[Tainari88]

I am impressed by how articulate and analytical many of these people are talking about their colonial history, racism and socioeconomic inequality and how laws made it all difficult.

What is the future of South Africa?

How can these people make a real reconciliation?

The original debate:

[Puffer Fish]

I am impressed by how articulate and analytical many of these people are talking about their colonial history, racism and socioeconomic inequality and how laws made it all difficult.

In several ways, what you would consider to be "racism" was fundamental to the structure of the South African economy.

It might be that racism actually played a constructive role in increasing economic productivity, in this situation. Even if it was unfair to many members of the population.

For example, there are issues of crime. With racial segregation, the white communities, where most of the economic activity was concentrated, could insulate themselves from the problem of crime from the lower economic classes. Crime ends up having a huge burden on economic productivity. Today in South Africa lots of resources are spent trying to protect from crime.
You might be familiar with the "screening hypothesis" in economics, where employers do not have accurate information about which job candidates are actually likely to be good choices. Well, for better or worse, simple racism turns out to be a simple solution to that problem that doesn't cost too much in the economy.

And then issues of corruption in leadership, both in business and politics. When you recruit from the lower classes, there is likely to be more corruption.

[ckaihatsu]

"racism" was fundamental

racism actually played a constructive role

No, I don't think that you or anyone else could make the case that *dividing* society adds to its overall economic development.

In reality, they had no significant economic infrastructure and with few exceptions encompassed swaths of disconnected territory. This meant all the Bantustans were little more than puppet states controlled by South Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid ... Bantustans

[Puffer Fish]

No, I don't think that you or anyone else could make the case that *dividing* society adds to its overall economic development.

I just did. Why don't you think about it.

Let me guess. You don't want to put any thought into something that you know would only result in an undesired conclusion, if true.

[JohnRawls]

I am impressed by how articulate and analytical many of these people are talking about their colonial history, racism and socioeconomic inequality and how laws made it all difficult.

What is the future of South Africa?

How can these people make a real reconciliation?

The original debate:

Heavily unlikely. Whites discriminated blacks until apartheid ended and after now whites are being discriminated and put all blame for SA current incompetence and corruption. The fact that ANC is stuck back somewhere in the 80s ideologically also doesn't help. This will probably only get worse as economic conditions in SA worsen due to corruption and incompetence.

[Tainari88]

@JohnRawls how does a nation that had apartheid for hundreds of years and excluded the majority of a nation for years and used violence to stay in power then can say that they are the example the ANC can follow? No, they can't. People need to own the truth with their own story with all of its complexity. They don't do it. YOU don't do it either John Rawls. You keep denying that the USA has fucking been violent and racist with Puerto Rico, with Guatemala, with Honduras, with the DR, with Panama, etc. It is reality.

Acknowlede that shit NOW. And then there can be moving on and dealing with the defect of corrupt and incompetent shit. Because people are not going to move on while the powerful group benefiting from colonialism and shit stay in denial mode and keeps saying we civilized you savages, we brought enlightenment and freedom and justice and the American way....no they did not, they brought lack of voting rights, massacres, bombs, and cancer and pollution and poverty and desperation and loss of our rights. Once they admit that truth then all can be fixed. While they are in denial it is like a fucking Alcoholic with ten bottles of vodka hidden all over the house and when the family says you got a drinking problem the drunk person says, no I do not. I do not have a drinking problem. I have never drunk from that vodka bottle. They deny fucking reality. Why? because if they admit the problem they got? They have TO TAKE ACTION to change. And since they are unwilling to change because they are attached to their money or their power? They won't do it. Meanwhile, the drinking is causing liver damage and if they don't stop they will die of it. The same as racism and discrimination and imperial violence. They overspend on wars, cops, bribery and corruption and they violate their own RULES. For what? GREED and lack of respect for the rights of other nations, people and land. And it all has serious consequences John Rawls!, and say it. Just say it!! We benefited from your exploitation and by keeping you under the boot for centuries. We were wrong. You were equal human beings with dreams and aspirations and because of greed and ignorance and violence and mistakes you were denied rights. Acknowledge that shit.

That needs to happen with Russia vs Ukraine and every other nation who has been through invasions, trauma and racism and shit....got to acknowledge that FIRST. Then you can sit down and move on and once all people truly accept that the non white people got oppressed, and how that oppression also damaged psychologically the WHITE people too....you can finally move on to reconciliation.

I hate the way you deny the US role and never acknowledge the horror of what they have done to us!

The US is an Empire. Russia is an Empire or has been empire. France, the Netherlands, England, Belgium and the list goes on. What happens to those fucking oppressive Empires? They fall and they then got to deal with the ANGER and HATRED they have bred with their violent, exploitative and racist SHIT. Devil loving behavior they got.

The US gov't policies with Black people for years was TERRIBLE. They got pressure done on them and they had to change. So did South Africa and every other fucked up Empire.

You John, are so skewed in favor of the US empire. WHY? It is the same behavior. Humans are humans. You think the white South Africans are worse than the white Southern KKK racists? They are not. They actually are less violent. Because most of the Afrikaaners really believed in their shitty narrative about allowing the Blacks to vote. It never occurred to them why they were denying the Black South Africans and the coloured South Africans the vote?

Because they were afraid of sharing POWER with them. Simple as that. Scared shitless of losing POWER. Just say that shit and get it over with!

[Pants-of-dog]

Heavily unlikely. Whites discriminated blacks until apartheid ended and after now whites are being discriminated and put all blame for SA current incompetence and corruption. The fact that ANC is stuck back somewhere in the 80s ideologically also doesn't help. This will probably only get worse as economic conditions in SA worsen due to corruption and incompetence.

While I have seen many people claim that white people in SA deal with discrimination, I have never seen any foundation for these claims. Can you provide an example of anti-white discrimination in SA, please?

As for the corruption, that is the norm for recently decolonized countries. Colonial governments such as SA under Apartheid are systemically corrupt: the whole point is to extract wealth from the local land and populace without giving anything in return. It is implausible for any subsequent post colonial government to completely rid itself of this self-serving nature.

[Szabo]

You might be familiar with the "screening hypothesis" in economics, where employers do not have accurate information about which job candidates are actually likely to be good choices. Well, for better or worse, simple racism turns out to be a simple solution to that problem that doesn't cost too much in the economy.

I'm not following you here. How exactly does employing people based on the colour of their skin increase the likelihood of them being more competent in their jobs?

[late]

I just did. Why don't you think about it.

You are trying to justify denying basic human rights, and the inevitable exploitation that comes with that.

[ckaihatsu]

Russia is an Empire or has been empire.

One point -- Russia has never been an empire. If you look at the actual history one will find that it went through a period of nationalist *expansion* and *consolidation*, but never exported finance capital, which is the *definition* of 'imperialism', especially the modern, U.S. kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia#Imperial_Russia

[Tainari88]

One point -- Russia has never been an empire. If you look at the actual history one will find that it went through a period of nationalist *expansion* and *consolidation*, but never exported finance capital, which is the *definition* of 'imperialism', especially the modern, U.S. kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia#Imperial_Russia

Ivan the Terrible and the Tsars were all oligarchical Imperialists in the past. Putin is not a far left man. He never has been. He is a far right dude. That is why Trump loved that asshole. Putin wants the old Soviet Union back but he can't accept that the old dissolved republics are all gone. Maybe he fears the Western nations who are into capital. But he should have concentrated on his own nation's inequalities and the people in Russia who are not doing well at all. That would have kept him busy for the rest of his life. But no....he thinks he can do the same shit that the US does in Latin America. Go in there and take it over so you can expand and so on.

Putin is a far right fascist Chris. No doubt about that. I don't care why he is. He is a far right Fascist.

People are living in denial about a lot of the behavior these fascist types do all over the world. In the US the pro imperialists keep making excuses for the white nationalists and violent types who knew they could get violent on January 6th because they were mostly white dudes who the system worked for and protected for years. If the proud boys, and others were Black far left radicals looking for Trump's head on a plate and shooting and killing cops to get to the congress and trashed McConnell's desk they would have been slaughtered and not arrested and tried.

The USA gov't favors the white supremacists. That is obvious to me.

That it is not obvious to people like @JohnRawls is not surprising. Rawls there has to believe the USA government is superior to any other government and the USA is better and fair and just. Why? Because the Russians were hated in Estonia. All those small nations like Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia were little colonies of Russia for years. He therefore loves the opposition a lot. The USA. Why? Because they have to be the good guys.

He like many political people from Eastern Europe and experiencing the ex Soviet Union style of hiarchy have to think that liberal style capitalism a la Milton Friedman is the answer to the hated label of socialist and communist. He does not get that the Latin American socialists are not imperialists and not oppressive but actually seek social justice for the poor in Latin America and justice for the people being fucked over. Like Martin Luther King, Jr. the Christian socialist, and others. No, he does not get that. Why? Lack of analytical ability on John Rawls part.

He chose to name himself in his screenname. Why? Who was John Rawls in history? The veil of ignorance. Reasonable and rationality. if he knew more about his fucking screenname man he would study the part about EQUALITY and social justice. And stop the bullshit of making excuses for the bad behavior full of social injustice.

Get with it John!!

You think John Rawls was an unknown political philosopher for me? No, dude. I know who he is. You are not following that man's politics at all.

[Tainari88]

While I have seen many people claim that white people in SA deal with discrimination, I have never seen any foundation for these claims. Can you provide an example of anti-white discrimination in SA, please?

As for the corruption, that is the norm for recently decolonized countries. Colonial governments such as SA under Apartheid are systemically corrupt: the whole point is to extract wealth from the local land and populace without giving anything in return. It is implausible for any subsequent post colonial government to completely rid itself of this self-serving nature.

That is correct.

They often point to the chaos of post colonialism. They should read Franz Fanon's great works regarding post colonialism. Like The Wretched of the Earth. They really have no fucking clue of why the post colonies are a basket case for years after the pull-out. Study US history, please. The US was in deep debt, and in deep shit for decades after beating the British back. The British attempted a takeover again. It failed. But the US original colonies were in bad shape for a long time after independence.

Somehow they forgive the problems of the US government but the post-colonial African governments after the pullout and the mess and the violence left behind is criticized. Double standard BULLSHIT.

Again, what a load of bullcrap criticizing fledgling nations facing the same shit the USA did after the British got their defeat. Hypocrites!

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls how does a nation that had apartheid for hundreds of years and excluded the majority of a nation for years and used violence to stay in power then can say that they are the example the ANC can follow? No, they can't. People need to own the truth with their own story with all of its complexity. They don't do it. YOU don't do it either John Rawls. You keep denying that the USA has fucking been violent and racist with Puerto Rico, with Guatemala, with Honduras, with the DR, with Panama, etc. It is reality.

Acknowlede that shit NOW. And then there can be moving on and dealing with the defect of corrupt and incompetent shit. Because people are not going to move on while the powerful group benefiting from colonialism and shit stay in denial mode and keeps saying we civilized you savages, we brought enlightenment and freedom and justice and the American way....no they did not, they brought lack of voting rights, massacres, bombs, and cancer and pollution and poverty and desperation and loss of our rights. Once they admit that truth then all can be fixed. While they are in denial it is like a fucking Alcoholic with ten bottles of vodka hidden all over the house and when the family says you got a drinking problem the drunk person says, no I do not. I do not have a drinking problem. I have never drunk from that vodka bottle. They deny fucking reality. Why? because if they admit the problem they got? They have TO TAKE ACTION to change. And since they are unwilling to change because they are attached to their money or their power? They won't do it. Meanwhile, the drinking is causing liver damage and if they don't stop they will die of it. The same as racism and discrimination and imperial violence. They overspend on wars, cops, bribery and corruption and they violate their own RULES. For what? GREED and lack of respect for the rights of other nations, people and land. And it all has serious consequences John Rawls!, and say it. Just say it!! We benefited from your exploitation and by keeping you under the boot for centuries. We were wrong. You were equal human beings with dreams and aspirations and because of greed and ignorance and violence and mistakes you were denied rights. Acknowledge that shit.

That needs to happen with Russia vs Ukraine and every other nation who has been through invasions, trauma and racism and shit....got to acknowledge that FIRST. Then you can sit down and move on and once all people truly accept that the non white people got oppressed, and how that oppression also damaged psychologically the WHITE people too....you can finally move on to reconciliation.

I hate the way you deny the US role and never acknowledge the horror of what they have done to us!

The US is an Empire. Russia is an Empire or has been empire. France, the Netherlands, England, Belgium and the list goes on. What happens to those fucking oppressive Empires? They fall and they then got to deal with the ANGER and HATRED they have bred with their violent, exploitative and racist SHIT. Devil loving behavior they got.

The US gov't policies with Black people for years was TERRIBLE. They got pressure done on them and they had to change. So did South Africa and every other fucked up Empire.

You John, are so skewed in favor of the US empire. WHY? It is the same behavior. Humans are humans. You think the white South Africans are worse than the white Southern KKK racists? They are not. They actually are less violent. Because most of the Afrikaaners really believed in their shitty narrative about allowing the Blacks to vote. It never occurred to them why they were denying the Black South Africans and the coloured South Africans the vote?

Because they were afraid of sharing POWER with them. Simple as that. Scared shitless of losing POWER. Just say that shit and get it over with!

First of all, wow didn't expect you to go overboard. I will clarify to make it simpler: THE APARTHAID WAS NOT A GOOD SYSTEM AND IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CONDITION EVEN IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME GOOD ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.

Now that I have clarified it then lets continue. I hope this settles the misunderstanding that you might have had with my statement. I didn't defend apartheid. The reason why I mentioned it is because currently it is a fact that SA needs to deal with that it existed. And this is one of the cases where I do agree with you that historic economic exploitation did lead to the whole situation actually since it ended relatively recently. Most forget that it ended in the 90s which 20-25 years ago basically. This explotation system is the cause why a lot of the black South Africans are under educated, have worse economic conditions and so on.

The other reason why it is relevant is because the succeeding ANC abuses the legacy of the apartheid to hide its incompetence and corruption. Right now, for example, there is a problem with electricity and their Eskom utility provider which was basically destroyed by corruption, political mismanagement, policy and state service compliance with corruption and so on. You can watch the latest interview that the leaving CEO did who tried to fix it but couldn't and that is descriptive of the most problems in SA.

Your questions was in regards to white south africans and black south africans coming together. Well, it is unlikely due to the following factors:
1) Apartheid is close in everyones memory.
2) ANC is using apartheid to blame the mistakes that were done under ANC rule after apartheid on the white south africans. It is not a hard to understand concept as a political strategy.
3) Economic situation is sadly deteriorating for both blacks and whites due to the current global and local situation. It kinda piles up be it covid or current energy problems and so on...

I wish I could give a good answer here of "happily ever after" but I just don't see it. Not any time soon probably.

@Pants-of-dog

Most of the things said on the internet about the problem is bullshit. Like farmers getting killed or white people getting hunted, this is just stupid far right American take on it. It does happen from time to time I suppose but it is not that endemic as one might make it sound and most of those deaths are related to general crime or robbery. SA is not a very safe place after all nowadays. So that is the bullshit part out of the way.

The non-bullshit part is that ANC is stuck somewhere 30 years behind ideologically somewhere between a capitalist mindset with communist ideas embedded in between which is sort of weird. Once again, It is hard to comment on this and a local would be much better but this is how one of my SA friends described it. As for blaming the white folks, sure:

Here is Malema, which is an important EFF politician both in regards to ANC and EFF now. There is plenty of his statements over the years and his folks overall. Youtube and google will show plenty.

There are others like Ramaphosa for example who is more directly ANC and important:

White South Africans, mainly those with power in their hands, must realise that particularly young black people are becoming increasingly angry about their "lackadaisical" attitude, President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Thursday evening, during a live interview on 702 and CapeTalk by Xolani Gwala.

In Ramaphosa's view, this can be seen as a justifiable anger, especially among young black professionals who find that, despite obtaining qualifications, they fail to gain access to the jobs market.

Full: https://www.news24.com/fin24/ramaphosa- ... r-20181213

Apartheid is not here anymore and I don't think that it is fair to blame white south africans after 25 years of your own rule for people not getting a job after education is done on whites for some reason. Mostly as I understand, the problem is on a local level though.

[wat0n]

That is correct.

They often point to the chaos of post colonialism. They should read Franz Fanon's great works regarding post colonialism. Like The Wretched of the Earth. They really have no fucking clue of why the post colonies are a basket case for years after the pull-out. Study US history, please. The US was in deep debt, and in deep shit for decades after beating the British back. The British attempted a takeover again. It failed. But the US original colonies were in bad shape for a long time after independence.

Somehow they forgive the problems of the US government but the post-colonial African governments after the pullout and the mess and the violence left behind is criticized. Double standard BULLSHIT.

Again, what a load of bullcrap criticizing fledgling nations facing the same shit the USA did after the British got their defeat. Hypocrites!

This doesn't seem to be applicable to South Africa. The US managed to get its shit together during Washington's second term, but South Africa's governance seems to be getting worse and not better over time if anything (that's also not counting that the US got its independence after a war while the end of Apartheid was largely negotiated within SA). Debating about racism doesn't seem to help with the problem either, the ANC has been in power for almost 30 years now and it's quite clear it has degraded from what it was during Mandela's term - if anything, it seems to be used as a way to distract from the myriad of issues plaguing the country.

If I had to guess, many South Africans in general and whites in particular will eventually emigrate if their government doesn't get its shit together. If so, the racial problem will be solved simply because there won't be too many people around anyway.

[JohnRawls]

That is correct.

They often point to the chaos of post colonialism. They should read Franz Fanon's great works regarding post colonialism. Like The Wretched of the Earth. They really have no fucking clue of why the post colonies are a basket case for years after the pull-out. Study US history, please. The US was in deep debt, and in deep shit for decades after beating the British back. The British attempted a takeover again. It failed. But the US original colonies were in bad shape for a long time after independence.

Somehow they forgive the problems of the US government but the post-colonial African governments after the pullout and the mess and the violence left behind is criticized. Double standard BULLSHIT.

Again, what a load of bullcrap criticizing fledgling nations facing the same shit the USA did after the British got their defeat. Hypocrites!

I also forgot to add but since the previous post was a bit long, I will add it here. I do not fully subscribe to the idea of blaming imperialism/colonialism for every woe of every country which has been colonized. But there is a certain timeframe where that can be used. I usually decide it on country by country basis, for SA I find it an acceptable argument since apartheid ended 25 years ago which is relatively close. But overall this argument is moot and void if the country has been independent already for 40...50...70...100 years or had at least an independent status and ability to self-rule depending on what is the arangement. At some point that stops being an excuse, it should have already been fixed by your own rule that you had for so long.

This is just for future reference. Since we often argue about this.

[Tainari88]

This doesn't seem to be applicable to South Africa. The US managed to get its shit together during Washington's second term, but South Africa's governance seems to be getting worse and not better over time if anything (that's also not counting that the US got its independence after a war while the end of Apartheid was largely negotiated within SA). Debating about racism doesn't seem to help with the problem either, the ANC has been in power for almost 30 years now and it's quite clear it has degraded from what it was during Mandela's term - if anything, it seems to be used as a way to distract from the myriad of issues plaguing the country.

If I had to guess, many South Africans in general and whites in particular will eventually emigrate if their government doesn't get its shit together. If so, the racial problem will be solved simply because there won't be too many people around anyway.

Have you seen the video? A lot of loyalists in the Revolutionary war left. Emigrated. The Treaty of Paris was ratified and signed and this is important for you to understand Wat0n.....respected the boundaries of the agreements and compact with Britain. Did they respect post Civil War laws that gave rights to African freed slaves? No, it was overturned by the Jim Crow laws and the raiders who were cops in the Southern states who did not want to give equal rights to freed Africans. They did not respect Native American treaties either Wat0n. They in fact violated every single one if there was money to be had or land grabs.. They did not behave that way with the agreements that the US government did with the European powers. But the rights of the Blacks and the freed Africans, Native Americans, Chinese laborers, Latin American invasions and takeovers, and the were all VIOLATED and not respected. WHY? Can you answer why the federal US government respected the agreements with the European ex Empires and nations and did not respect the compacts and agreements with the Native Americans for example? I can answer that one for you.

POWER relationships. They only respected power. Raw power. Economic power to take and not respect rights of people they considered inferior and killable. YES KILL. That is barbaric and nasty stuff. Admit that and we have a dialogue and if you don't you are not a man who loves truth. Te gusta mentira en vez de la verdad.

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 what does that have to do with the US establishing a functional government after the revolution?

The ANC did manage to set one up during Mandela. It wasn't perfect, but was able to perform its core functions. The current one however seems to be failing at even the elementary stuff, let alone grownup stuff like addressing race relations.

[Tainari88]

First of all, wow didn't expect you to go overboard. I will clarify to make it simpler: THE APARTHAID WAS NOT A GOOD SYSTEM AND IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CONDITION EVEN IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME GOOD ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.

Now that I have clarified it then lets continue. I hope this settles the misunderstanding that you might have had with my statement. I didn't defend apartheid. The reason why I mentioned it is because currently it is a fact that SA needs to deal with that it existed. And this is one of the cases where I do agree with you that historic economic exploitation did lead to the whole situation actually since it ended relatively recently. Most forget that it ended in the 90s which 20-25 years ago basically. This explotation system is the cause why a lot of the black South Africans are under educated, have worse economic conditions and so on.

The other reason why it is relevant is because the succeeding ANC abuses the legacy of the apartheid to hide its incompetence and corruption. Right now, for example, there is a problem with electricity and their Eskom utility provider which was basically destroyed by corruption, political mismanagement, policy and state service compliance with corruption and so on. You can watch the latest interview that the leaving CEO did who tried to fix it but couldn't and that is descriptive of the most problems in SA.

Your questions was in regards to white south africans and black south africans coming together. Well, it is unlikely due to the following factors:
1) Apartheid is close in everyones memory.
2) ANC is using apartheid to blame the mistakes that were done under ANC rule after apartheid on the white south africans. It is not a hard to understand concept as a political strategy.
3) Economic situation is sadly deteriorating for both blacks and whites due to the current global and local situation. It kinda piles up be it covid or current energy problems and so on...

I wish I could give a good answer here of "happily ever after" but I just don't see it. Not any time soon probably.

@Pants-of-dog

Most of the things said on the internet about the problem is bullshit. Like farmers getting killed or white people getting hunted, this is just stupid far right American take on it. It does happen from time to time I suppose but it is not that endemic as one might make it sound and most of those deaths are related to general crime or robbery. SA is not a very safe place after all nowadays. So that is the bullshit part out of the way.

The non-bullshit part is that ANC is stuck somewhere 30 years behind ideologically somewhere between a capitalist mindset with communist ideas embedded in between which is sort of weird. Once again, It is hard to comment on this and a local would be much better but this is how one of my SA friends described it. As for blaming the white folks, sure:

Here is Malema, which is an important EFF politician both in regards to ANC and EFF now. There is plenty of his statements over the years and his folks overall. Youtube and google will show plenty.

There are others like Ramaphosa for example who is more directly ANC and important:



Full: https://www.news24.com/fin24/ramaphosa- ... r-20181213

Apartheid is not here anymore and I don't think that it is fair to blame white south africans after 25 years of your own rule for people not getting a job after education is done on whites for some reason. Mostly as I understand, the problem is on a local level though.

For me all this is simple economics. Capitalism is the problem with inequality John. A system you endorse. I do not endorse a system where workers do not own anything that they produce and have weak rights and non union rights and no rights. That people live in fear of losing jobs.

I know about white squatter camps.

All that apartheid shit is made up to keep people who are poor from coming together in solidarity.

There can be a lot of solidarity between the same economic groups fighting for dignity, a just wage and decent educations for their kids and good housing options and affordable standards of living.

But no, you got to keep insisting on crony capitalism and imperial corporations using the military and racist infighting between socioeconomic groups to deflect from the failures that are inherent when you got owners and non owners and crime and problems related to lack of investment in THE POOR and the STRUGGLING.

Why don't you fight for these people John? Because you want peace and reconciliation and people working well and no corruption and no dishonesty and crime? You give people rights and you deal with their needs. Their material needs. Running water, affordable energy and all the rest.

As for my style? Of speech? Welcome to Puerto Rico style of confrontation in politics. It is that way. I am not English, Dutch, Estonian. We never go for neutrality or quiet timid expressions. Not our culture. I won't be changing my Puerto Rican style. Don't take it personally.

People who are neutral and boring and have zero passion present in their words? Are not respected in Puerto Rican politics. For us lack of emotional content is not acceptable. That is my culture John.

Now you know who we are. If you went to a Latin American political forum included one from Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica and the rest of Latin America including Brazil? I am calm, cool and collected compared to them.

Too bad you can't debate in Spanish or Italian or Portuguese. Because if you could? You would have learned that a long long time ago.

Lol.

[JohnRawls]

For me all this is simple economics. Capitalism is the problem with inequality John. A system you endorse. I do not endorse a system where workers do not own anything that they produce and have weak rights and non union rights and no rights. That people live in fear of losing jobs.

I know about white squatter camps.

All that apartheid shit is made up to keep people who are poor from coming together in solidarity.

There can be a lot of solidarity between the same economic groups fighting for dignity, a just wage and decent educations for their kids and good housing options and affordable standards of living.

But no, you got to keep insisting on crony capitalism and imperial corporations using the military and racist infighting between socioeconomic groups to deflect from the failures that are inherent when you got owners and non owners and crime and problems related to lack of investment in THE POOR and the STRUGGLING.

Why don't you fight for these people John? Because you want peace and reconciliation and people working well and no corruption and no dishonesty and crime? You give people rights and you deal with their needs. Their material needs. Running water, affordable energy and all the rest.

As for my style? Of speech? Welcome to Puerto Rico style of confrontation in politics. It is that way. I am not English, Dutch, Estonian. We never go for neutrality or quiet timid expressions. Not our culture. I won't be changing my Puerto Rican style. Don't take it personally.

People who are neutral and boring and have zero passion present in their words? Are not respected in Puerto Rican politics. For us lack of emotional content is not acceptable. That is my culture John.

Now you know who we are. If you went to a Latin American political forum included one from Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica and the rest of Latin America including Brazil? I am calm, cool and collected compared to them.

Too bad you can't debate in Spanish or Italian or Portuguese. Because if you could? You would have learned that a long long time ago.

Lol.

I will disagree with you. Capitalism is the best system for now not because it is perfect but because even as flawed it is, it leads to far better outcomes than the alternatives be it communism, feudalism, tribalism and so on. If you can provide a better workable alternative I will listen.

Trade Unions being shit is just an American thing or Americas thing. They are pretty strong here in Europe, so not sure how it is related to just capitalism. Capitalism by itself does not disallow social programs also. So a mix of capitalism with social programs seems to be the best approach because there is no other better alternative outcome wise.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88 what does that have to do with the US establishing a functional government after the revolution?

The ANC did manage to set one up during Mandela. It wasn't perfect, but was able to perform its core functions. The current one however seems to be failing at even the elementary stuff, let alone grownup stuff like addressing race relations.

Mandela was a very intelligent and effective leader. When did these new issues of one woman and one man emerge? Very recently.

Mandela (who's biography I read thoroughly) was not foolish in his realism. He knew this would be a very very hard row to hoe.

The whites have the burden of having to be HONEST. And stop avoiding what the elephant in the room is for the South Africans from the old Apartheid system who are black have experienced.

Only really brave, mature and intelligent people who really do believe in equality between all peoples will acknowledge the damage done and come up with solutions that incorporate friendly, humane and respectful of all groups human rights.

So far the White South Africans have failed to get to that stage of maturity. Because if they don't? They will be defenseless from attacks of the Black South Africans who now wield power over their lives. And their property. Unless they get to the point of true acknowledgement and do the hard hard work of being courageous and facing the problems and willing to work very hard alongside their Black brothers and sisters and rebuild the nation TOGETHER with true dedication to democratic ideals? The violence and problems will drag on...and the land they loved for centuries and whom their ancestors live on? Will be bathed in blood until they do.