[Siberian Fox]

Six men arrested in new Indian 'bus rape'

Police in India have arrested six men after they allegedly gang-raped a woman on a bus, just weeks after a similar attack shocked the nation.

The latest assault is said to have taken place in the northern state of Punjab. The police are searching for a seventh suspected attacker.

[...]

Police officials say that the latest victim was a 29-year-old woman.

She is believed to have been travelling on a bus back to her village on Friday night.

The driver and conductor allegedly refused to stop at her village, instead taking her to a desolate location not far from the city of Amritsar.

The two men are then believed to have been joined by five others and taken turns raping the woman throughout the night.

The victim was then dropped off near her village, where she was able to tell her relatives about the attack.

The extent of the woman's injuries were not immediately known.

India doesn't appear to have been doing much lately to change its reputation as the worst country in the G20 to be a woman.

[The Clockwork Rat]

In my opinion, the only way anything would really change such an endemic, rape-accepting culture would be a huge feminist movement on the scale we haven't seen since Gandhi. I can't see anything happening from the top-down because there's no pressure from anywhere else.

[Bridgeburner]

Why all these high expectations and comparisons (of India) against developed countries - scale up any population to 1.2 billion people, factor in high poverty, low levels of education and reported rapes will outweigh that of other countries. Add to this a massive level of IT/communications market presence, free media (both not usually found in developing countries to such a degree) will all result in forwarding the (imo false) belief that India is hazardous or unsafe for women - moreso than other nations.

According to this list

Per-capita reported rape stats of India per 100,000 individuals are low - 1.8 - below that of UK, Australia, Germany, Norway, Russia, etc.

Of course, this is precisely the kind of ammunition a societally destructive feminist movement needs, let us hope Indian feminists don't call for an obliteration of Indian society to fulfil some of their pathological misandric dreams.

[fuser]

rape-accepting culture

What does that even mean? If you are talking about "rape" cases only, India is one of the safest place, more safe than UK or USA (after adding estimated unreported incidents.) But then, these cases are easily sensationalized by a media for shock purposes which lacks the spine to address more structural problems.

And indeed India does need a major feminist insurrection but not because of these rape cases, the problems are more deep rooted rather than a petty law & order problem.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Bridgeburner, Whose high expectations are you referring to?

Also, what are you trying to say by highlighting "reported" rapes? To me that sounds like you're drawing attention to the scale of the problem.

What does that even mean? If you are talking about "rape" cases only, India is one of the safest place, more safe than UK or USA (after adding estimated unreported incidents.) But then, these cases are easily sensationalized by a media for shock purposes which lacks the spine to address more structural problems.

Forgive me, the sensationalism is overwhelming my dulled critical senses.

[Bridgeburner]

Bridgeburner, Whose high expectations are you referring to?

Mostly the liberal media, your claim of rape culture is probably derived straight from there. To a lesser extent, opinions on the web/forums, I seem to have lashed out at everyone.

Also, what are you trying to say by highlighting "reported" rapes? To me that sounds like you're drawing attention to the scale of the problem.

Unreported rapes are an issue, but it is my opinion that even were they to be factored in, I do not believe that even then statistical credence could be given to the claims that India is a country hostile to women (moreso than aforementioned countries in earlier posts) even if we double the figure, the 3.8 incidents per 100,000 is significantly lower than a large proportion of Western countries, not to mention (more comparable) developing countries.

[slybaldguy]

This kind of thing would never have occured under the British Raj.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I'll defer to fuser on this topic.

[Rei Murasame]

Of course, this is precisely the kind of ammunition a societally destructive feminist movement needs, let us hope Indian feminists don't call for an obliteration of Indian society to fulfil some of their pathological misandric dreams.

Which India are you really hoping will be preserved? The 'Victorian' fake and hypocritical India of the British Raj, or the actually real India designed by Indians and subject to change by Indians?

[fuser]

Indian women were not free from patriarchal bondages in any sense in pre British era, any genuine feminist movement will have to defy both liberal hegemony and cultural conservatism.

[Rei Murasame]

Well, that is why I added 'subject to change by Indians'. Merely bringing back the pre-British era alone, wouldn't fix anything of course.

[Bridgeburner]

Which India are you really hoping will be preserved? The 'Victorian' fake and hypocritical India of the British Raj, or the actually real India designed by Indians and subject to change by Indians?

The "real" India run by the corrupt-to-the core political cadre inheriting their mandate from the quasi-British Nehruvian dynasty? The importation of Western values and suppression/rejection of ethnic nationalism by the Indian intelligentsia is despicable. The Victorian India never ended - Indian leaders just underwent pigment change.

The facts contradict the feminist narrative that India is hostile to women or that radical change is necessary.

[AuContraireVoltaire]

In my opinion, the only way anything would really change such an endemic, rape-accepting culture would be a huge feminist movement on the scale we haven't seen since Gandhi. I can't see anything happening from the top-down because there's no pressure from anywhere else.

Be very careful to not fall into the trap in believing that sexual violence against women is unique to the culture of India. The rapes in India are not a cultural problem unique to the subcontinent as many media outlets are trying to assert.
Sexual violence is endemic across a multitude of diverse nations world-wide and illustrates an innately human defect (or adaptation if you believe some anthropologists and psychologists) that masquerades as some kind of cultural pathogen, when in fact the problem is pan-cultural.
Regardless of a society's dominant religion, mores, values, physical (for lack of a better word to replace the erroneous "science" of the term 'race') identity. Attitudes concerning women are largely primeval - mostly unconscious - and subject, in large part, to evolutionary psychology.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Unfortunately, I did indeed fall into that trap. I'm keeping my mouth shut - as it were - at least until I'm better informed.

[Rei Murasame]

The "real" India run by the corrupt-to-the core political cadre inheriting their mandate from the quasi-British Nehruvian dynasty?

Well, you just said it, clearly that is not yet an India run for India. One day it might be.

The importation of Western values and suppression/rejection of ethnic nationalism by the Indian intelligentsia is despicable.

Has the Indian intelligentsia really rejected ethnic nationalism? The politicians may have in practise rejected it, but the intelligentsia as far as I am aware have not really done so.

The facts contradict the feminist narrative that India is hostile to women or that radical change is necessary.

Well, I don't agree that India is 'more hostile' to women that anywhere else in particular, but we both seem to agree that radical change is necessary, since we are both complaining about something, right?

[Far-Right Sage]

Well, the Indian government is a liberal regime little better than any other regime of this nature. It is run by Indians in the sense that Italy is run by Italians and Japan is run by Japanese, but it is not run in any sense of the word for any of these aforementioned population groups in their own home countries which is part and parcel to the shameful disgrace that is modern liberalism. It makes an effective collaborationist force of a native elite and in so doing murders a tiny portion of the national soul in the process. Even in the sense of being run by anyone, it is if anything a power sharing agreement between this domestic collaborationist front and the foreign bankers they answer to who are as much Indians as they are patriots of their respective homelands.

India can without a shadow of a doubt be great again - Any nation has that potential. Unless the spark begins there however, it will probably have to come in the context of a wider global awakening and realization of pan-nationalist discontent with the financial terrorists and parasites which have hijacked entire societies and tried with every ounce of energy to suck the life and dreams of peoples everywhere as the skulking rat of lore draws milk from a baby's breath while it still lies in the crib. These rats in human form have for too long been in our collective cribs. Where is the cyanide?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

If you are talking about "rape" cases only, India is one of the safest place, more safe than UK or USA (after adding estimated unreported incidents.) But then, these cases are easily sensationalized by a media for shock purposes which lacks the spine to address more structural problems.

Statistics for these countries are not comparable. For India, the government's report on crime (2011) uses a definition for rape, as defined in Section 375 IPC:

Central Government Act Section 375 in The Indian Penal Code, 1860 375.
Rape.-- A man is said to commit" rape" who, except in the case hereinafter excepted, has sexual intercourse with a woman under circumstances falling under any of the six following descriptions:- First.- Against her will. Secondly.- Without her consent. Thirdly.- With her consent, when her consent has been obtained by putting her or any person in whom she is interested in fear of death or of hurt. Fourthly.- With her consent, when the man knows that he is not her husband, and that her consent is given because she believes that he is another man to whom she is or believes herself to be lawfully married. Fifthly.- With her consent, when, at the time of giving such consent, by reason of unsoundness of mind or intoxication or the administration by him personally or through another of any stupefying or unwholesome substance, she is unable to understand the nature and consequences of that to which she gives consent. Sixthly.- With or without her consent, when she is under sixteen years of age.
Explanation.- Penetration is sufficient to constitute the sexual intercourse necessary to the offence of rape.
Exception.- Sexual intercourse by a man with his own wife, the wife not being under fifteen years of age, is not rape.

There are 2 things to note:
1) The exception (last sentence) to marital rape for females over the age of 15 has only been scrapped in 2012. These rapes will therefore not show up in Indian rape statistics up to 2012 while they will be included in the US and the UK.
2) Penetration (second to last sentence) only refers to "penile penetration into vagina", while in the UK and especially the US the definition of rape is much wider (see below).

US (Federal Law):

Current through Pub. L. 112-238. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
(a) Rape.— Any person subject to this chapter who commits a sexual act upon another person by—
(1) using unlawful force against that other person;
(2) using force causing or likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to any person;
(3) threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, grievous bodily harm, or kidnapping;
(4) first rendering that other person unconscious; or
(5) administering to that other person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or consent of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairing the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct;
is guilty of rape and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

[...]

(g) Definitions.— In this section:
(1) Sexual act.— The term “sexual act” means—
(A) contact between the penis and the vulva or anus or mouth, and for purposes of this subparagraph contact involving the penis occurs upon penetration, however slight; or
(B) the penetration, however slight, of the vulva or anus or mouth, of another by any part of the body or by any object, with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, or degrade any person or to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person.

UK:

Rape(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

If you use a sufficiently narrow definition, your statistics will always look quite nice, but it's not possible to conclude that India is one of the safest places when it comes to rape. For what it's worth, it is definitely not a safe place for children when it comes to sexual abuse:

Major findings:
1. 53.22% children reported having faced one or more forms of sexual abuse.
2. Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Bihar and Delhi reported the highest percentage of sexual abuse among both boys and girls.
3. 21.90% child respondents reported facing severe forms of sexual abuse and 50.76% other forms of sexual abuse.
4. Out of the child respondents, 5.69% reported being sexually assaulted.
5. Children in Assam, Andhra Pradesh, Bihar and Delhi reported the highest incidence of sexual assault.
6. Children on street, children at work and children in institutional care reported the highest incidence of sexual assault.
7. 50% abuses are persons known to the child or in a position of trust and responsibility.
8. Most children did not report the matter to anyone.

UK for comparison:

• As Table 1 shows, 0.5 per cent of under 11s, 4.8 per cent of 11 to 17s and 11.3 per cent of 18–24s had reported contact sexual abuse as defined by the criminal law at some point in childhood.
• 65.9 per cent of the contact sexual abuse reported by children and young people (0-17s) was perpetrated by other children and young people under the age of 18.
• 1.2 per cent of under 11s, 16.5 per cent of 11–17s and 24.1 per cent of 18–24s had experienced sexual abuse including non contact offences, by an adult or by a peer at some point in childhood.

[fuser]

Kaiser, you are missing the point. Of course India is one of the worse places to be a women or child right now and far behind developed countries and many developing and underdeveloped countries, there's no denying that. But the point was that media by "exclusively" looking for brutal rape cases only (not that it should be ignored) for basically "shock" purposes and portraying India as place where rapes have gone viral or its a rape accepting culture will serve no purpose of Indian women as by this way they don't even try to touch core issues.

And about your digging up of statistics, thank you but I am aware of it as I mentioned adding 'non reported incidents', the '1.8' per thousand number for India is indeed very low and I have seen estimates (using American definition and estimating unreported incidents) ranging from 10 to 50 but frankly these are quite irrelevant here.

[Far-Right Sage]

In this instance I agree with Fuser.

Stating that India is home and cradle to some "rape-accepting culture" that has been whipped up in their imagination is essentially just a derogatory propaganda line that seeks to blame Indian culture with zero class and social analysis at all, as if economic disparities and a fraudulent political system which maintains little capacity for social justice is somehow an inherent Indian problem, when such illnesses plague the whole of the developing world as well as the rest of the earth. Many originate in the West.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

fuser, I have no desire to portrait India as particularly bad with respect to rape, but I also cannot agree that India is a particular safe place compared to the UK and the US. These (not comparable) rape statistics are quoted all over the place, in Indian and Western newspapers alike. And I'm not referring to the lack of reporting in either country (which is always difficult to estimate) but to the difference in definitions. India is basing its crime statistics on an extremely narrow definition of rape while the US has a unusually wide definition which automatically leads to a much higher rate in the US. As far as I can tell, it's not even possible to get the correct data from the Indian government's crime report since all other cases of rape are lumped into the category 'other crimes'.

The current focus on India by the (western) media has a lot to do with the demonstrations and outrage in India in my opinion.