Hey Fascists !! (non-prejorative) - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Any other minor ideologies.
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#14258044
I've noticed that several posters on this forum identify themselves as fascists. Could you tell me about your ideology and personal belief systems?

Perhaps I've been brainwashed by propaganda but I cannot think of single good thing to say about your ideology.

The flag of imperial Japan is better then the bland, simple post war version. That's all I can think of and it's hardly a reflection of your ideology is it?
#14258107
I'm not a fascist but generally if you don't care more about your nation or society than any one individual or group of individuals then fascism doesn't offer much.
#14258130
Fasces wrote:Use the Paternalism & Corporatism forum for discussions on fascism.


I haven't looked in there yet as those words don't appeal to me.

Oh well.

Is it possible for fascist states/ races/ etc. to co-exist peacefully alongside others? Japan went from an incredibly insular existence to one of conquest and domination in a short period of time. Is there any middle ground?
#14258362
Figlio di Moros wrote:Are you that lazy that you can't rewrite two sentences? If so, then we have good reason not to address you at all.


Actually I was reluctant to make a double post. Some forum administrators dislike having the same (identical) topic being discussed on multiple boards. It risks splitting posters who engage in parallel conversations. Also it can be considered clutter.

There are many different forums here so I may not always post in the most appropriate board especially if I have yet to discover a sub-forum that isn't listed on the front page.

I am not familiar with the terms paternalism and corporatism and didn't associate them with fascism.

Typing all of that took considerably more time that a simple cut-and-paste job.
#14258457
I call people fascist if they:

- Are anti-democrats of some sort, but not monarchists.
- More specifically believe a self-proclaimed elite of some sorts should rule.
- Also fascist are typically very authoritarian in their views (kind of like the catholic church, for example, or monarchists).
- Rather than believing in human dignity, human rights, and equality of people, they believe in mediveal values like honor.
- Do not believe in the basic principle of "those who rule should serve those who are ruled over" (bible). Rather, if you are "superior" to people by some sort of definition, you actually have all the right to exploit them.
- Fascism may, but doesnt need to be, combined with racisms of some sort. They certainly go very well together.
#14258477
Thanks for the overview Negotiator. That all sounds very unsavory to me and contrary to my own views. It's always good to further my understanding of different ideologies so that I can make an informed decision when I progress.
#14258513
Hey AFAIK, I keep seeming to run into your topics! Welcome to the forum.

I think a line must be drawn between what Fascism says it is, and what it actually is. There also needs to be an understanding of who supports fascism, and why. Not all fascist supporters are actual fascists, and many of them simply end up following a regime that promises decisive action and betterment of society. We can't really blame them for that, but we can blame the sorts of people who might utilise this to their own advantage (actual fascists). I myself am not a fascist, but I so rarely get a chance to analyse their in's and out's that I'll post my comments all the same.

I studied a fair bit of fascism as part of my degree (History), and found it easiest to understand from an outsiders point of view when you split it into three camps of reality. What I will not discuss here is the means and methodology, because that is pretty pointless to a debate. I imagine most of us will accept some form of ends justifying means, so with that in mind I'm only going to comment on the ends (or aims) of fascism, and not their authoritarianism or methodology. Most people would probably find their methods quite despicable, but that isn't a challenge to them at an ideological level, so it's something I'll leave for your future debates.

Fascism in terms of ideology:
Ideologically, Fascism is amazing. It's the coming together of a community for a single goal; the progression of your people. This doesn't have to be militaristic, it doesn't have to be imperial (we'll come onto why it always actually is in reality later) but it must be for the benefit of the population. A single collective, where every person put's the good of the nation ahead of themselves, and serves with duty. It's quite an attractive idea, actually, and I imagine probably had quite honest roots. There is nothing really wrong with this in an ideological sense, and any fascist who actually wanted to create that sort of nation I'd have no problem with. The issues it causes for everyone else however is within the reality and implementation of this ideology:

Fascism in terms of reality:
No fascist nation has ever given a shit about it's people - or any other people for that matter. You'll notice how in every experiment with this ideology, a small but significant group of individuals have supplanted a falling regime and dictated what would be "the good of the nation". Very often, this has meant militarism, war, and empire. This is otherwise known as sending the people of your nation like cattle to a slaughter house, in order for you to make great speeches about glory. Fascists in reality tend to be the sorts of people who dream about great battles, nationalistic symbols, and the expansion of their people and flag in order to gain the sort of rush most of us achieve through computer games. Unfortunately for them (or I guess, us), the reality of this means real people dying, and other groups of individuals paying the price for their particular lust for glory. A real fascist is the most despicable person in the world, and deserves nothing but painful agonising death. I imagine to them the benefit of the nation is best served through warfare, but I imagine most of us with a basic grasp of philosophy or ethics can see through this charade and onto what's really happening behind the veil.

Fascism to normal people:
It is important to always remember that fascism sells itself at the ideological level: They will help people, and they will try their best to collectivise the nation for it's benefit. Historically, fascist governments have actually done really well for their populations. It's not often spoken about, but they solved a lot of problems that the former governments didn't touch or were incapable of tackling. I believe that work should be applauded, and is very often used by fascists to point out their commitment to the first camp of ideology above. But this is never the end in of itself, and always a means to the glory, militarism, and other aims of a dictatorial oligarchy that we discussed above. As a result, a lot of fascist supporters tend not to be bad people, but rather people who have been swept along. I admit it myself, I find the ideological basis quite tantalizing! When I was younger I watched the anime Naruto, and fantasied about being a warrior who would always put their village ahead of their own needs - it's quite an attractive image, and not one I particularly want to discourage. What we do want to discourage though are those who end up doing the fascists dirty work - those who become part of the slave state. Empire requires soldiers, and the soldiers always end up being the victims for someone else's benefit. I don't particularly see fascism as alone in this regard, our modern day military die day in and out for the benefit of economic groups - and this is equally unacceptable.


Of course, you won't really get any true picture until you start discussing with this forums fascist contingent. Some of them come from camp 1, some of them come from camp 3, and I'm afraid to say there are a few here who belong in camp 2, but you will most probably work out who is who very quickly. My strongest advise would be to just tackle them openly - ask a couple of constructive questions and let them give answers. From this thread so far, you'll find that both Fasces and Figlio (who are now glaring at my response and cracking their knuckles) are quite reasonable fascists with very interesting points to make. In the past they have even brought up thoughtful points that have made me change my opinions on some things, and this should never be overlooked.

Be open minded, but critical. Good luck.
#14258623
This is a post I've made before that very briefly describes the central aspects of fascist ideology (and you can see why the subforum is named what it is!). It isn't comprehensive, but if you know absolutely nothing about what the beliefs are, it is a good start for a discussion.

Fasces wrote:Fascism is an ideology that has three fundamental tenets: Paternalism, Corporatism, and Nationalism. Each fascist movement was unique, but these three basic attributes are shared. One could also add anti-Marxism to it.

Paternalism refers to the hierarchical system of fascist politics. The state is the supreme authority, and this is in the people's interests. Liberty is a secondary concern. An apt analogy is the family: in fascism, the state plays the role of a father figure. Again, liberty is unimportant - much as the liberty of a child who wants to not eat his vegetables or do his homework is unimportant. What matters most is the health of the community and the pursuance of the national interest.

Corporatism is more complicated. It has nothing to do with corporations, as known in our society - the word comes from the Latin 'corpus'. It is the view that society can be divided into concrete groups, known as corporations. Another way to view them is as special interest groups. In a fascist society, people would be represented by these corporations. For example, in government, instead of a Congressman from Michigan, there might be a Congressman for Auto Workers. All Auto Workers would belong to a single union, and elect a representative (or have one appointed). In addition, fascism preaches tripartism. In it, society is divided into two sectors - labor and management - with a third sector, the state, reigning supreme, and being responsible for ensuring neither hurts the interests of the state. This is the most complicated aspect of fascism, and I have not come close to covering it here. If you want more detail, I'd be happy to provide it.

The final component is nationalism - the idea that a person's national identity is the most important aspect of their personal identity. The nation is supreme, and again, the individual is relatively unimportant. An analogy might be the human body. A kidney, or individual, by itself is meaningless - it is only when it exists in conjunction with the other organs that it becomes a body, or nation.


Fasces wrote:The major element [of corporatism] is tripartism - the idea that the state is supreme and responsible for managing the interests of labor and management.

Imagine you are in your class, and there is an older child working as a student teacher. Let's call him management. The regular teacher is also there. Let's call her a state. Finally, you're there. Let's call you labor. In this situation, and you and the student teacher rarely get along, and fight all the time. He hates you. He is also responsible for grading your papers. You don't think this is fair, so you appeal to a higher authority, the teacher. You ask the teacher to review all the student teacher's decisions to make sure they are fair, and don't harm you too much. At the same time, you can occasionally be a little disobedient. As you hate the student teacher, you don't respect him or listen to him. The student teacher will call on the teacher to step in when he can't do enough. The interest of the teacher is to maintain harmony in the class room, and to teach her students effectively. The teacher does not favor either of you all the time, but decides which one is in the interest of the classroom to favor [I am losing my analogy here].

The other major element is corporatism itself. Pretend your student president is elected [electoral college system, where each class gets to vote on their vote], but unlike most schools, not by grade [all fifth graders vote, all sixth graders votes, etc]. Instead, votes come from clubs or organizations. Art club students vote for their vote, regardless of grade, and football players vote for their vote, regardless of grade. I'm to abandon this analogy for a moment. The idea is that, in this way, special interests can make their concerns known without being drowned out by money, or drowning out with money. The oil industry would have a single voice in Congress. Because other congressmen are voted in only by those who have a vested interest, it is very difficult to bribe them to betray it - the congressman for conservation societies would have the same single vote as the oil company, and it is unlikely he will ever favor the oil man. The idea is also that congessman would only be able to vote on issues that directly effect them - ie: our oil industry man will be unable to vote on issues regarding electoral reform.
#14258677
Fasces- I see that you have quoted yourself so I assume you have discussed this before. Feel free to post links to threads and articles if answering all my questions is too much hassle.

Paternalism=Hierarchy- This is simple enough to understand. Personally, I'm a very independent person and wouldn't enjoy this.

Corporatism- Another way to view them is as special interest groups

I'm familiar with this concept.

All Auto Workers would belong to a single union, and elect a representative (or have one appointed)

Does 1 manufacturer, Toyota, operate as a nationwide monopoly or does it compete/ collaborate against/ with others, Honda, Suzuki, in the market place? Are cars imported and exported in a free or regulated market? Is Toyota state owned? How are factions/ internal disputes handled within the union?

If there are 1 million auto workers and 100,000 rail workers are they represented differently? Does the auto union have a louder voice or more voting rights then rail?

Do consumers have "corporations"? How are they formed? How do they function? What if a special interest group is overlooked by the state because it is considered to be marginal or inconsequential? Can I lobby or petition the state? I don't have my own representative to contact and air grievances to. Or can I ask my housing rep be able to raise "off topic" issues?

Homosexuals are a special interest group in liberal democracies. I'd imagine homosexuality is viewed negatively by many fascist states due to the lack of reproduction/ nuclear family. If the state is unwilling to provide "sexuality reps" what ability would they have to represent themselves?

Nationalism- I don't have any specific questions but I envision issues arising over migration, ethnic diversity and borderlands.
#14258713
Rei is the residential expert on corporatism. You'll get better detail on the national labor process from her.

I am primarily a nationalist. I would support liberal nationalism, for example, over international corporatism.
#14258724
Fascism is the individual submitting to the group, because the group can give an individual greater strength and opportunity at the expense of certain freedoms.

Like anything in life it is as good or bad as those calling the shots. The military is fascist. Schooling is fascist. Team sports are fascist. Your job probably is / or will be fascist.

The 1950's USA was fascist. The 1950's USSR was fascist. The family is usually fascist. Religion always is.

Most of life is a fascist situation to greater or lesser degrees because man is a social animal that needs structures.

It's about picking the level of fascism that you can deal with. Maybe it's ra ra hand on the heart when someone plays a song, or it's joining an army to defend your society, or it's gassing Jews to keep your society pure.

Or you could run off into the wilderness and be a Hobbes man, but good luck with that.

Fascism isn't a dirty word, unless you are a brainless 19 yo with no real understanding of how the world works.
#14273931
Paternalism=Hierarchy- This is simple enough to understand. Personally, I'm a very independent person and wouldn't enjoy this.


And yet most people (99.99999%) wouldn't want to live without any hierarchy at all, even if you aren't a great fan of being ordered around you must admit that if everyone refused to give up even the slightest amount of autonomy it would be almost completely impossible to organize any type of group effort. Imagine the effectiveness of an organization that couldn't control who got to call themselves a part of it, and whose branches may decide to do things entirely contrary to their goals.

Homosexuals are a special interest group in liberal democracies. I'd imagine homosexuality is viewed negatively by many fascist states due to the lack of reproduction/ nuclear family. If the state is unwilling to provide "sexuality reps" what ability would they have to represent themselves?


Rei is a facsist but is by no means anti-homosexual, and she isn't much of a supporter of the nuclear family. so there isn't any thing inherent in fascist ideology that is anti-homosexual.
#14273942
I'll add as well, that Fasces seems to be saying that I should talk about this:
Spoiler: show
Basically getting things done is a process, and the process requires that certain social conditions be met. No one is ever just handed the sceptre of power and asked to just implement a blueprint.

There had to be a methodology or social action programme for actually creating a situation where people will be inclined to do what we want them to do.

We often hear people of all stripes saying things like, "Oh I support the death penalty", "I oppose the death penalty", "I support licorice allsorts being handed out for free to kids in preschool", "I oppose the bill called CMD6758", "I support national self-determination", "I support your mother". No, no one can be said to actually support anything if no one can see how anyone plans to get there.

So what I do is start with a very simple list. KISS can be a kiss, but it also means 'keep it simple surely':

  • 1. A clear narrative about the current crisis based on some socio-economic class analysis.

  • 2. Fundamental principles on which actions are based.

  • 3. A path for community organisation which leads to a framework in which a programme may develop to address the contradictions at the root of the crisis.

The three 'answers' to those three 'questions' form the bedrock of anything else I say. So I'll immediately show those.

1. First the summary of the narrative:
    Rei Murasame, Sat 14 Jan 2012, 0433BST wrote:I would say that the upper-middle class has been locketing away an astonishingly high proportion of the growing wealth. They are even now using the liberal-capitalist state which they created, as an implement to further facilitate that.

    The working class have been facing an offensive from the upper-middle class, which has really been intensifying over the last few years. It is an offensive against public services, incomes, living standards and unions in order to short-sightedly boost the returns for multinational companies led by international finance. Not contented with the banks receiving the biggest bailout in the history of capitalism - a bailout that they themselves engineered - international finance apparently wants to continue to make the national community skirt closer to destruction to serve the narrow interests of financial institutions.

    We in the middle-middle class have been asked to co-operate with this disastrous development, but we should not co-operate with it, since it poses an existential threat to the national community. It's about time to seriously get a desire to take our countries back. If the present system is incapable of adequately allocating wealth to fulfil our policy preferences and foster social harmony - and now there is no doubt that it is incapable - then it ought to be sublated or abolished.


2. Then a summary of the principles, the aim being to foster full employment, growth, social inclusion, sustainability, health, and defence of a specific ancestral breeding group and its dominance of a civic space:
    Rei Murasame, Sun 20 Nov 2011, 0745BST wrote:We can seize the chance to build a new social order, in a new historic bloc. We can find meaning and reward in serving some cause higher than ourselves, a glimmering purpose, the warm glow of a thousand points of light, illuminating every child in the nation. Aren't we all gazing up at the same stars, are our feet not planted firmly on the same Land?

    We have to remember what that higher purpose is, the defence and maintenance of our population group. The nation is a project under renovation and construction, it should accept new parts and incorporate them appropriately, nurturing and developing them in accordance with our climate and what the new environment requires, while at the same time also continuing to conserve what has been passed down to us, if it is good, vetted and purified from among our people since the most ancient times.

    We have to act in the interests of those who came before us, those who are presently alive, and those who will come after us. This is so that we can safeguard our existence as a distinct people indefinitely/forever, and along the way possibly discover the Reason/Truth that lies behind our existence and explore the unexplained laws of nature and the special powers latent in humans*.

    * Hey, isn't that the line at the bottom of my signature? That's on purpose!

3. Then thirdly a summary of the path, which is what I want to especially highlight in this post, since the bolded portion here is basically the answer to your question in full context:
    Rei Murasame, Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1007BST (emphasis added) wrote:Primary phenomenon will always take revenge against any attempt to narrowly alter their derivative phenomenon.

    Mass migration is a derivative phenomenon, meaning that the ethnic contradictions are secondary to the primary contradiction which is the contradiction between:

    • The middle class whose interest is to be nationally hegemonic by arranging a unity of purpose between territorially-coincident capital and labour so that it can carry out its social goals,

      VS


    • Finance capital, whose interest is to most rapidly engage in wealth-accumulation and knock down any inconvenient barriers to that accumulation.

    What this means for us is that in order to credibly address any of the social goals, such as halting the mass immigration process, we must criticise liberal-capitalism and highlight the actual centrality of capitalist logic in the re-production of a scenario where this mass immigration (and whatever else we don't like) is occurring. That must happen openly and it must accompany a complete divorce from any centre-right organisations - that line must be drawn firmly in the sand.

    Another pitfall that we must avoid is the misuse of the word 'greed'. Greed is not the problem. It is not greed which perpetuates capitalism, it is capitalism which perpetuates capitalism; it is capitalism which penetrates and shapes society in such a way that the use of capitalist logic becomes the path of least resistance [to surviving] in that society.

    What is needed is for nationalists to kick against that logic and call for an ethnic solidarity in which we become comfortable with co-operating with and working alongside people of differing social statuses in our business-lives, so that capitalism can [be strongly attacked] and the experience of real community would be a practice and not just a word.

    This solidarited 'real community' effect must be actualised through 'the path of national-labour', a struggle in which the middle class would reach out to the working class and establish a rival base of economic power using a labour movement to facilitate the dispersal of economic power into national guilds and co-determinate corporations, and co-operatives. That is the only way to challenge finance. That material condition must be satisfied in order to attain the power to act; that is the only way that a Far Right party would ever be able to reach power while maintaining its integrity.

    And it is only then, that the potential would exist for the state to be actually commandeered by our new political class, a new political class which is interested in social justice and spiritual advancement of the indigenous people of Europe; that commitment being bolstered and encouraged by the aforementioned solid material incentives, in a civil society in which our community-oriented ideology would have already displaced liberalism and would be triumphant and total.

    The desires of our new political class could then be fashioned into a coherent corporatist institutional arrangement which - through consensus-building - would develop those desires into a workable methodology and therefore totalitarian action.

The reason that it has to be done this way is because simply promulgating a blueprint will not actually cause anyone to obey it, nor will it get you into power. So it must be built, that rival base of power must be built.

Now, why corporatism? Well let's take two views:
'National Guilds and the State', S. G. Hobson, 1920 (emphasis added) wrote:[...] economic power precedes and dominates political action [...] It is permanently true in that statesmanship must possess the material means to encompass its ends, precisely as one must have the fare and sustenance before proceeding on a journey. [...] Economic power is not finally found in wealth but in the control of its abundance or scarcity.

If I possessed the control of the water supply, my economic power would be stupendous; but with equal access to water by the whole body of citizens, that economic power is dispersed and the community may erect swimming-baths or fountains or artificial lakes without my permission. Not only so; but the abundance of water, which economically considered is of boundless value, grows less serious as a practical issue the more abundant it becomes.

The dominance of economic power depends, therefore, upon two main considerations artificially, by the private control of wealth; fundamentally, by a natural scarcity.


And:
Ludwig von Mises wrote:There is no doubt that any attempt to realize the corporativist utopia would in a very short time lead to violent conflicts, if the government did not interfere when the vital industries abused their privileged position. What the doctrinaires envisage only as an exceptional measure—the interference of the government—will become the rule. Guild socialism and corporativism will turn into full government control of all production activities. They will develop into that system of Prussian Zwangswirtschaft [compulsory economy - permanent state of exception and other scary things] which they were designed to avoid.

The Hobson quote is what we do and the Mises quote is the criticism of it, the Mises quote to which I respond by saying that it is something that we acknowledge is real, since the power to strangle resources is what gives fascist guilds their power, and is what allows them to take the government away from liberals in the first place. Yes.

But this is a feature, not a flaw, the potential for conflict is part of the balance of powers, so we also are open to the possibility that fascist guilds might need to actually turn and shut down the very same fascist government they helped inaugurate by using that power, and we are also open to the possibility that a fascist government may need to mediate to prevent a breakdown caused by inter-guild squabbling.

So in other words, there is a deliberate kill-switch built into this which can be triggered not by by some wishful thinking or law on a piece of paper, but by actual class motives coupled with a concrete ability to control resources. Guilds are after all comprised of people who have particular interests which are not the same as the state bureaucracy or the employers groups.

At any rate, once you finally have the country, then you can get into what institutional corporatism roughly looks like. I'll borrow (and adjust!) some cute theory from the South Koreans illustrate it, since they have really simplified their explanation of it, to the point where I will not have to bring out a 100 page PDF on labour-industry relations:

    Image


    Super short summary:

    Submission of Agenda
    • All members of committees may propose and submit an agenda.

    Deliberation of Agenda
    • Committees by agenda and industry deliberate agenda.
    • The Standing Committee deliberates and reviews agenda.

    Decision of Agenda
    • The Plenary Committee decides agenda after review and co-ordination of the Standing Committee.
    • The decision shall require consent of two-thirds or more members who are present.
    • The consent has condition that the presence of half or more representatives of labour, management and the government.

    Notification of Discussion Result
    • In the event that the resolution is not possible due to the absence of either all labour or management members, the Plenary Committee can start the deliberation with the attendance of the majority of the registered members and decide to notify the government of the discussion results up to the time, with the approval of the majority of the attending members.

    Okay.

    Why are we doing this? Because:

    • A. A mature guild movement coupled with transparent and rational management mediated by an ascendant State can cooperate for:
      • quality improvement and
      • raising productivity in an industrial economy.

    • B. Full employment policies create:
      • employment opportunities and
      • foster social integration.

    • C. Welfare of the employees is promoted, which:
      • protects their health and safety,
      • addresses the problem of plateauing wages by allowing wage-negotiation and
      • enhances national competitiveness.

    If this sounds like I've just gone and described "the chamber of fasces and corporations" from the fascist theory, it's because it is, of course. But notice that this only comes into existence at the end. Most of the economic structure's ground-work is actually laid during the revolutionary process.

RECAP:

So to recap what I just did, basically I showed how guild socialism is procedural, a path, and not just something to be implemented after we get in. As a path, it means it is something that must be done on the way to power and as a precondition for attaining power.

That's why "the path of national-labour" is distinctly different from something like just "the principles of national-labour".

So what I've done:
  • 1. A clear narrative about the current crisis based on some class analysis. CHECK.

  • 2. Fundamental principles on which actions are based. CHECK.

  • 3. A path which leads to a framework in which a programme may develop (notice that we don't presume to know every detail of what that programme will be in all scenarios!) to address the contradictions at the root of the crisis. CHECK.

Even if people disagree with how I've checked all three of those, at least I have checked them. If you want to find out if a revolutionary group is using joined-up thinking, take their economic programme and subject it to that checklist. If any of those come back as "NOT PRESENT" instead of "CHECK", then you know that their train has either gone off the rails or never been in contact with the rails of material reality.

That's the situation, and so there.

So click the spoiler tag and it should cover everything.
#14273944
If I could also add a question or two of my own to this pot.

What is fascism relationship to technocracy?

and more specifically corporatism relationship to how a technocracy would run its government?
#14275174
Corporatism is separate than technocracy; it was an early 19th century attempt to reconcile industrial economies. Most of us fancy post-scarcity to some extent or another, believing it possible to be more immediately implemented than others, but it does not make technocracy inherently anything fascist, socialist, etc- merely non-capitalist.
#14275291
Rei Murasame wrote:So click the spoiler tag and it should cover everything.


Thanks for taking the time to put all of that together.

Full employment policies create:
-employment opportunities and
-foster social integration.


By full employment do you mean maximum employment as in the attempt to minimise the level of unemployment?
How is this balanced against controlling inflation and maintaining competitiveness?

Will the system you advocate lead to a high level of incumbency as guilds attempt to protect themselves from competitors?
Will consumers, entrepreneurs and innovators be harmed by interventions designed to assist guilds?

What level of tolerance do you have for financial institutions?
I oppose their attempts to extract wealth from others but don't want to go to extremes that would cause stagnation or even regression.

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