problems that are still excluding non-whites.

That's what the article says. Whether that claim or interpretation is true is another matter.
You see, a claim like that isn't an indisputable fact; it's an interpretation of the facts (and a somewhat questionable one at that). You seem to have trouble telling the difference between the two.

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Why South Africa is still so segregated

---

Some in SA even say whites are a discriminated against minority group now.

Are you saying this *yourself* -- ? It's interesting how you've phrased it, like it's a 'good' rumor, but you're just-going-to-keep-your-distance from it for the time-being.


The Meanings of Spatial Relationships

Spoiler: show

[ckaihatsu]

Trade Unions being shit is just an American thing or Americas thing. They are pretty strong here in Europe, so not sure how it is related to just capitalism.

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During the Cold War, anti-communist armed groups engaged in attacks on left-wing parties with torture, terrorist attacks, and massacres in countries such as Italy.[5][6][7][verification needed] The role of the CIA and other intelligence organisations in Gladio—the extent of its activities during the Cold War era and any responsibility for terrorist attacks perpetrated in Italy during the "Years of Lead" (late 1960s–early 1980s)—is the subject of debate.

Operation Gladio was the codename for clandestine "stay-behind" operations of armed resistance that were organized by the Western Union (WU), and subsequently by NATO and the CIA,[1][2] in collaboration with several European intelligence agencies during the Cold War.[3] The operation was designed for a potential Warsaw Pact invasion and conquest of Europe. Although Gladio specifically refers to the Italian branch of the NATO stay-behind organizations, "Operation Gladio" is used as an informal name for all of them. Stay-behind operations were prepared in many NATO member countries, and some neutral countries.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Operation_Gladio

[wat0n]

@wat0n

No.

Since you think I go around gaslighting people, you have no reason to trust my definition.

You should probably just ignore me.

Fair.

Would you agree with this 2020 infographic from one of the Smithsonian museums? Does it accurately represent whiteness?

Whiteness and white racialized identity refer to the way that white people, their customs, culture, and beliefs operate as the standard by which all other groups of are compared. Whiteness is also at the core of understanding race in America. Whiteness and the normalization of white racial identity throughout America's history have created a culture where nonwhite persons are seen as inferior or abnormal.

One may wonder if most of these traits are truly "white" or not (my take: they're not) and, more importantly, if a modern society can even minimally function and a government can fulfill its core responsibilities without them (my take: it can't).

[Potemkin]

Fair.

Would you agree with this 2020 infographic from one of the Smithsonian museums? Does it accurately represent whiteness?







One may wonder if most of these traits are truly "white" or not (my take: they're not) and, more importantly, if a modern society can even minimally function and a government can fulfill its core responsibilities without them (my take: it can't).

These are not “White” traits - they are specifically Anglo traits. And societies and governments can function perfectly well without such traits, as societies in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia testify.

[wat0n]

These are not “White” traits - they are specifically Anglo traits. And societies and governments can function perfectly well without such traits, as societies in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia testify.

If anything, Germans and Nordics are the first ones I'd associate to those traits, Anglos come at a close second though. I also associate East Asians with several of those things mentioned there.

But as importantly, there are essential jobs that are necessary for any society to function properly which require one or more of those traits. A transportation system can't work properly without a minimum of punctuality, an energy grid can't function if several of those traits (punctuality, rational thinking, planning for the future, respecting rules/authority, etc) don't exist either. The same goes for healthcare, schools, the military, a functioning government bureaucracy, etc. That's not history, but simply a technological reality and (yes) our educational systems and culture do adapt to it - a notion that should be uncontroversial for any self defined Marxist I would add.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n
Again, there is no reason for you to engage with me, considering your opinion of my honesty.

———————-

Back to the topic:

It seems almost impossible to imagine a post-Apartheid SA that does provide actual and practical equality. The inequities associated with widespread overt state racism are embedded even in the geography of the built environment.

And since this was made to benefit whites in SA, and things like having all the good schools in white neighborhoods is still the norm, the system is still to their benefit.

This makes conversations about moving forward beyond racism more difficult, since only the legal and overt racism has been dealt with.

But I doubt anyone actually expects white people in SA to give up their neighbourhood schools, or share them, or let poor black people move in to the neighborhood, or enact any meaningful reform.

In fact, I predict people will explain to me why it is difficult or impossible to eradicate racism in SA.

[ckaihatsu]

If anything, Germans and Nordics are the first ones I'd associate to those traits, Anglos come at a close second though. I also associate East Asians with several of those things mentioned there.

But as importantly, there are essential jobs that are necessary for any society to function properly which require one or more of those traits. A transportation system can't work properly without a minimum of punctuality, an energy grid can't function if several of those traits (punctuality, rational thinking, planning for the future, respecting rules/authority, etc) don't exist either. The same goes for healthcare, schools, the military, a functioning government bureaucracy, etc. That's not history, but simply a technological reality and (yes) our educational systems and culture do adapt to it - a notion that should be uncontroversial for any self defined Marxist I would add.

This is fatuous -- management / managerial practice would *never* rely on any one employee *anyway*, so your whole 'meritocratic' mindset is decidedly too granular, regardless.


---

Professor Kenneth Paul Tan at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy asserts that "meritocracy, in trying to 'isolate' merit by treating people with fundamentally unequal backgrounds as superficially the same, can be a practice that ignores and even conceals the real advantages and disadvantages that are unevenly distributed to different segments of an inherently unequal society, a practice that in fact perpetuates this fundamental inequality. In this way, those who are picked by meritocracy as having merit may already have enjoyed unfair advantages from the very beginning, ignored according to the principle of nondiscrimination".[51]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocra ... y_to_today

[wat0n]

This is fatuous -- management / managerial practice would *never* rely on any one employee *anyway*, so your whole 'meritocratic' mindset is decidedly too granular, regardless.


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It does not rely on any or most employees, but in all or most of them.

I'm surprised you believe there's something "odd" about what I'm saying. What's so hard to grasp about the idea that plenty of essential technical jobs require having a mindset that's broadly aligned with that infographic? Even in the Soviet Union, by the way.

That's why I don't think there's anything particularly "white" or "Anglo" about it. Any relatively modern society lives by those traits in one way or another.

What it does show is that the mindset that motivates those types of infographics is actually quite reactionary, in the Qatzian sense. And the ANC seems to have become that way, somehow, even though I don't think they were supposed to judging by all the problems they're having with even the most essential duties of a government (the same can be said about other recent basket cases like Venezuela).

[ckaihatsu]

It does not rely on any or most employees, but in all or most of them.

I'm surprised you believe there's something "odd" about what I'm saying. What's so hard to grasp about the idea that plenty of essential technical jobs require having a mindset that's broadly aligned with that infographic? Even in the Soviet Union, by the way.

That's why I don't think there's anything particularly "white" or "Anglo" about it. Any relatively modern society lives by those traits in one way or another.

What it does show is that the mindset is actually quite reactionary, in the Qatzian sense.

Your hallowed glorification of 'human creativity' as the mythic source of economic progress has *still less* ground remaining to stand on, since AI can now automatically deliver on human-initiated *prompts*, for basically any deliverable imaginable (images, text, audio, video), so b.f.d. at *this* point, I'd say.

Are you sure you're really not more interested in perpetuating the technical-minded *culture*, for the sake of enabling *procurement* by the powers-that-be -- ?

[wat0n]

Your hallowed glorification of 'human creativity' as the mythic source of economic progress has *still less* ground remaining to stand on, since AI can now automatically deliver on human-initiated *prompts*, for basically any deliverable imaginable (images, text, audio, video), so b.f.d. at *this* point, I'd say.

Are you sure you're really not more interested in perpetuating the technical-minded *culture*, for the sake of enabling *procurement* by the powers-that-be -- ?

If you want to do away with that "culture", be my guest and report back.

Note: AI is not nearly as advanced as you think it is.

[ckaihatsu]

If you want to do away with that "culture", be my guest and report back.

Note: AI is not nearly as advanced as you think it is.

You're not getting it -- as soon as someone *turns* to face a machine, to interface with it and get it to do what it does, that person / worker has *become* a machine, so-to-speak, and then we have to ask the crucial question 'To what ends?'

If that someone is a *hobbyist*, like myself (for rendering 3D graphics), and they *own* their own computer / machine, then that's a *privilege* of sorts, societally -- arguably / depending.

If someone is a *technician*, for a *company*, then either they have some vested private interests there, or else they've been effectively *proletarianized*, and are functionally serving the interests of ownership, like any other employee.

AI *is* now as advanced as I think it is.


DALL-E can make us discover what lies outside the frame of famous paintings

[ckaihatsu]

Individualism is a disturbing and disintegrating force. Therein lies its immense value. For what it seeks to disturb is monotony of type, slavery of custom, tyranny of habit, and the reduction of man to the level of a machine.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

[wat0n]

You're not getting it -- as soon as someone *turns* to face a machine, to interface with it and get it to do what it does, that person / worker has *become* a machine, so-to-speak, and then we have to ask the crucial question 'To what ends?'

If that someone is a *hobbyist*, like myself (for rendering 3D graphics), and they *own* their own computer / machine, then that's a *privilege* of sorts, societally -- arguably / depending.

If someone is a *technician*, for a *company*, then either they have some vested private interests there, or else they've been effectively *proletarianized*, and are functionally serving the interests of ownership, like any other employee.

AI *is* now as advanced as I think it is.


DALL-E can make us discover what lies outside the frame of famous paintings

Right, because the pandemic taught us essential workers are not... Hmmm, essential, right?

Instead, we should all strive to write unreadable postmodern crap that can, in fact, be generated by a bot (and has been since 2000).

[ckaihatsu]

Right, because the pandemic taught us essential workers are not... Hmmm, essential, right?

Instead, we should all strive to write unreadable postmodern crap that can, in fact, be generated by a bot (and has been since 2000).

I'm not quite following your train of thought here. Maybe you'd like to *rephrase* -- ?

[wat0n]

I'm not quite following your train of thought here. Maybe you'd like to *rephrase* -- ?

Sure.

The pandemic reminded us some jobs are essential for keeping society functioning and most people alive. One would think they are thus fulfilling in their own way.

AI is not replacing all jobs anytime soon so working will still be necessary, but it can already replace postmodern paper mills.

https://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/