[Archived: Special Debates] PoFo debates 2004 - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Assorted documents and images.
User avatar
By STA
#370076
That would be great since the differ on just about EVERY issue, but the best debate IMO would be Socialists vs Libertarians seeing as how both of them have such good teams (after the liberals, of course).
By Ixa
#370144
I think we need someone like Gothmog or Maxim to be a part of the socialist team, or some other clear-headed and mature member. No offence is intentional, and I shall therefore avoid identifying any particular member, but I do not think that certain members of the present socialist team have a satisfactory understanding of either socialism or libertarianism. I think that but half the members of that team are capable of debating libertarianism and socialism with clear-headed, intelligent and mature members, like Smash the State for example, who have some sort of understanding of what they're talking about. I repeat that I do not intend to offend anyone, but in my opinion this must be said, for it is most desirable, above all other things, to have able teammates to represent what is the view of many members here - the socialist view - and not humiliate all the socialists here by being miserable failures, which is likely to be the case. I would bet one hundred dollars that the socialists will lose; that, or two members will be ever silent throughout the debate. I for one want the socialist team to be made up of (a) real socialists and (b) people who understand socialism and the ideologies of those whom they are debating with.

Second, what is the point of socialism versus Marxism debate, when (a) Marxists are socialists, and (b) one of the persons on the socialist team is a Marxist (and therefore you can't say that it is a debate between non-Marxist socialists and Marxist socialists - Comrade Socialist-Blue-Gonzo very much represents the beliefs of Marxist-Leninists).

Finally, what I should like to see most of all: a grand debate between not just the non-Marxist socialists, and not just the libertarian capitalists, but what is simpler, namely, a debate between people representing anti-capitalism, and people representing pro-capitalism. You would have Platonic ideologues debating on both sides, and you would have non-Marxist socialists among Marxist-Socialists arguing against those who fall under the libertarian and conservative categories but represent, more simply, just capitalism. I have never seen a formal debate on this subject on an internet forum before. The teams, of course, would have to be somewhat larger, to accomodate people who represent several modes of anti-capitalist thinking and pro-capitalist thinking.
Last edited by Ixa on 28 Jun 2004 17:24, edited 1 time in total.
By Seán Himmelb(L)au
#370154
BTW, this is not paranoia, merely assertive assumption.

*examines stab wound in back* Ow, that hurt, Ix.

Touché, my friend.
User avatar
By TROI
#370155
Cheers?

one of the persons on the socialist team is a Marxist (and therefore you can't say that it is a debate between non-Marxist socialists and Marxist socialists - Comrade Socialist-Blue-Gonzo very much represents the beliefs of Marxist-Leninists).


SBG is not on the socialists team and me and Adrien are Marxists but also socialists.

I imagien that we may have different views as to how communism can be achieved though.

Think of it as more of a marxist B team I spose.
User avatar
By Adrien
#370219
When Maxim, who is a judge, announced on the Socialism Forum that I would lead the Socialist team, Boris, and he was more than right by doing so, found that situation perplexing, because it is true that I am a member of the French Communist Party, and that I classify myself as a "Communist".

However, the Socialist team must not be confused with a Social-Democrat team. During the debates, we will propose a different view on Socialism as a society and social system of its own, and consequently a different view on today's system and how to work with it and within it. Personnally, that rejoins my vision of Communism and the ideas I defend within the PCF. Oh and you can be Marxist while thinking that way.

If our fellow forum go-ers want to learn more about it, we explained it a bit better in the Socialism forum.

:)
By Seán Himmelb(L)au
#370236
It seems like the socialist team are now wondering exactly who you were referring to, so please tell us Ixabert. If you wish to make allegations, please make them clear so the problem can be resolved.

Also, even though this is a different message communicated to you by Adrien, I believe that our view of socialism does not neccessarily mean or fall directly into the confines of Marxism.
User avatar
By Adrien
#370243
No of course, everybody can see "noon at its door" as we say in French, every Socialist can find or not something he or she agrees with in Marxism, I indeed just meant that the Marxist stance on the evolution of Human societies is compatible with Socialism as our team will put it forward.
By Seán Himmelb(L)au
#370260
Yah, okay, I just wanted to clarify that for our dedicated readers. :p
By Boris
#370366
Wow, I missed this little discussion...

I assume when Ixbert is talking of the two worthless people, thats you and me himmelbau.

Arn't these the kind of personal attacks that Ixbert always brings up in the Basement to get someone banned?

By the way, My views don't conform with the oppressive stalinist view that you hold. I believe in the individual, but I also believe in society, and a good society. Socialism has just about always been my ideology. I am not an extremly idealistic person, I have never been. I realize that capitalism is like a virus, it corrupts people and those people keep trying to bring down the socialist and leninist systems. Thats one of the reasons when I cross over to the marxist and communist debates, I take the position of trotskism.

Its like the forbidden apple tree in the garden of eden. With that tree sitting there, tantalizing you, you always have that thought in your mind about it. So why not just cut down the tree? Just like destroying the more evil capitalism and having just a socialist society that would eventually be free of corruptness and greed.

I don't really care, But I am however, ready for the debate.
User avatar
By Vivisekt
#370369
Boris wrote:Just like destroying the more evil capitalism and having just a socialist society that would eventually be free of corruptness and greed.


You may want to avoid using this line of reasoning in the debate, Boris. There can be corruption without money, and there can be greed without capitalism.
By Seán Himmelb(L)au
#370445
Well, is Ixabert going to tell us who in the Socialist team he finds so innappropriate?
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#370552
If Ixabert finds the current socialist team so lacking, why didn't he offer to step up to the plate?
User avatar
By STA
#370553
cause it is easier to attack than it is to defend.
By Boris
#370559
Vivisekt wrote:
Boris wrote:Just like destroying the more evil capitalism and having just a socialist society that would eventually be free of corruptness and greed withen the economic system.


You may want to avoid using this line of reasoning in the debate, Boris. There can be corruption without money, and there can be greed without capitalism.


I wasn't using that in the debate...

I was using that in a hypothetical way to argue for trotskyism...Which I am not a devout follower of, thus, the weak debate on that side.

What I am saying though, is that after the economic differences have been put aside, and everyone has the chance to reach their full potential, Society can set aside the class warfare bullcrap and purely be based on individual and the creations of individuals.

Of coarse there will always be greed. Not just for wealth or property, but for social status, and pride to name two. Thats why I am Socialist, Idealism should be not as strong as Communism, but to work from something that works and is a plausable system not just discarded as " stepping stone that doesnt have to work well we are talking about the future" Without the present there would be no future.
User avatar
By TROI
#370640
You are a non-communist Trotskyist?
By Ixa
#370661
Daovonnaex wrote:If Ixabert finds the current socialist team so lacking, why didn't he offer to step up to the plate?

Because I want to be on the Marxist team.
Well, is Ixabert going to tell us who in the Socialist team he finds so innappropriate?

I was criticising, not personally attacking, and I was not being specific - personal attacks are by definition specific.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#370745
Quit your bitching, Ixy. If you're so distraught with the composition of the socialist team, you should've taken an active role in trying to mold it. Since you clearly displayed no such interest, your whining is irritating at best and meddlesome at worst. Find something better to do.
User avatar
By Todd D.
#370770
Oh boy, I am absolutely salivating at the idea of Ixabert being on the Marxist team.

He'd be the best player that we've got...
By Ixa
#370897
Todd D. wrote:Oh boy, I am absolutely salivating at the idea of Ixabert being on the Marxist team.

He'd be the best player that we've got...

I agree, although Jaakko is very informed as well.

Confessions extracted under torture...seems legit.[…]

^ Wouldn't happen though, since the Israelis are n[…]

I was actually unaware :lol: Before he was […]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

Every accusation is a confession Why sexual v[…]