[Zamuel]

So to pretend that the world "is"- and "has been"- governed by a specific elite group of people who was in control since ancient times, is just.... well, let's say it would make for a good sci-fi movie.

No not "in control," That's just a dramatic interpretation. Influential is a much better word. "Ancient times", yeah - the original maji, a pre diluvium tradition.

Please, think about it. The world we live in -IS- a science fiction movie ... they building that dome in Dubai yet ... everybody ready for an air-conditioned city? Fire up the spindizzies and lets go!

Zam

[alithinker]

Seriously, why would anyone even want to have a world government? Isn't it enough that national governments are constantly fucking with a limited part of the world's population, do you really want a government that holds sway over all of us? What if you're unhappy with the way the world is governed? Where'd you emigrate to? If the government is corrupt (and it would be, trust me), which foreign government would finance and train your rebel movement? I mean, imagine the whole world was governed like North Korea. Or Saudia Arabia. Or Greece...

I don't know, whatever. Forget I ever suggested that.

What does *coughhack* mean though? Sounds like a nice word.
(You know, with all due respect Frollein, I feel like as an Arab, I am very qualified to learn German. You see Arabic is a "rough" language. But nothing is as rough in its sound and pronunciation as German. So I think I could handle it. )

[Frollein]

It means that whenever I have to put "France", "Germany" and "eternal friendship" into one sentence, I get a bad case of bronchitis.

[Harmattan]

The next time someone tells me that we have obvious common interests, that resent is behind us, that Europeans must work together, that we are one nation only, etc, I will point him to pofo and yell "this is the kind of friends we are, idiot".

Forcing us to work together and share our sovereignties will only lead us to kill each other.

Let's just stay far away from each other so that we can enjoy friendly ties.

[Harmattan]

Why do we even have different Governments?

So you want a single government?

Which language will it use? Or will you establish law in 10 languages? 100 languages? 1000 languages?

What moral values will it promote? For example what kind of penal justice will it favor? Stoning and mutilation? Death? Prison? Will it jail the authors of blasphemy? Will it teach evolution? The old testament? Will it allow genital mutilations? Only male genital mutilations? Face it: you want to impose your moral values because you think they are universal. I know Muslim who think the same, who want to impose the qoran upon everyone.

How will you handle interest conflicts in a heterogeneous population? Will you transfer money from the rich countries to the poor countries (on the average all westerners should be ten times poorer)? Or allow them to have different currencies and set up protectionism? Or will you force free market upon them, devastate their fragile economies and watch 100 millions of migrants move to your city because you led them to starvation?


Why the hell do you want to force the same laws upon everyone and fir everyone in the same mold? Embrace the global diversity, respect minority's sovereignties upon their territories.

[Frollein]

The next time someone tells me that we have obvious common interests, that resent is behind us, that Europeans must work together, that we are one nation only, etc, I will point him to pofo and yell "this is the kind of friends we are, idiot".

And they always say the Germans have no sense of humour...

Seriously, though, people can be friends, nations can't.

[alithinker]

Which language will it use? Or will you establish law in 10 languages? 100 languages? 1000 languages?

What moral values will it promote? For example what kind of penal justice will it favor? Stoning and mutilation? Death? Prison? Will it jail the authors of blasphemy? Will it teach evolution? The old testament? Will it allow genital mutilations? Only male genital mutilations? Face it: you want to impose your moral values because you think they are universal. I know Muslim who think the same, who want to impose the qoran upon everyone.

How will you handle interest conflicts in a heterogeneous population? Will you transfer money from the rich countries to the poor countries (on the average all westerners should be ten times poorer)? Or allow them to have different currencies and set up protectionism? Or will you force free market upon them, devastate their fragile economies and watch 100 millions of migrants move to your city because you led them to starvation?


Why the hell do you want to force the same laws upon everyone and fir everyone in the same mold? Embrace the global diversity, respect minority's sovereignties upon their territories.

Good argument. One government wouldn't work.
But here is the thing: if governments are based on: common language, moral values, justice system, interest system, etc... then why the hell are our governments today based on "Geography"? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the sovereignty of different governments is based on land, rather than all those other things you mentioned?
I wish that governments were about language, moral values, and justice system. Coz then, I wouldn't have to be where I am just because I am born here. I could live where people speak like me, have similar moral values, etc.. but now I am stuck!

[Brother of Karl]

Yeah, I had been thinking of the possibility of a landless government that works via the (at least initially) free association of groups of people anywhere on Earth. Now that instant communication and rapid transport is possible and fairly cheap anywhere on this big Rock, we can start to think seriously about making jurisdictional territory about more than just land.

If this idea ever catches on in a major way, I forsee some major wars erupting over it. A revolutionary change this fundamental probably can't happen without some serious violence.

[Harmattan]

But here is the thing: if governments are based on: common language, moral values, justice system, interest system, etc... then why the hell are our governments today based on "Geography"?

First of all the concept of state arose from security considerations. Which meant borders easy to patrol where foreign armies are not allowed to penetrate and roam. And this also includes criminals: many wars have started because the neighbor was hosting/defending burglars who were committing crimes in another territory. And finally autonomy: a state had to have food, energy, horses, materials to build war engines, etc, and today countries also maintain critical stocks in preparation for wars and pay special attention to the trade routes they depend on.

Then comes economy: imagine a micro-state nested within a larger country. Its only border would be with this other country and it would be dependent from this country for so much thing, from manpower to resources and export routes. In the same way a large territory allows you to have specializations and efficiency: industrial regions, administrative regions, etc.

And finally language, culture and identity are propagated to neighbors, which means that again a territory naturally arises.



Maybe in the future we could do things differently, by establishing a core set of minimalist international rules that would allow a variety of autonomous micro-states to peacefully and efficiently coexist. But it remains hard to imagine at this time.

[alithinker]

First of all the concept of state arose from security considerations. Which meant borders easy to patrol where foreign armies are not allowed to penetrate and roam. And this also includes criminals: many wars have started because the neighbor was hosting/defending burglars who were committing crimes in another territory. And finally autonomy: a state had to have food, energy, horses, materials to build war engines, etc, and today countries also maintain critical stocks in preparation for wars and pay special attention to the trade routes they depend on.

Then comes economy: imagine a micro-state nested within a larger country. Its only border would be with this other country and it would be dependent from this country for so much thing, from manpower to resources and export routes. In the same way a large territory allows you to have specializations and efficiency: industrial regions, administrative regions, etc.

And finally language, culture and identity are propagated to neighbors, which means that again a territory naturally arises.



Maybe in the future we could do things differently, by establishing a core set of minimalist international rules that would allow a variety of autonomous micro-states to peacefully and efficiently coexist. But it remains hard to imagine at this time.

Dear Hartman,
First of all let me say, I like your mustache
Secondly, I agree with pretty much everything that you said. But it sucks when somebody like me, who feels like joining another community, like America, but can't because of boarder and immigration laws. It really sucks.
Like I am not interested in moving to America in order to benefit from their social security system- I don't even know if they have such a thing- or leach on the tax payer's money. I just like it there, I like their ideals, their way of life, etc... I feel like I could easily fit in and have a good life. (I know that because I was a student there before. I was there for 6 years.)
But the problem is I cant do any of that because I am NOT allowed to "work" there.
Seriously, consider this: somebody is coming to your country to work and benefit your economy but your government is like: "no, you're not welcome." What the hell! That is stupid.

Let me tell you all a story (just to show you how ridiculous the system is):
When I was in America, I met a US citizen who was an extremist Muslim. He was such a fundamentalist guy, I am sure he would fit right in the community here, if he could come here, or even join ISIS. But guess what? He is not allowed to come here (immigration laws). I am also not allowed to live there in America.
Do you guys see my point? This system of making it hard for you to leave or come in just makes things infinitely complicated.
So that dude, instead of being allowed here to join his nation of Islam, he stays there in the US and chances are some day commit terrorism over there. And me? I'll just rot in here all by myself dreaming that one day I'll become rich and happy.

[Harmattan]

Dear Hartman,
First of all let me say, I like your mustache

Ah! A man of taste, thank you.

Let me tell you all a story (just to show you how ridiculous the system is):
When I was in America, I met a US citizen who was an extremist Muslim. He was such a fundamentalist guy, I am sure he would fit right in the community here, if he could come here, or even join ISIS. But guess what? He is not allowed to come here (immigration laws). I am also not allowed to live there in America.
Do you guys see my point? This system of making it hard for you to leave or come in just makes things infinitely complicated.
So that dude, instead of being allowed here to join his nation of Islam, he stays there in the US and chances are some day commit terrorism over there. And me? I'll just rot in here all by myself dreaming that one day I'll become rich and happy.

I empathize. The situation is harsh given that you already stayed there for six years and they already know that you would blend well. The US immigration laws are unfortunately some of the strictest ones. In France students after their master have twelve months to find a job related to their diploma and they are then automatically granted all authorizations. In this case companies are free to hire them and do not have to justify their decision or prefer a French candidate. Besides the authorizations are not tied to the contract so you can leave your job. Finally before they get the job of their dreams former students can also occupy part-time jobs not related to their diploma to survive. I think this is pretty fair and square.

Now don't get me wrong, I do not favor all open immigration policies: if France were to open its borders to all we would become a Muslim country and stop being France in just three or four decades. The immigration pressure is that high. We also have to restrict unskilled workers since our own unskilled workers are already facing unemployment.

But it would be so much easier if we could easily know who would be troublesome and who would blend well. Immigration officers hear lies all the day unfortunately. I can't blame migrants of course but this forces our officers to be suspicious and harsh and, in doubt, commit injustices. Now I hate mass surveillance à la Google but maybe one day it will allow us to automatically and reliably know if someone would blend well. Such a thing could have the potential to drastically change immigration by letting in more people who could blend.

[Zamuel]

why the hell are our governments today based on "Geography"?

Because geography was a severely limiting factor when they originated.

I wish that governments were about language, moral values, and justice system.

It's very hard for a government to establish itself. First it must develop an organization and a following. Political parties are a basic example, but they're very limited in scope. I'm familiar with two organizations with considerable followings that meet your criteria, in order to broaden their scope they are organized as (very loose) religions rather than political parties. They are: Scientology, and the Baha'i. Both are ready to step up and assume governmental status if an opportunity arises. Both represent the future and are recognized as threats by many world governments. (including the USA and Israel). They have been proscribed and persecuted by many established states. The Baha'i are even working on a UN sponsored "universal language."

If that seems sort of "Sci-fi to you? keep in mind that a lot of our present countries are deeply rooted in the religions that started them.

Zam

[Iron Ant]

I'd also like to add that geography also affects the economic system of any given country.

Such as how the infrastructure is laid out and planned, and how we travel upon to deliver goods from place to another.