[Pants-of-dog]

While I applaud white South Africans for taking part in this dialogue, I am unsure how effective these discussions are.

In the past, many of these discussions are less than useful. Many white people do not understand how systemic racism works or how whiteness is constructed, and so these discussions end up being educational seminars for white people. Often feelings of guilt or of being unjustly accused of racism end up being the dominant theme of the ensuing discussion.

And in the end, non-whites end up doing almost all the work of dismantling racism.

[Tainari88]

While I applaud white South Africans for taking part in this dialogue, I am unsure how effective these discussions are.

In the past, many of these discussions are less than useful. Many white people do not understand how systemic racism works or how whiteness is constructed, and so these discussions end up being educational seminars for white people. Often feelings of guilt or of being unjustly accused of racism end up being the dominant theme of the ensuing discussion.

And in the end, non-whites end up doing almost all the work of dismantling racism.

I think you are absolutely right. The whites usually really don't get it Pants. The work has to be done by the ones most affected by racism and the lack of economic and social opportunities. But, the interesting thing is that with the majority of black South Africans being able to vote in a nation full of Black South Africans? They can shape their own society but be very very strategic about how to do so without having another Cold War intervention from the anti-socialist USA and the anti-Western capitalist PRC or any other big dog on the block. They created the Unaligned group for that purpose. But, it is all about economics for our nations. Who wants what from us? And the local sellouts and the local elites and the lower classes falling for the divide and conquer bullshit.

I think that is why the original movement for the Unaligned Nations in the UN should be considered. A lot of the nations in Africa and in Latin America and Asia that are not influenced by either China or Japan just create their own third column of solidarity. And push as a group that is sick and tired of being manipulated by the superpowers whether those are the Europeans or the Americans or the Chinese. Just go and cooperate outside of the ideological tug of wars and these nations with crime, instability, poverty, and chaos all have a lot in common. Being under some outside influence manipulated from afar by some powerful players.

That is interesting.

The dismantling of racism has to be done by the ones who understand what that is like. The whites really do not. Unless they are like that one radical white woman from South Africa. And she is a far Leftist. I am not surprised she understands really well. You have to do that in order to be of that ideological political stance.

[JohnRawls]

The article seems to say that Apartheid left a legacy of systemic problems that are still excluding non-whites.

It also seems to say that the white people who inherited power from the elite during the Apartheid era are not really doing much to change things, which makes sense. People who became powerful because of the status quo are reluctant to change that status quo.

And it also makes sense that educated non-whites are annoyed at this lack of action.

It has been 25 years more or less. The country has been under the rule of the ANC basically for that time. I would understand an argument a black person being excluded from education argument or social programs and so on but the subject is basically a South Africa University graduate being unable to find work in mass. This is a problem of mass unemployment that SA government should be responsible for fixing not a problem of some remains from apartheid not hiring blacks university candidates. This problem exists in the West also but we don't blame apartheid or whatever for it. It is a social mobility question and unemployment question that governments are directly responsible for.

[ckaihatsu]

Sure.

The pandemic reminded us some jobs are essential for keeping society functioning and most people alive. One would think they are thus fulfilling in their own way.

You're using a convoluted *tone* here that's hard to read -- do *you* think that such 'essential workers' *are* socially essential, or not -- ? You're sounding *disparaging*, as if to say that such important social roles are being done in an 'ad hoc' kind of way.

Are you questioning the *social value* of essential workers by making their role(s) sound *ambiguous* -- ?

AI is not replacing all jobs anytime soon so working will still be necessary, but it can already replace postmodern paper mills.

https://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

As a *political person* I'm more interested in the *end results* of whatever 'labor' is being done in society, with or without AI assistance.

Means-and-ends.

[Tainari88]

It has been 25 years more or less. The country has been under the rule of the ANC basically for that time. I would understand an argument a black person being excluded from education argument or social programs and so on but the subject is basically a South Africa University graduate being unable to find work in mass. This is a problem of mass unemployment that SA government should be responsible for fixing not a problem of some remains from apartheid not hiring blacks university candidates. This problem exists in the West also but we don't blame apartheid or whatever for it. It is a social mobility question and unemployment question that governments are directly responsible for.

You really don't get it John.

I am not surprised. Mexico is full of Mexicans. From the president to the street sweeper. South Africa is diverse but the majority of the people there are Black South Africans.

Mexico can't find work for its engineers, its doctors, and its professionals that pay enough for a middle-class lifestyle. I am talking about people who speak Spanish, English, and Mayan, and have degrees from La Universidad Autonoma del Yucatán or otherwise known as La UADY. They have good study habits and are skilled to a very high level. They make if they are lucky $10 Euros an hour. Most make $4.

Why do the professionals in Mexico or in South Africa have to go through years of unemployment or if they are employed have to accept abysmally low salaries. Why? Because we are set up as extraction countries. By the international banking and investment class of people and their international organizations and lobby groups. They pay off all the credit and economic people to do their bidding. Since they are the ones dictating international economic frameworks like the International Monetary Fund, and the banking systems? The extraction only countries GET NOTHING.

Here if I am Mexican and take out a credit card? You know what my interest rate is? 79%. While if I get a credit card in Denver Colorado I might pay maybe 13% to 17%. I have a nearly 800 credit rating which is super excellent. I might negotiate to a 11% with much favorable terms. But if I am Mexican in nationality with a professional degree in Mexico? I will be stuck with enormous interest rates, unfavorable terms, and absolute usury.

I can sit here and explain it to you all day. You don't get it because I looked up Estonia, it is a nation with a mixed economy and it is very stable and part of the EU. It has enormous advantages because of it. The Third World nations of Africa and Latin America are slated for being poor, remaining in debt servitude, and blocked from progress. No matter what the fuck the local leaders want. It is economic imprisonment. Slavery was economic imprisonment too. Those people could not be liberated because production would go down. Profit would go down. Banks were the ones in charge of the sale and purchase of slaves. Slave owners owed banks for buying the labor. Banks control everything and everybody.

Jefferson knew that long ago. But I do not know why white naive people who never had to cope with running our nations can't understand how bad that shit is!

[wat0n]

You're using a convoluted *tone* here that's hard to read -- do *you* think that such 'essential workers' *are* socially essential, or not -- ? You're sounding *disparaging*, as if to say that such important social roles are being done in an 'ad hoc' kind of way.

Are you questioning the *social value* of essential workers by making their role(s) sound *ambiguous* -- ?

No. What I'm saying is that working in socially valuable jobs can and indeed does give plenty of those workers fulfillment.

As a *political person* I'm more interested in the *end results* of whatever 'labor' is being done in society, with or without AI assistance.

Means-and-ends.

Sure. So tell me, what's the end result of postmodern paper mills? What's their contribution when much of that writing is unreadable?

[Pants-of-dog]

It has been 25 years more or less. The country has been under the rule of the ANC basically for that time. I would understand an argument a black person being excluded from education argument or social programs and so on but the subject is basically a South Africa University graduate being unable to find work in mass. This is a problem of mass unemployment that SA government should be responsible for fixing not a problem of some remains from apartheid not hiring blacks university candidates. This problem exists in the West also but we don't blame apartheid or whatever for it. It is a social mobility question and unemployment question that governments are directly responsible for.

This seems hard to believe.

It would be very difficult for the ANC to successfully remove all aspects of systemic racism from Apartheid in only 25 years. I previously mentioned how good schools are almost exclusively in white neighbourhoods. Unless this has changed, this provides a real geographic barrier for non-whites.

To simply dismiss these legacies and argue that it merely a question of social mobility seems like a reductionist dismissal of recent history.

[ckaihatsu]

Sure. So tell me, what's the end result of postmodern paper mills? What's their contribution when much of that writing is unreadable?

No contention.

Here are my worldviews -- for myself / the-individual, and for social production:


Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

[6] Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show

[JohnRawls]

This seems hard to believe.

It would be very difficult for the ANC to successfully remove all aspects of systemic racism from Apartheid in only 25 years. I previously mentioned how good schools are almost exclusively in white neighbourhoods. Unless this has changed, this provides a real geographic barrier for non-whites.

To simply dismiss these legacies and argue that it merely a question of social mobility seems like a reductionist dismissal of recent history.

The proportion of responsibility for this has shifted already. If during apartheid that would be 90% if not 99% apartheid then now it is probably like 10% apartheid legacy and 90% government not solving economic problems.

[wat0n]

God forbid one may hold current leadership accountable for its performance, like you are doing with regards to the ANC's management of the South African state, @JohnRawls. We all know only the dead and maybe retirees can be ever held accountable for anything.

[Pants-of-dog]

The proportion of responsibility for this has shifted already. If during apartheid that would be 90% if not 99% apartheid then now it is probably like 10% apartheid legacy and 90% government not solving economic problems.

How do you figure that?

That would suggest that 90% of the systemic racism left over from Apartheid has been resolved. This seems wildly optimistic, especially since the ANC has been hampered by economic problems all this time.

[JohnRawls]

How do you figure that?

That would suggest that 90% of the systemic racism left over from Apartheid has been resolved. This seems wildly optimistic, especially since the ANC has been hampered by economic problems all this time.

The apartheid laws are gone and ANC has been in charge of the said universities and economy for 25 years. There is no institutional descrimination like in the apartheid times which is legal discrimination. Their might be social descrimination left but even that was tackled by legal means to a certain degree by now. Some might remain but it is doubtful that it exists on mass.

[Pants-of-dog]

The apartheid laws are gone and ANC has been in charge of the said universities and economy for 25 years.

Yes, you mentioned that more than once, I believe.

25 years is not very long to address systemic problems. Here in North America, overt legal racism has been illegal far longer than the last 25 years, and we are only starting to address systemic racism.

For a developing country with economic problems to have resolved these problems in far less time than developed countries with more resources seems implausible.

[wat0n]

How do you figure that?

That would suggest that 90% of the systemic racism left over from Apartheid has been resolved. This seems wildly optimistic, especially since the ANC has been hampered by economic problems all this time.

You do realize those economic problems are, to a large degree, the ANC's own making... Right?

[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that my argument is no less valid no matter who is supposedly to blame for the lack of action.

[Tainari88]

You do realize those economic problems are, to a large degree, the ANC's own making... Right?

You do realize that you are a Capo from the Nazi period right?

But you are here in this thread talking about South African issues like some troll instead of working on it like a person interested in learning something?

You do realize that no one is going to be fooled by your tactics?

I think you need to listen to what you think is ok to do to other people if they disagree with your constant trolling...

Ok Wat0n, hear this video. Let us blame the Jews for letting the Germans put them in a train to a camp. It was their fault. Why didn't they get a rifle and kill the Nazis? Those laws did not affect them.

If they allowed themselves to be gassed, shot and killed en masse? They are responsible not the German Nazis.

They should have gotten the land in Israel before Hitler came around. Why did they wait around?

Your damn trolly bullshit opinions sound that bad Wat0n.

why are you so cold towards the South Africans and their government and you do not feel the same way about some Jewish people from Chile? You talk a lot of shit against Allende. But you never mention the torture Pinochet did in Chile. You approve.

See how you act you foolish poster.

[wat0n]

Please note that my argument is no less valid no matter who is supposedly to blame for the lack of action.

But it's relevant, because in that case the ANC can be held responsible for SA's situation like @JohnRawls is doing.

How responsible? One would need far more info than has been shared in the thread to figure out, but when a government is having trouble to make sure the energy grid works normally the dysfunction goes deep and has little to do with systemic racism or whatever. In fact, such government can't set up a system of anything and of course can't solve more complex issues like race relations.

@Tainari88 seems like you have nothing to add. I haven't said anything about Pinochet because I haven't seen anyone defending his crimes, so I don't think it's necessary to restate what is well-known. A lesser known thing is that there were some cases of disastrous economic policy, but that is probably best left for another thread. The Capo analogy is even dumber and unworthy of consideration.

Neither is like Cuba, there are some who defend and excuse the crimes committed by the regime. A regime that still exists, unlike Pinochet who's been dead for over 16 years and Hitler who's been dead for 78 years. Whatever problems Chile or Germany may have are for their current leadership to address.

Oh right, but to you torture and dictatorship today are necessary evils because there used to be another dictatorship 65 years ago, just like the fact that there used to be Apartheid until 29 years ago means the ANC gets a pass for being incompetent and corrupt as much as it likes (but only if they're socialists)

[Pants-of-dog]

We should be careful to differentiate between the claim that the ANC has been unable to resolve the problems caused by systemic racism, and the claim that the ANC is to blame because they supposedly cannot get their economic affairs in order.

The first seems like a plausible argument looking at causal chains as limited by socio-economic context, while the latter seems like an attempt to disparage a specific party.

[wat0n]

We should be careful to differentiate between the claim that the ANC has been unable to resolve the problems caused by systemic racism, and the claim that the ANC is to blame because they supposedly cannot get their economic affairs in order.

The first seems like a plausible argument looking at causal chains as limited by socio-economic context, while the latter seems like an attempt to disparage a specific party.

Can you do the former without doing the latter?

Yes, you can always just take the line that "well, we'll be poorer but society be fair". But is this something that can be sustained long term?

[Pants-of-dog]

If the argument is that the ANC should be blamed because they have not resolved the ongoing systemic racism created by Apartheid policies, and this is because they have not somehow (against all odds and despite historical context) solved their economic problems, then note that this argument agrees with mine.

It simply adds a way to blame someone.