What is a true Centrist? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Any other minor ideologies.
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By hannigaholic
#13281451
My "simplistic" system is by far the best because I can weigh freedoms from country to country and then place them accordingly on the chart.


But you can do this without even having to fiddle about with weights if you use a 2-axis system. Everybody can look at the same chart and immediately know where they would like to live or which party they would like to vote for, rather than having to produce a completely different chart for every person on the planet.

For example (I've guessed at rough levels of behavioural freedom, so don't take the numbers as anything other than a basic illustration)

Image

You can see that Zimbabwe and Denmark have pretty much identical tax rates, but that Zimbabwe places far more personal restrictions on you than Denmark does. Similarly moving from the USA to singapore becomes a tradeoff in personal freedom for financial freedom. Denmark, the UK, and the USA have different levels of taxation with similar levels of personal freedom. Anybody can look at this graph and know which country they would rather live in, based on their own preferences. Looking at your graph, all they would know is which country you would prefer to live in, based on completely unknown preferences that you have applied to different freedoms.

These qualitative differences can be objectively measured, and a single chart produced, which everybody can read easily. That makes it far more appropriate than the utterly facile single-axis chart, which is pretty much just a line of "Stuff DanDaMan likes" v "Stuff DanDaMan doesn't like", and thus of value to nobody else.
By DanDaMan
#13282173
Hannigaholic, as I have said before... you are mistaken to think financial freedom is separate from personal freedom.

Let's say you have zero financial freedom, based on your chart, and you keep none of your wages.
Wouldn't you then be a slave?
So your chart is perversely wrong.

Here's a test for your chart...
If you have zero personal freedom, what does financial freedom mean to you?
By PBVBROOK
#13282305
DDM. Freedom is always a personal observation. No chart can ever express it. If I feel free I am free. It is entirely possible for a person to be insanely happy and feel completely free to do what he/she wishes in the midst of the most oppressive regime in the world.
By pellejo
#13282311
So now explain to me how "your" democracy is for more freedoms when it inherently has more special interest groups to protect?


ohh but republicans do figt for special interest groups, mainly the rich, big buisness and the religious right. it's a republican myth or lie that only the democrats fight for special interests
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By hannigaholic
#13282501
Hannigaholic, as I have said before... you are mistaken to think financial freedom is separate from personal freedom.


And as I've said before, it does make a difference to many other people. This thread was about us defining centrism. I define centrism as countries with somewhere around 40-60% in both the financial and behavioural freedom scales. Just because my chart is different to your 'scientific' one, and just because I do see a difference between the two types of freedom, does not make it flawed; it just makes it different. I'm not buying into any dogma, and I'm not 'mistaken' just because I value certain societies differently from you. Feel free to judge societies based on your own scale, but don't expect other people to share such a narrow simplistic view of the world.
Last edited by hannigaholic on 31 Dec 2009 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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By Ombrageux
#13282546
That's enough McPoliSci. What passes for political thought in North America (really "popular" political thought) is not worth giving too much attention. Readings of Niccolo Machiavelli, Hanna Arendt and Raymond Aron (among others) are time spent infinitely better. The only reason these bullshit matrixes even exist has been the contamination of American academia by the "high-powered" consultese of false growth firms such as BCG and McKinsey. The Americans now are finding it increasingly difficult to separate their own thoughts from the pristine, vacuous PowerPoint they use to con others.
By DanDaMan
#13283151
Quote:
So now explain to me how "your" democracy is for more freedoms when it inherently has more special interest groups to protect?
ohh but republicans do figt for special interest groups, mainly the rich, big buisness and the religious right. it's a republican myth or lie that only the democrats fight for special interests
Fair enough point. But which party is more likely to tax the people to support their special interests?


Quote:
Hannigaholic, as I have said before... you are mistaken to think financial freedom is separate from personal freedom.
And as I've said before, it does make a difference to many other people.
Well then..consider ignoring them becuase they fail to understand you cannot split freedoms and still maintain a true definition and or chart. Doing so perverts freedoms based on dogma.
This thread was about us defining centrism. I define centrism as countries with somewhere around 40-60% in both the financial and behavioural freedom scales. Just because my chart is different to your 'scientific' one, and just because I do see a difference between the two types of freedom, does not make it flawed; it just makes it different. I'm not buying into any dogman, and I'm not 'mistaken' just because I value certain societies differently from you. Feel free to judge societies based on your own scale, but don't expect other people to share such a narrow simplistic view of the world.
Your chart does what appears to be a nice job of explaining a centrist. But as I said before... it is a perverted definition of freedom because you separate "freedoms" Therefore your chart is flawed from the start.


DDM. Freedom is always a personal observation. No chart can ever express it. If I feel free I am free. It is entirely possible for a person to be insanely happy and feel completely free to do what he/she wishes in the midst of the most oppressive regime in the world.
I'll take that a deceleration of incompetence at judging freedom.
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By ThereBeDragons
#13283159
You disagree with me; therefore, you are wrong. And incompetent. And possibly stupid.
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By hannigaholic
#13283310
Well then..consider ignoring them becuase they fail to understand you cannot split freedoms and still maintain a true definition and or chart. Doing so perverts freedoms based on dogma.


:knife: :knife: :knife: :knife: :knife:

The point is that people value different things differently. Some people value freedom of speech differently to freedom of information. To some, freedom of movement is more important than freedom of freedom to keep all their earnings. Your chart only reflects your own personal values that you attach to the different freedoms.
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By Dr House
#13287229
ThereBeDragons wrote:You disagree with me; therefore, you are wrong. And incompetent. And possibly stupid.

Oh, he very much is all of the above... but not because he disagrees with you.

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