[Rainbow Crow]

I feel as if no one really works for themselves anymore. I would define working for yourself as subsistence farming, hunting, gathering, making your own goods for your own use. In the modern and developed world, it seems to me that we are raised with this idea that people go into work for themselves, but the truth is that everyone is either working for someone else, or robbing people.

Even artists don't really work for themselves, because they make art for other people to like, if others don't like it then they won't buy it. People used to write songs about their girlfriend and put her name into the song, this fell out of favor quickly because it wasn't ambiguous enough for a large number of people to relate to.

This is basically an extension of my thoughts about how original appropriation (a necessary concept for a Libertarian free market to exist) is very close to dead.

Any thoughts?

[mikema63]

if everyone was just doing subsistence farming, hunting, and gathering for themselves and their families than there isnt really a market at all. a free market allows people to specialize in something and make or provide their service much more effectively and trade it for other peoples specialized goods and services. there would be much less artists without the division of labor because as it is now an artist can spend varying amounts of time on art (depending on how good they are) but is probably a lot more than would be possible or going around if people were subsistence farming. no one really works for themselves in the sense your thinking no, but subsistence farmers also work to provide food for their families so are they really working for themselves?

i think your being a little pedantic since "working for yourself" really refers to providing goods and services outside of an organization.

as for the bit about original appropriation if your talking about what i think you are then people do specialize in a specific appropriation like farming or mining and they sell off the surplus of what they appropriate in exchange for other peoples goods or services as long as the stuff is freely sold then i dont really see how the division of labor destroys original appropriation.

[lucky]

I feel as if no one really works for themselves anymore. I would define working for yourself as subsistence farming, hunting, gathering, making your own goods for your own use. In the modern and developed world, it seems to me that we are raised with this idea that people go into work for themselves, but the truth is that everyone is either working for someone else, or robbing people.

Correct. That's because specialization is much, much better. That's what allowed civilization to exist, and it's the reason Earth can support more than a few million people.

It would take me a very long time and a lot of work to make a table, a T-shirt, or a pencil, by myself from scratch. I guess I would have to start making a table by cutting down a tree, but with what? Start by building an axe and a saw, but where do I start? I need to dig up some iron ore. Using what? It's pretty much impossible to make anything other than primitive hunting tools without extended cooperation with thousands of other people.

With specialization today, I can buy a table, or a printer, or a mobile phone, in exchange for an hour of labor. It's millions of people that have somehow contributed to the making of every little thing, which is why they can be so efficiently mass produced using advanced machinery.

This is basically an extension of my thoughts about how original appropriation (a necessary concept for a Libertarian free market to exist) is very close to dead.

You were talking about self-sufficiency, and now you're saying it's required for a free market to exist? Doesn't make any sense. Markets are the opposite of self sufficiency.