Why Can't We Have a World Government? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14595704
I was just talking to a fellow member of this forum about the conditions of refugees in Europe. It breaks my heart that people all of the world are treated sooooooo differently just based on where they were born.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US?! HOW DID WE GET HERE? HOW DID WE BECOME LIKE THIS?

We are all humans and we are all equal. Nothing makes me better or worse than another person based just on where I they were born, what is their skin color, what religion they believe in, etc... This is all just bullshit.

Why do we even have different Governments?

Don't get the wrong idea, I am not suggesting chaos. I know that there is a reason for governments to exist. You need justice, for instance. There has to be authority out there- represented and elected by all the people- where you can defend your rights.
But why cant we just have a World Government, where everybody has EQUAL rights? And no one has more rights based on arbitrary things like race?
This is exactly like America. They had racism on the constitutional level. But once you remove that, once constitutionally there is no difference between black and white, a black person can become president.
Now dont get the wrong idea, I am not a huge fan of Obama. Nor do I believe there are no racist people in America, of course there are.
But once you remove racism on the constitutional level- meaning all humans are EQUAL- then it becomes A LOT harder to be a racist.
You can still be a racist in your heart. You can even talk about it or act upon it. But once it is ILLEGAL to discriminate based on race, you can called for it and judged.
That is how it should be all over the world.
This idea of governments with different "national interests" is BULL SHIT. We need to stop differentiating ourselves from others and accept that we are all equal.

Yes you may have different ideas as to how we should tackle certain problems- like how we should improve the economy, how we should tackle global warming, etc...- but all that is secondary. We could have different people competing in different ways to solve the same problems, that is fine. It is a free market. But there are certain "rights" that are UNIVERSAL and should be upheld universally. Such as the right to live wherever you want, do whatever job you like, express your fucking opinion, and practice your fucking religion no matter what is- so long as you don't try to force your religion onto others. These are UNIVERSAL rights that everybody should have. And nobody should be allowed to do anything to prevent you from having them.


I was just eating dinner at a cafeteria and the guy who served- probably Indian- was staring at me in a weird way. I think he was just envious of me because I could afford such a meal- which wasn't that expensive for me, but for him it probably was a lot. I could be wrong of course about his stares, but still, I am in fucking UAE and Indians are treated like slaves. So yeah, he gets to be jealous of a fellow Saudi.

And that is the thing, it is not that he isn't a hard worker. I am sure he probably works harder than I ever did. It is just that he's fuckin Indian and I am a fuckin Saudi and so I have "privileges" that he doesn't- better job opportunities, better salaries for the same jobs, etc... and so I get to enjoy a delicious meal and he doesn't.

This is all bull shit.
Last edited by alithinker on 02 Sep 2015 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
#14595710
This is all bull shit. I cant take this anymore.


Humans are super-predators mammals.

Only when you've experienced power over other persons you may be able to understand what is consuming our species.

The unquenchable thirst for power and the competition for it.

We'll evolve or disappear or something in between.
#14595718
alithinker wrote:You're not being sarcastic, right?
I don't that America actually wants there to be a World Government.


No, I'm not being sarcastic. And no, AMERICA doesn't want any World Government if that government is not AMERICA.
#14595743
If a government is big enough to give you everything you want...

Then it is most certainly big enough to take away anything it wants.

You're only as free as the leash you're on.

And I, for one, am sick and tired of people telling me what to do and that I need to ask their permission for.

If I want to have a meal of steak and potatoes, then why can't I?

Because poor people in another country needs that meal more than you ebcause they are more important than you you white capitalist pig.

I want to stand on my own two feet and make my decisions for myself. I want to ahve a small unobtrusive government that is not afraid of it's citizens that it it has to have a huge complex in Utah that needs a yarobyte of storage because it has to monitor all 318 million of us because we just might want to say no to the government and might just want the government out of our lives.

Because a big huge government that has your best interests at heart for you is nothing more than a tyranny.

The American government is already very big and powerful now, and all our rights are being eroded away every time a new law is passed because "there oughta be a law against that other dude" and so on and so forth.

Sorry, but no. I want control over my life, and that's why I don't want a big government.

Because with a huge and bloated government, there is no liberty in it.

None at all.
#14595749
Oh, I can think of a plan for world domination "world government"...but something tells me you might not like it.

I was just talking to a fellow member of this forum about the conditions of refugees in Europe. It breaks my heart that people all of the world are treated sooooooo differently just based on where they were born.

What an incredibly simplistic and unhelpful analysis of the situation.

We are all humans and we are all equal.

No, we are not all equal. If we are equal than what is an individual anyway? Being members of the same species and having basic biological features and genetic makeup in common does not preclude all the ways in which are different on both an individual and group level.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US?! HOW DID WE GET HERE? HOW DID WE BECOME LIKE THIS?

Maybe you are the one who has something wrong since you are being overly emotional about this. Also humans are not a homogenous entity nor is this kind of behavior anything recent at all. You're asking the question from the wrong direction.

I know that there is a reason for governments to exist. You need justice, for instance. There has to be authority out there- represented and elected by all the people- where you can defend your rights.

It’s funny that you think the primary reasons governments should exist is for abstract notions of “justice” and “rights” and not for more tangible reasons of organization and power structures that is part of a having a developed civilization.

But why cant we just have a World Government, where everybody has EQUAL rights? And no one has more rights based on arbitrary things like race?

We can’t just have a world government like that because humans as they spread out across the globe emerged into different tribal groups and also exist as individuals with sometimes opposing economic interests, ideologies, etc. and people are primarily concerned with their own needs first and those of their family/tribe/nation/species as secondary or tertiary concerns. And race and ethnicity isn’t purely arbitrary, it refers to recognizable physiological differences and also spreads into cultural, language, religious, etc. differences that emerged in disparate groups of people as they developed in different environments. Pale skinned people for instance are the result of a mutation that was advantageous in northern latitudes with less sunlight in helping produce Vitamin D. Other racial/physiological differences between different groups of humans can be also be explained by other mutations and these are currently being traced by scientists.

Disparate patterns of development matter, and they obviously play a role with uneven patterns of development in terms of different countries in terms of economics, technology, social patterns, etc. which plays a role in differences between countries over the course of human history. If it appears we are moving towards more “world government” today that also has to do with changing economic patterns which leads to increased trade, the emergence of multinational companies and global economies of scale. It doesn’t just abrogate the differences in various communities including ethnic/cultural divides and other things and again the migration patterns and rates of economic development are uneven. There is also competition and geostrategic struggle being waged both on small scale between individuals and on a large scale between countries, companies, etc.

If we are going to see more world government at the moment the real integration occurs more on a regional scale with projects like the European Union. Even the EU is running into problems though because while it seeks to integrate in the process it also exposes how different European nations still are both in terms of economics but also cultural and ethnic ties. More regional integration however is a tangible goal in the short term, but real world governances will not happen under the present world order.

This idea of governments with different "national interests" is BULL SHIT. We need to stop differentiating ourselves from others and accept that we are all equal.

Or it could be that it is not actually bullshit and that trying to sweep aside different interests because of some nonexistent equality. If you want countries to work together in a way that would lead to “world governance” you are going to need to reorder the political and economic systems in a way that people see it as being in their self interest to cooperate in such a way and make a convincing show that such a system would be the superior arrangement. You are also going to have to accept a the same time that we are not equal and that uneven patterns of development would continue to persist even if you did achieve world government.

But let’s talk big picture here: where is civilization going and how could we achieve a one world government and eventually a galactic government? Because those things are related.

1. Continue to develop global economies of scale. Build regional development co-operative spaces in the most developed parts of the world, particularly Europe (EU), North America and East Asia.
2. Continue to pursue automation and advancement of the means of production. The age of robots, cyborgs and genetic engineering arrives on a massive scale in the more developed countries.
3. Liberal-capitalism peaks and then enters a period of decay as it outlives it usefulness from an economic perspective. Cyberpunk era is in full swing by the middle to end of the century.
4. Contradictions in present system work themselves out to favor a new technocratic system that allows automation and global economies of scale to be fully utilized eliminating a massive amount of waste and inefficiency in the present system.
5. Regional spheres consolidate into technates.
6. Genetic, cybernetic and robotic age reaches maturity. Transhumanism with humans deciding the direction of our own evolution now becomes widespread. Most mundane tasks are now almost totally automated and the workforce required for most essentially industries is consolidated and reduced drastically. The trannshuman age changes the dynamics of human relations. Transhumans aided by armies of robots become the new advanced guard pushing themselves to a position of higher power over “non-modified” humans who are given the choice to join the transhumans or be left behind.
7. Demands for resources and perusing greater challenge and innovation leads to greater focus on space development. Widespread space mining takes off. As the technocratic/transhuman age emerges space development can be taken more seriously. In order to manage space development, cooperation between the space agencies of individual countries becomes more intense.
8. The internet develops into a global neural network of information sharing for enhanced during the transhuman age.
9. Regional blocs under the new leadership merge their collective efforts and further turn their attention outwards towards space. A superstructure for planetary functional governance is achieved with various regional sub-divisions continuing to be important as lingering uneven patters of development linger. While government will claim to be planetary it will still be dominated by those groups who were the most advanced in their development path and further accelerated in the transhumant age. Less developed regions are taken over by “project managers” to ensure they follow the “correct paths” and their resources are properly managed.
10. Eventually colonization of other worlds becomes possible. Planetary government becomes extended out of necessity into an interplanetary one. The Terran Empire is established.

So you see, something like that is possible. We could establish a new golden age of civilization and fulfill our dreams. The groundwork and prerequisites for these things are already being laid down. All you have to do is embrace it.
#14595753
alithinker wrote:We are all humans and we are all equal. Nothing makes me better or worse than another person based just on where I they were born, what is their skin color, what religion they believe in, etc... This is all just bullshit.

You're quite right.

Unfortunately, humankind is not yet sufficiently evolved and enlightened as a species to cast off its primal, instinctive, hard-wired programming of the last few hundred millennia and adapt properly to what we laughingly call, 'civilisation'. Tribalism, self-interest, domination, power, and a host of other legacies from our distant past still colour our thinking and intent. Our higher brain functions allow us to contemplate a world where, rather than needing a World Government, no government would be necessary but we are incapably collectively of the will to rein in our own primitive desires for the common good. James Madison, 4th President of the United States once said, 'If men were angels, no government would be necessary.' We're not angels.

Ergo, those who seek domination over others (usually the hard Right) will never subordinate their appetites for power to an inclusive, global initative. We all live on the same rock, hurtling through space, but for now it's easier to subdivide ourselves into warring tribes and manipulate and subjugate the masses with an illusion of democracy.

#14595804
Unfortunately, humankind is not yet sufficiently evolved and enlightened as a species to cast off its primal, instinctive, hard-wired programming of the last few hundred millennia and adapt properly to what we laughingly call, 'civilisation'. Tribalism, self-interest, domination, power, and a host of other legacies from our distant past still colour our thinking and intent.

I think that's basically right. Humans evolved as hunter-gatherers over hundreds of thousands of years. We have only lived in cities and in civilisations for the past six thousand years or so. That's simply not enough time for us to have adapted to our new mode of existence. We're basically cavemen trying to live in a spacefaring civilisation. Only time will tell if we can adapt to our new environment or if the mismatch between our evolutionary inheritance and our new social and material environment will cause our downfall as a species.
#14595829
I hate to seem boring, but this is an on-topic area of the board so at least pad out your gags with the odd substantive comment to keep the mods happy.

#14595853
^^^
Tyranny in action.

This idea of governments with different "national interests" is BULL SHIT. We need to stop differentiating ourselves from others and accept that we are all equal.




Yes because you will magically be able to create a world where people's interests are totally identical. Certain decisions will benefit some people and cause problems for others, being equal does not suddenly mean that people will not have different interests. All sorts of things (primarily economic class but there are others as well) interact to create a situation where people have totally different interests. That is so obvious it should not need to be stated.
#14595922
Iron Ant wrote:If a government is big enough to give you everything you want...

Then it is most certainly big enough to take away anything it wants.

You're only as free as the leash you're on.

And I, for one, am sick and tired of people telling me what to do and that I need to ask their permission for.

If I want to have a meal of steak and potatoes, then why can't I?

Because poor people in another country needs that meal more than you ebcause they are more important than you you white capitalist pig.

I want to stand on my own two feet and make my decisions for myself. I want to ahve a small unobtrusive government that is not afraid of it's citizens that it it has to have a huge complex in Utah that needs a yarobyte of storage because it has to monitor all 318 million of us because we just might want to say no to the government and might just want the government out of our lives.

Because a big huge government that has your best interests at heart for you is nothing more than a tyranny.

The American government is already very big and powerful now, and all our rights are being eroded away every time a new law is passed because "there oughta be a law against that other dude" and so on and so forth.

Sorry, but no. I want control over my life, and that's why I don't want a big government.

Because with a huge and bloated government, there is no liberty in it.

None at all.

I totally agree with everything that you said. I hate big governments, and I agree, your government has grown to be incredibly big and intrusive.
But I wasn't talking about your government, I was talking about mine. I live in a place where I have so little rights there are almost non existent. So when I am talking about having a government I am talking about a government that grants me protection for my rights, such as freedom of speech.

I think we come from two different parts of the world, one with excessive government, the other with lack thereof.




Varax wrote:No, we are not all equal. If we are equal than what is an individual anyway? Being members of the same species and having basic biological features and genetic makeup in common does not preclude all the ways in which are different on both an individual and group level.

I was running on the assumption that there are certain "rights" that should be upheld universally, such as the right to express your opinion. Are we not all "equal" in that? I was not trying to deny individuality. But there are certain things in which we are all equal.
Besides, what about the right to live and work wherever we want? Is that also not a right that everybody should have?



Varax wrote:It’s funny that you think the primary reasons governments should exist is for abstract notions of “justice” and “rights” and not for more tangible reasons of organization and power structures that is part of a having a developed civilization.

That is exactly what I meant by "rights" and "justice".

Varax wrote:But let’s talk big picture here: where is civilization going and how could we achieve a one world government and eventually a galactic government? Because those things are related.

1. Continue to develop global economies of scale. Build regional development co-operative spaces in the most developed parts of the world, particularly Europe (EU), North America and East Asia.
......

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here. I agree with everything you said above but that was not what I was talking about.
The reason behind this post was that I, a citizen of Saudi Arabia, don't have equal rights with, say, a citizen of America.
I don't mind any of the suggestions you made above, in fact I endorse them. But I feel like our improvement, as a human race, is infinitely dampened by arbitrary rules and regulations that exist today, which make it harder for example, for a guy like me to prosper and succeed in life just because I live in Saudi Arabia.
When I say equal rights, that is what I mean. And in fact, I argue, once you have "equality" between people, you open the door to an infinite amount of creativity and innovation that makes the impoverishment and development of civilization much easier and faster.
#14595927
Decky wrote:^^^
Yes because you will magically be able to create a world where people's interests are totally identical. Certain decisions will benefit some people and cause problems for others, being equal does not suddenly mean that people will not have different interests. All sorts of things (primarily economic class but there are others as well) interact to create a situation where people have totally different interests. That is so obvious it should not need to be stated.

True, we will always have different interests even within the same government. That is because we are all different and unique individuals.
However, there are certain "universal" rights that we all have. That is what I am talking about here. Don't you guys agree with me on this?
I mean can anyone argue that the right to freedom of speech, and the right to be treated equally under the law regardless of religious or racial background are universal? That is what I meant by World Government.
What makes say an American different than a Saudi?
Well, a lot of things. They could have different ideals, different interests, different opinions... But when it comes to legal rights, is one of them more eligible for certain opportunities than the other? Why can't I, a guy born in Iran, live and work in the US and another guy be allowed to work and live in the US just because he is born there? What if I am more skilled than him? Is that even good for the Economy? I don't think so.
#14595932
alithinker wrote:I was running on the assumption that there are certain "rights" that should be upheld universally, such as the right to express your opinion. Are we not all "equal" in that? I was not trying to deny individuality. But there are certain things in which we are all equal.
Besides, what about the right to live and work wherever we want? Is that also not a right that everybody should have?

In theory this sounds nice, of course, but how much of a drop in your own living standards are you willing to take to make this happen in reality?

If we are all equal and therefore should have the same rights, we need to be prepared for a massive amount of wealth distribution. Average GDP per capita in the world is ~ $13,000 (on a purchasing power parity basis) compared to $52,800 (US) and $31,300 (Saudi Arabia). The $13,000 will have to cover housing, health care, pension, social security and other public services for one person.

Countries with with a GDP per capita around $13,000 are Grenada, Venezuela, Saint Lucia, Suriname, Costa Rica, Iran. Are you willing to have the same living standards as the average person in those countries?
#14595937
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:In theory this sounds nice, of course, but how much of a drop in your own living standards are you willing to take to make this happen in reality?

If we are all equal and therefore should have the same rights, we need to be prepared for a massive amount of wealth distribution. Average GDP per capita in the world is ~ $13,000 (on a purchasing power parity basis) compared to $52,800 (US) and $31,300 (Saudi Arabia). The $13,000 will have to cover housing, health care, pension, social security and other public services for one person.

Countries with with a GDP per capita around $13,000 are Grenada, Venezuela, Saint Lucia, Suriname, Costa Rica, Iran. Are you willing to have the same living standards as the average person in those countries?

I am not sure that picture you are depicting is accurate. I think if we have equal rights, productivity in the world would increase. And as such, the average living standards of everybody would go up.
So it is not exactly like a "zero-sum game", where the is only one fixed-size pie and we have to all share the same pie. We can instead make more pies. In fact, that is how we got here. The human race hadn't had as much food and wealth as it does now, ever in its history. Where did the excess in wealth come from? We just increased in number, not decrease. And yet, everybody's wealth went up. That is because we increased productivity. (That is actually one reason our numbers have increased, increase in productivity. The other reason being the advancement in medicine.)
#14595945
Iron Ant wrote:If a government is big enough to give you everything you want...

Then it is most certainly big enough to take away anything it wants.

You're only as free as the leash you're on.

And I, for one, am sick and tired of people telling me what to do and that I need to ask their permission for.

If I want to have a meal of steak and potatoes, then why can't I?

Because poor people in another country needs that meal more than you ebcause they are more important than you you white capitalist pig.

I want to stand on my own two feet and make my decisions for myself. I want to ahve a small unobtrusive government that is not afraid of it's citizens that it it has to have a huge complex in Utah that needs a yarobyte of storage because it has to monitor all 318 million of us because we just might want to say no to the government and might just want the government out of our lives.

Because a big huge government that has your best interests at heart for you is nothing more than a tyranny.

The American government is already very big and powerful now, and all our rights are being eroded away every time a new law is passed because "there oughta be a law against that other dude" and so on and so forth.

Sorry, but no. I want control over my life, and that's why I don't want a big government.

Because with a huge and bloated government, there is no liberty in it.

None at all.


I can't help but notice that many of your sentences start with "I want" but none which start with "we need."

Honestly, it's easy to go on and on about liberty and what "I want" when the government has policies in place to make sure you have enough food in your belly and aren't constantly living in fear of being killed by roving biker gangs.

When the shit hits the fan, you will either trade every last right and liberty for some food and a gun. That, or you'll be dead.
#14595951
alithinker wrote:I am not sure that picture you are depicting is accurate. I think if we have equal rights, productivity in the world would increase. And as such, the average living standards of everybody would go up.
So it is not exactly like a "zero-sum game", where the is only one fixed-size pie and we have to all share the same pie. We can instead make more pies. In fact, that is how we got here. The human race hadn't had as much food and wealth as it does now, ever in its history. Where did the excess in wealth come from? We just increased in number, not decrease. And yet, everybody's wealth went up. That is because we increased productivity. (That is actually one reason our numbers have increased, increase in productivity. The other reason being the advancement in medicine.)

Before I reply to this, I need some clarification. Do you believe that people in the developed world will not see a massive drop in their living standard if we extended the rights that people in developed countries enjoy to everybody?

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