[LiquidPony]

oh boohoo, quit acting like such a pussy, you blurted a strong opinion based on nothing and someone told you to shut up. You've been right before and you can do it again unlike Oxymoron who I don't even pretend to think can be helped.

I was invited aboard Sea Shepard as a matter of recruitment and I took that very seriously and asked every question that occurred to me at the time. It was a long time ago but I remember my impression was generally positive. I believe they're trying to do something good and necessary and this is not a popular job, nor is it easy to get it funded. But you can plop down a negative report on their personal character why? Because they're environmentalists. That's ludicrous, you either need to clarify that you're opinion is totally meaningless or not state it.

what show? I still don't know.

My opinion is based on my observations of the Sea Shepherd and its crew while watching the Animal Planet series Whale Wars. So, my opinion is not "based on nothing."

Regardless, it's just an opinion, and it's not necessary to tell me to "shut the fuck up" just because you disagree with me.

No, I don't really know anything about these people, but I've seen Paul Watson create an elaborate hoax pretending to be "shot" by the Japanese, and I've seen the confused kids on the show willingly put their lives in danger while Paul Watson sleeps comfortably aboard his ship. And I've seen them literally in tears when they've (very rarely) actually seen a whale harpooned. Now, I have no problem with activism. I have no problem with environmentalists. I just think these people are misguided. They're dancing to Watson's tune, and like I said, I think he's a charlatan.

The vast amounts of money and resources devoted to these shenanigans could be better put to use elsewhere, and my feeling is that Watson has no real interest in making a difference, he just wants to make headlines.

[Tailz]

I like Sea Sheppard’s ideals of stopping whaling in the supposed Whale Sanctuaries; there are times I would have liked to have put a torpedo into a whaling ship. But I often have also had to stand back and say, WTF are they doing now? Difference between ideals and methods for me.

The Japanese politicians make a big song and dance about the whaling issue because, to back down now would be to lose face for Japan, a loss of national pride – the issue has become far too wrapped up in nationalism for the Japanese to back out now. But this is also a situation of the anti-whaling groups own making, by backing Japan into a corner from which there is no compromise way out for the Japanese. The issue has become: Whaling, Yes or No. So the Japanese don’t have a way out without losing face and prestige on the issue, so they continue to fight for it. And thus they get wedged into that corner more and more.

What do you think about the Inuit in your own nation harvesting bowhead and beluga whales?

I have no problem with “traditional whaling” at all, because its impact upon the whale population is extremely low. I do have a problem with industrialised whaling because its effect on the whale population is devastating and unsustainable.

They eat the whales just like the Inuit do, and they've been doing it as long as the Inuit have, too.

Whale meat was not a traditional staple of Japanese as it was to the Inuit. According to a friend of mine who lived in Japan for a good many years, whale is almost never eaten – their crazy about Tuna tho...

[SpecialOlympian]

You know I was thinking about this after I saw the South Park episode that mocked them.

Instead of cruising around in one large, useless ship throwing stinky things at the Japanese why don't they use a fleet of smaller ships armed with underwater speakers blaring death metal? The idea would be that a smaller ship generating insane amounts of unpleasant noise would scare whales away from the Japanese whaling ships. I'm no marine biologist or anything, but wouldn't it be more effective to scare the whales away rather than annoying the Japanese?

[Dave]

They're pirates and should be dealt with as such. Kill them at sea or hang them at the nearest dock, sink their ships, and bomb any ports they sail from. Piracy is a crime against all mankind.

[Huntster]

Huntster wrote:
What do you think about the Inuit in your own nation harvesting bowhead and beluga whales?

I have no problem with “traditional whaling” at all, because its impact upon the whale population is extremely low. I do have a problem with industrialised whaling because its effect on the whale population is devastating and unsustainable.

Then your problem is with numbers, not "who done it", because (like I've written several times on this thread), the Japanese have a "tradition" of whaling that is as old as the Inuit.

And, since the Japanese are targetting minke whales (which have extremely high numbers and are threatened no where in the world), they are engaging in sustainable whaling.

So the political problem is the absolute refusal of the IWC to recognize Japanese rights to whale like the Inuit and to work with them on sustained yield numbers and whaling management, isn't it?

Huntster wrote:
They eat the whales just like the Inuit do, and they've been doing it as long as the Inuit have, too.

Whale meat was not a traditional staple of Japanese as it was to the Inuit. According to a friend of mine who lived in Japan for a good many years, whale is almost never eaten

Whaling is every much as traditional to the Japanese as it is for the Inuit. Perhaps even more so:

Archeological evidence, in the form of whale remains discovered in burial mounds, suggests that whales were consumed in Japan during the Jomon Period. It is believed that stranded whales were taken and consumed (passive whaling) by indigenous people, such as the Ainu.[6]Surviving Ainu folklore also reveals a spiritual association with whales.[7]

The Jomon Period covers the period of 14,000 BCE to 400 BCE.

The reason "your friend" notes that "whale is almost never eaten" is because of it's scarcity, not it's lack of tradition, utility, or marketability.

[XAdamX]

I support the cause 100% but most of them are indeed "pussies". Their methods are suspect and SpecialOlympian proposes an interesting idea (though I doubt most of them are familiar with Death Metal). I watched an episode in which an entire 45 minutes was spent trying to throw some chemical onto the deck of a Japanese whaling vessel. Since I doubt any of these characters have ever thrown a football or baseball before in their entire lives the effort deemed fruitless. Even if they were successful the action still didn't make sense to me. The chemical contaminates the whale meat rendering it useless for consumption. Whales are still being killed only now it is completely useless for everyone; a lose-lose scenario.

[Huntster]

I watched an episode in which an entire 45 minutes was spent trying to throw some chemical onto the deck of a Japanese whaling vessel. Since I doubt any of these characters have ever thrown a football or baseball before in their entire lives the effort deemed fruitless. Even if they were successful the action still didn't make sense to me.

It makes for good "reality" TV for the idiots who watch it and actually believe it means something.

[Tailz]

Then your problem is with numbers, not "who done it", because (like I've written several times on this thread), the Japanese have a "tradition" of whaling that is as old as the Inuit.

I don’t care who kills the cattle that end up in my hamburgers. The way I see it, is that if they are going to pursue the “tradition” approach, then they should be following the practice of the tradition, which is a low yield and low impact fishing method. Not factory ship fishing – which is not a traditional element of their fishing, but a modern day convenience and tool of mass production.

Even their method of harvesting Blue Fin Tune – a staple element of Sushi that is widely consumed by the Japanese – has already been damaged by unsustainable fishing in Japanese waters. With Japanese fishermen already complaining that the size & number of Tuna being caught today has drastically fallen.

The problem is, industrial fishing of this level is not sustainable when you only rely on the natural breeding patterns of the world’s oceans. The devastating impact of the fish is also seeing the rise of giant jellyfish in Japanese waters which in turn get caught in fishing nets and poison the catch. A rise in Giant Jellyfish is a direct result of a lack of predators such as whales and large Tuna.

And, since the Japanese are targetting minke whales (which have extremely high numbers and are threatened no where in the world), they are engaging in sustainable whaling.

Minke Whales do not have the kind of high birth rates needed to be a sustainable source of harvestable animals to facilitate industrialised whaling upon a wild population of animals sustained by wild breeding as compared to sustainable breeding with domesticated and farmed animal stock.

So the political problem is the absolute refusal of the IWC to recognize Japanese rights to whale like the Inuit and to work with them on sustained yield numbers and whaling management, isn't it?

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. From what I have seen, the problem seems to revolve around the method of whaling, traditional vs industrial. The Japanese are using their tradition as an excuse to harvest whales on an industrial scale. The Japanese are just being stubborn now, as to give in now would be a loss of prestige for elder statesmen – so it is also a conflict of culture.

Whaling is every much as traditional to the Japanese as it is for the Inuit. Perhaps even more so:

Archeological evidence, in the form of whale remains discovered in burial mounds, suggests that whales were consumed in Japan during the Jomon Period. It is believed that stranded whales were taken and consumed (passive whaling) by indigenous people, such as the Ainu.[6]Surviving Ainu folklore also reveals a spiritual association with whales.[7]

The Jomon Period covers the period of 14,000 BCE to 400 BCE.

Not really, I gage the importance of Whaling by the level of consumption. The Inuit consume far greater amounts of whale meat, on far more social levels of society than traditional Japanese consumption of whale meat. Yes the tradition of consuming whale meat has been there for a very long time, but the consumption of whale meat was never at the same level of that of the Inuit. Some Japanese areas even refused to consume Whale meat because of a spiritual association with whales in folk lore – while the arrival of Buddhism also reduced the consumption of whale meat.

Those who did consume whale meat were the wealthy, since traditional whale catches required a large outlay of manpower – which only the wealthy could finance. This restricted the consumption of whale meat to the upper crust of Japanese society.

The reason "your friend" notes that "whale is almost never eaten" is because of it's scarcity, not it's lack of tradition, utility, or marketability.

I don’t doubt scarcity was a contributing factor. But just that general Japanese care little for the subject, only those who are emotional about the subject of Japanese pride get psyched up over the issue. Thus why the loudest voices are the politicians. The fish farming community only makes a noise as they see it as a cash cow. There have even been advertising campaigns to stimulate a desire to eat whale meat as a sign of national/cultural pride.

Even the Japanese I know living in Australia, are “Meh...” over eating whale.

[Huntster]

Huntster wrote:
Then your problem is with numbers, not "who done it", because (like I've written several times on this thread), the Japanese have a "tradition" of whaling that is as old as the Inuit.

I don’t care who kills the cattle that end up in my hamburgers.

I'll bet that you'd have a problem if a group of cow lovers told you that you can't eat hamburgers at all anymore because cows were special, but Wimpy could because he had a more attractive tradition of eating hamburgers than you did.

You've gotta' eat spinich, Popeye............

The way I see it, is that if they are going to pursue the “tradition” approach, then they should be following the practice of the tradition, which is a low yield and low impact fishing method. Not factory ship fishing – which is not a traditional element of their fishing, but a modern day convenience and tool of mass production.

The Inuit use explosive harpoons just like the Japanese do. The only difference is in recognition of tradition, species targetted, and harvest numbers. Recognizing Japanese tradition and establishing reasonable harvest limits would be fair, wise, and sustainable.

Even their method of harvesting Blue Fin Tune – a staple element of Sushi that is widely consumed by the Japanese – has already been damaged by unsustainable fishing in Japanese waters. With Japanese fishermen already complaining that the size & number of Tuna being caught today has drastically fallen.

The problem is, industrial fishing of this level is not sustainable when you only rely on the natural breeding patterns of the world’s oceans. The devastating impact of the fish is also seeing the rise of giant jellyfish in Japanese waters which in turn get caught in fishing nets and poison the catch. A rise in Giant Jellyfish is a direct result of a lack of predators such as whales and large Tuna.

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm an active opponent of the commercial fishing industry, especially here in Alaska. They don't like me very much, and the feeling is mutual.

However, commercial fishing and whaling are worlds apart. We're discussing reasonable whaling harvests for the Japanese, who eat whale, and always have.

Huntster wrote:
And, since the Japanese are targetting minke whales (which have extremely high numbers and are threatened no where in the world), they are engaging in sustainable whaling.

Minke Whales do not have the kind of high birth rates needed to be a sustainable source of harvestable animals to facilitate industrialised whaling upon a wild population of animals sustained by wild breeding as compared to sustainable breeding with domesticated and farmed animal stock.

Minke whales can easily support a sustained yield harvest, and that is easily more true of minkes as it is for the bowhead that the Inuit hunt.

Huntster wrote:
So the political problem is the absolute refusal of the IWC to recognize Japanese rights to whale like the Inuit and to work with them on sustained yield numbers and whaling management, isn't it?

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. From what I have seen, the problem seems to revolve around the method of whaling, traditional vs industrial. The Japanese are using their tradition as an excuse to harvest whales on an industrial scale. The Japanese are just being stubborn now, as to give in now would be a loss of prestige for elder statesmen – so it is also a conflict of culture.

I think it's the whale lovers and IWC who are being "stubborn". Minke whales can easily support a sustained yield harvest, but the IWC don't want to allow the Japanese to harvest whales because the IWC is in the control of whale lovers.

Huntster wrote:
Whaling is every much as traditional to the Japanese as it is for the Inuit. Perhaps even more so:

Archeological evidence, in the form of whale remains discovered in burial mounds, suggests that whales were consumed in Japan during the Jomon Period. It is believed that stranded whales were taken and consumed (passive whaling) by indigenous people, such as the Ainu.[6]Surviving Ainu folklore also reveals a spiritual association with whales.[7]

The Jomon Period covers the period of 14,000 BCE to 400 BCE.

Not really, I gage the importance of Whaling by the level of consumption.

The allowance for the Inuit is based upon tradition. But even there the games persist:

Commercial whaling, the principal cause of the population decline, has been discontinued. The population off Alaska has increased since commercial whaling ceased. Alaska Natives continue to kill small numbers of Bowhead Whales in subsistence hunts each year. This level of killing (25–40 animals annually) is not expected to affect the population's recovery. The Bowhead Whale population off Alaska's coast (also called the Bering-Chukchi-Beaufort stock) appears to be recovering but remains at about 10,500 animals (2001). The status of the other Bowhead populations is less well known. There are about 1,200 Bowheads off West Greenland (2006), while the Spitsbergen Bowhead population may only number in the tens.

In March, 2008, Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans stated that previous estimates of the Bowhead population in the Eastern Arctic had undercounted the number of whales in the region, with a new estimate of 14,400 animals (r. 4,800-43,000).[12] These larger numbers would correspond to the estimates of the whale population before whaling, indicating that this population has recovered. However, some supporters of climate change could argue that with more breaking up of sea ice Bowhead whales could be threatened by increased shipping traffic

And the games will continue, and it is mostly based upon the religion of environmentalism.

The Inuit consume far greater amounts of whale meat, on far more social levels of society than traditional Japanese consumption of whale meat.

Obviously, that is because the Inuit are allowed to harvest whales and the Japanese are not.

Yes the tradition of consuming whale meat has been there for a very long time, but the consumption of whale meat was never at the same level of that of the Inuit.

Nobody is saying that it must be. I am only saying that allowing the Inuit a legal harvest and denying the Japanese any harvest at all is not reasonable, and so it shouldn't be a surprise when the Japanese exploit the "research" exemption.

Huntster wrote:
The reason "your friend" notes that "whale is almost never eaten" is because of it's scarcity, not it's lack of tradition, utility, or marketability.

I don’t doubt scarcity was a contributing factor. But just that general Japanese care little for the subject, only those who are emotional about the subject of Japanese pride get psyched up over the issue. Thus why the loudest voices are the politicians.

They're eating the meat. With such a low "research harvest", it will remain that way, but if the harvest was to raise, the meat would still be fondly eaten.

Prove me wrong; increase the harvest and we'll see.

There have even been advertising campaigns to stimulate a desire to eat whale meat as a sign of national/cultural pride.

Like this?

Even the Japanese I know living in Australia, are “Meh...” over eating whale.

I've eaten whale. I don't like it. I think it tastes like shit (actually, more like jelled cod liver oil).

But, again, I don't have such a tradition like the Inuit and Japanese..............

[Tailz]

I'll bet that you'd have a problem if a group of cow lovers told you that you can't eat hamburgers at all anymore because cows were special, but Wimpy could because he had a more attractive tradition of eating hamburgers than you did.

You've gotta' eat spinich, Popeye............

You eat plants, you murder!!

Actualy, I am quite partial to spinich...

The Inuit use explosive harpoons just like the Japanese do. The only difference is in recognition of tradition, species targetted, and harvest numbers. Recognizing Japanese tradition and establishing reasonable harvest limits would be fair, wise, and sustainable.

The Inuit engage in a low impact hunt (as far as I know). The main issue with the Japanese (as far as I know) is a determined stance to engage in industrial harvesting of the Whale population of the planet – which is unsustainable, and will in the long run damage the ecosystem of the worlds seas by removing a large slow breeding predator. If the Japanese wish to engage in a low impact traditional style hunt, I have no problem with that.

The error of the Japanese is that they have for the last 100-200 years, overfished their local waters.

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm an active opponent of the commercial fishing industry, especially here in Alaska. They don't like me very much, and the feeling is mutual.

However, commercial fishing and whaling are worlds apart. We're discussing reasonable whaling harvests for the Japanese, who eat whale, and always have.

Eat Whale, always have, but never as a staple element of the diet of the Japanese.

Minke whales can easily support a sustained yield harvest, and that is easily more true of minkes as it is for the bowhead that the Inuit hunt.

A managed harvest of the level the Japanese wish to engage in? Maybe for a few years, but longer, doubtful.

I think it's the whale lovers and IWC who are being "stubborn". Minke whales can easily support a sustained yield harvest, but the IWC don't want to allow the Japanese to harvest whales because the IWC is in the control of whale lovers.

I disagree; I think both are being stubborn. The Japanese want to jump right into full industrial harvesting; the anti-whalers don’t want any whaling at all. As for control of the IWC, thats a joke, the Japanese bribe Island nations for support, while the anti-whaling groups engage in emotional blackmail (No don’t eat Schamoooo!).

The allowance for the Inuit is based upon tradition. But even there the games persist:

We have a number of endangered marine species here, but traditional hunting is the only permitted method of catching them. Eg: turtle hunting by coastal tribes.

The difference here is that the tribal members use traditional methods, not factory ships.

And the games will continue, and it is mostly based upon the religion of environmentalism.

I agree, the “emotional environmentalists” are in it to save Schamooo, the larger eco system picture fades from view for them. But on the other hand, dollars are what comes into view for those who advocate industrial fishing.

Obviously, that is because the Inuit are allowed to harvest whales and the Japanese are not.

Ahh no, on a traditional level whales were considered sacred animals of the seas, some tribes fully refused to eat the meat of a whale. Even then hunting whale was so expensive that only the wealthy upper classes of traditional Japanese society could afford it . So although whale meat was a part of the traditional diet, it was not that large a part of the diet when compared to other sea foods that formed the traditional Japanese diet. This is in stark contrast to communal Inuit society where a hunt would yield food for the whole society, not just the wealthy upper class (at least this is to my current understanding of the Inuit).

So even when the Japanese could engage in whaling, whale meat was not consumed to such a level as that of the Inuit. Thus the comparison fails beyond the fact that both peoples consumed whale meat. One people consumed whale as a part of the staple diet, the other consumed whale as a rare delicacy.

Nobody is saying that it must be. I am only saying that allowing the Inuit a legal harvest and denying the Japanese any harvest at all is not reasonable, and so it shouldn't be a surprise when the Japanese exploit the "research" exemption.

I agree. But the simple difference is the Inuit endeavour of traditional hunting (25–40 animals annually) will have far less of an impact on whale numbers than the industrial capacity of whaling the Japanese want to engage in. The Inuit have shown that traditional hunting is sustainable; the Japanese have shown that industrial harvesting is not sustainable.

They're eating the meat. With such a low "research harvest", it will remain that way, but if the harvest was to raise, the meat would still be fondly eaten.

Prove me wrong; increase the harvest and we'll see.

I don’t doubt that the eating of whale meat would increase if a factory level of harvesting was engaged in – especially considering the Japanese fishers would advertise the fact which would itself fuel the consumption of whale meat. But if we look at the history of the consumption of whale meat in Japan, it was never that great. Thus high levels of consumption of whale meat today would be a manufactured fact of today’s politics – not a result of traditional eating habits.

I've eaten whale. I don't like it. I think it tastes like shit (actually, more like jelled cod liver oil).

But, again, I don't have such a tradition like the Inuit and Japanese..............

No one that I know, says the Japanese should be disallowed to eat whale meat altogether. But that industrial harvesting will decimate the whale population – which will have, and already does have, far reaching consequences.
If the Japanese want to engage in a traditional hunt, that is fine by me – but a traditional hunt is not hundreds or thousands of animals on an annual basis.

[kit]

I've personally known Paul Watson for over thirty years. I was with Green Peace when Paul left Green Peace and started the SSS. He didn't think GP was 'active' enough in protecting the environment especially after the French sunk the 'Rainbow Warrior'. This is how the Japanese do their so-called research. They kill the whale, cut it up, put the pieces in flash freezers, take some slide samples of the liver for their 'research' and then by Japanese law they are allowed to sell what is left of the whale (99.99999% of the carcass) to help off-set the cost of the 'research'. Go to Japan. If you are willing to go to the most exclusive restaurants there and you are willing to spend 500 bucks plus for a tiny portion of whale meat you can.
The Japanese are obsessed with any thing that comes out of the sea. Go to a Japanese sea food merchants market auction at two in the morning and you'll things from the sea for sale that will amaze you.
BTW, who knows why the Green Peace ship was named the 'Rainbow Warrior'? I do.