The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 21 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15111018
Drlee wrote:Obviously you do not understand what you are saying. I am too tired to explain it to you.


Feel free to explain it to us when you are not so tired. Explain why you said that the shut down wasn't about the economy because Fox News or whatever.
#15111063
Feel free to explain it to us when you are not so tired. Explain why you said that the shut down wasn't about the economy because Fox News or whatever.


First of all "shut down" is a conservative talking point term. There is no shut down proposed. There are physical distancing, mask wearing and, where necessary, shelter at home orders for all but essential workers. It is a far cry from not allowing a baseball game with a crowd of thousands or not having computer game designers go to crowded workplaces to shutting down all commerce. We have never done that nor has it ever been proposed.

I never said that getting a handle on this disease did not have economic consequences. It does. The inaction of the Trump administration and republicans in general have virtually ensured that the damage has been far worse. If we had followed the recommendation of the overwhelming majority of scientists, had a national plan for physical distancing, mask use and stuck to it we would have saved well over 100,000 lives so far and minimized the economic damage to a great extent.

But, as they say son, you ain't seen nothin' yet. We have some 30 million Americans who very realistically will face eviction shortly and a very substantial number of republican senators (and no democratic ones) are for letting this happen. Care to guess what will happen when even a fraction of those folks become homeless? Then we scramble to put them into some kinds of congregate shelters or camps and provide them services. And, with the trajectory of the infection, a great many of them in red states where little is done for them on the state level too.

The US response to this pandemic, mostly because of the complete failure of the Trump administration is a tragedy of Biblical proportions. And it is one that the Republican party has to own all by itself. Had Moscow Mitch McConnell, backed by a group of republican senators, laid down the law with Trump early on, you would not be asking this question.

The time for letting people run from responsibility is over. The republicans are responsible for a very large part of the death toll. They are taking actions right now to ensure there will be very many more needless deaths. And they are trying to stop funding to help keep people in their homes. They do not even deny it so Maz, it will do you no good to try to argue the point. The educated and intelligent members of POFO already know this.

We are heading for an even worse disaster. Sadly there is a good chance that Trump will win again with the help of Putin and a great many very unintelligent Americans. If it happens then the American experiment is over. Social security will be destroyed, medicare gutted and the country will be little more than a third world economy with no middle class. The strong military will be the next to go because Putin would love to gut our global strength.

Cheating of all kinds will contribute to this but the majority of the blame will fall on uneducated, indoctrinated, unintelligent and apathetic so-called conservatives who followed an autocratic narcissist.

There is your answer Maz.
#15111065
XogGyux wrote:Let me see. Are you a distinguished epidemiologist? Infectious diseases expert? Medical doctor?
Your view is worthless if not.
Go away, and remember, don't have sex with demons in your sleep otherwise your vagina will have problems.

@maz is single handedly humiliating the scientific community. The fact that his opinions are so much more intelligent and worthwhile than the drivel being delivered by so many of the so called experts is not our problem.
Last edited by Rich on 02 Aug 2020 21:37, edited 1 time in total.
#15111080
Drlee wrote:First of all "shut down" is a conservative talking point term. There is no shut down proposed. There are physical distancing, mask wearing and, where necessary, shelter at home orders for all but essential workers. It is a far cry from not allowing a baseball game with a crowd of thousands or not having computer game designers go to crowded workplaces to shutting down all commerce. We have never done that nor has it ever been proposed.


So shutting down non-essential businesses is not shutting down commerce?

Why do you continue to call the shut down "conservative talking point" when it is the very experts you site who are using that very term?

Here it is again, the shut down in their own words:

Shut down the country and start over to contain Covid-19, US medical experts urge political leaders

More than 150 prominent US medical experts, scientists, teachers, nurses and others have signed a letter urging political leaders to shut down the country and start over to contain the surging coronavirus pandemic.

The only way to reopen the economy and the country safely is to follow a set of protocols that public health experts deem necessary for controlling the spread of Covid-19, the letter contends.

In addition, they say all non-essential businesses should be closed and restaurants nationwide should only provide takeout service. People should only leave their homes to get food and medicine or fresh air and exercise, and masks should be mandatory in all situations, the letter urged. Leaders should also ban interstate travel to help contain the virus.


Insane double speak from you DrLee. You are complaining that people are losing their homes yet you seem to be in favor of the very policies that are causing people to lose their homes.

Drlee wrote:But, as they say son, you ain't seen nothin' yet. We have some 30 million Americans who very realistically will face eviction shortly and a very substantial number of republican senators (and no democratic ones) are for letting this happen.


The senators are not responsible for shutting down the economies of the states, which is causing millions of Americans to loose their jobs and homes. The governors, mayors, county judges and managers and local public health administrators are responsible, and they need to be held accountable.
#15111126
So another week, here's where we stand.

Image

And a little new from Europe that I doubt most here in the US will have heard.

Thousands protest in Berlin against coronavirus restrictions

    Thousands protested Germany’s coronavirus restrictions Saturday in a Berlin demonstration marking what organizers called “the end of the pandemic” - a declaration that comes just as authorities are voicing increasing concerns about an uptick in new infections.

    With few masks in sight, a dense crowd marched through downtown Berlin from the Brandenburg Gate.

    Protesters who came from across the country held up homemade signs with slogans like “Corona, false alarm,” “We are being forced to wear a muzzle,” “Natural defense instead of vaccination” and “We are the second wave.”

    They chanted, “We’re here and we’re loud, because we are being robbed of our freedom!”

    Police used bullhorns to chide participants to adhere to social distancing rules and to wear masks, apparently with little success. They tweeted that they drew up a criminal complaint against the rally’s organizer for failing to enforce hygiene rules, then said shortly afterward that the organizer had ended the march.

    Police estimated about 17,000 people turned out. The demonstrators were kept apart from counterprotesters, some of whom chanted “Nazis out!”

    Protesters continued to a subsequent rally on a boulevard running through the city’s Tiergarten park, which police estimated drew 20,000 people. Police declared that event over as organizers again failed to get demonstrators to wear masks or keep their distance.

    Protests against anti-virus restrictions in Germany have drawn a variety of attendees, including conspiracy theorists and right-wing populists.

    Unlike the U.S., Brazil and Britain, Germany’s government has been praised worldwide for its management of the pandemic. The country’s death toll - just over 9,150 people out of more than 210,670 confirmed virus cases as of Saturday - is five times less than Britain’s, which has a smaller population.

    The German government has been easing lockdown measures since late April but social distancing rules remain, as does a requirement to wear masks on public transit and in shops.

    Officials have been warning against complacency as the number of new COVID-19 cases has crept up recently. Amid concerns about residents bringing home infections from summer trips abroad, officials introduced free tests for people entering the country.

    Germany’s national disease control center registered 955 new cases Friday, a high figure by recent standards.

    “Thousands of #covidiots are celebrating themselves in Berlin as ‘the second wave,’ without distancing, without masks,” tweeted Saskia Esken, a co-leader of the Social Democrats, the junior party in Germany’s governing coalition.

    “They are not just endangering our health, they are endangering our success against the pandemic and for the revival of the economy, education and society. Irresponsible!”
#15111135
Hey Doug. So this is not about death, disability and despair why not make a little racetrack graphic and put all the major nations on it? You know. Since obviously republicans do not give a rat's ass about the hundreds and thousands of people they are killing for money why not give us a nice graphic at which to look.

I do not care what is happening in Germany, though I would tell you that their number of positive cases would not match for a few hours in Florida. That does not at all matter to me. Unlike you, what matters to me is that every minute of every day someone is dying of this disease and the overwhelming majority of these cases in unnecessary and could have been prevented by prompt action from the Republican government in power now.

But you go ahead Doug. Nothing like a bad example to let others know just exactly what you think about the death and disability that is wracking our country.

Despicable attitude but all to common these days.
#15111155
@Doug64

You should add the number of people who have lost health insurance in the USA because of the recession caused by the Trump virus.

And do that for every country. For Canada and similarly developed countries, you can just put zero.
#15111362
And teachers’ unions continue to make their in kind contributions to the Trump campaign as they try to convince the public to ignore the science when it comes to the risk to children and that teachers aren’t essential workers.

Teachers unions hold anti-reopening rallies, threaten 'safety strikes'

    Going back to school after a lazy summer can be a struggle for many children, but this year the biggest challenge may be convincing the teachers to return.

    With the fall semester just a few weeks away, teachers’ unions in many communities are setting up a major test for President Trump as he pushes for schools to reopen, holding anti-reopening rallies and warning that school districts that opt for in-person learning could be hit by “safety strikes.”

    “Schools haven’t even opened, and yet these demonstrations are happening,” said Jonathan Butcher, senior education policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation. “It’s become a call to protest, and that is what unions are built to do. They’re built to design collective action, and so that’s what they’ve opened the door for.”

    Demand Safe Schools, a coalition of a dozen urban teachers’ unions and the Democratic Socialists of America, offered Monday a taste of things to come by holding multiple events across the nation in opposition to local reopening plans as part of a National Day of Resistance.

    Their demands included “police-free schools,” a moratorium on vouchers, lower class sizes, greater access to online learning, and “no reopening until the scientific data supports it.”

    Among the organizations participating was the Chicago Teachers Union, where organizers held a rally against Mayor Lori Lightfoot’s plan for a mix of remote and classroom learning, followed by a caravan of cars decorated with messages such as, “We want to teach not die.”

    “You cannot go to the beach in the city of Chicago,” said Chicago Teachers Union president Jesse Sharkey. “You cannot drink indoors in the city of Chicago, but they’re going to send hundreds of thousands of students into school buildings, hundreds to a building … We’re not going to stand for it.”

    Last week, the American Federation of Teachers sent a shot across the bow at its biennial convention by preapproving “safety strikes,” calling them a “last resort” against “unsafe school reopening plans.”

    “Let’s be clear: Just as we have done with our healthcare workers, we will fight on all fronts for the safety of students and their educators,” AFT President Randi Weingarten said in a July 28 speech. “But if the authorities don’t protect the safety and health of those we represent and those we serve, as our executive council voted last week, nothing is off the table — not advocacy or protests, negotiations, grievances or lawsuits or, if necessary and authorized by a local union, as a last resort, safety strikes.”

    The warning comes with Mr. Trump and Education Secretary Betsy DeVos calling for schools to reopen in-person, backed by Dr. Richard Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who told Congress last week that “the public health and interest of the students in the nation right now is to get a quality education and face-to-face learning.”

    The AFT and National Education Association have cited concerns about rising COVID-19 infection rates as they push for the passage of the HEROES Act, the $3 trillion House bill that would deliver $90 billion for K-12 public schools as part of a “state fiscal stabilization fund.”

    “We may have to pink slip, we may have to lay off massive amounts of teachers, massive amounts of school support staff,” NEA president Lily Eskelen Garcia told Fox4 in Kansas City. “Now what do you do? We can’t figure this out. Luckily, there is a cure to this, and it’s funding. What we’re asking for is the same kind of emergency funding they gave to businesses a few months ago. We need that for our public schools.”

    Mr. Trump tweeted again Monday his support for reopening, tweeting, “Open the Schools,” while his foes on social media noted that his son Barron Trump will be unable to attend in-person after health officials in Montgomery County, Maryland, banned school reopenings until Oct. 1.

    That includes private schools like St. Andrews Episcopal School in Potomac, which the president’s son attends.

    “As soon as it’s safe for Barron, we’ll send our kids, too. But not until that day,” tweeted Huffington Post blogger Bryan Behar.

    The risk for the teachers’ unions is that they may overplay their hand, alienating parents worried that their children are falling behind with the distancing-learning approach undertaken earlier this year by virtually all schools at the height of the epidemic.

    Dr. Scott Atlas, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and former neurology chief at Stanford Medical Center, accused the unions of “panicking,” arguing that the scientific approach would be to protect the small number of at-risk teachers while allowing students to return in-person.

    “It’s outrageous what they’re saying. Contemplating a strike is outrageous,” Dr. Atlas said. “In the NEA’s mission statement, they stress how essential they are, and they are essential. Step up and open the schools.”

    Richard Berman, executive director at the anti-union Center for Union Facts, accused the teachers’ unions of taking advantage of the crisis to push their political agenda.

    “Even in these unprecedented times, we can still count on teachers’ unions to do what they do best: Put their own interests ahead of their hostages — students and parents,” said Mr. Berman in an email.

    He noted that the United Teachers Los Angeles Union, an AFT affiliate, called last month for the reopening to be tied to shutting down publicly funded charter schools, Medicare for All, defunding the police, housing for the homeless and a statewide wealth tax.

    “It’s just another example of how unions use the pandemic to push political agendas,” Mr. Berman said.

    Ms. Weingarten, AFT president, said the Los Angeles union’s stance was “not a national position,” insisting the union wants to see schools reopened, but safely.

    “We said really clearly and have said every single day, we know our kids need to be in school buildings, we need to make it safe, and there are ways of doing it,” said Ms. Weingarten. “You have to reduce the community spread in a community, you have to have the safety guardrails including testing, masks, physical distancing, cleaning and ventilation, and you have to be able to pay for that.”

    Dr. Atlas, who has championed reopening the schools, argued that the science doesn’t support the union position, pointing to CDC data showing that children face far less risk from COVID-19 than they do from the seasonal flu.

    “Switzerland did a contact tracing study and they showed that of all the sources of cases, 0.3% are from schools,” said Dr. Atlas. “There is overwhelming evidence that we must open the schools, and that is the president’s policy, as he has said many times. We are the only nation in the Western world who are hysterical about reopening schools.”

    As far as the risks to teachers, Dr. Atlas said that 92% of K-12 public educators are under the age of 60 — and 50% are under the age of 41 — meaning that nearly all fall well below the at-risk age range.

    “I think the teachers union, I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they’re afraid, and if they’re afraid, we can accommodate the high-risk teachers,” he said. “They can social distance, and number two, if they’re still afraid, they can teach from home. That’s not a reason to lock down the schools.”

    He also pointed to harms to children from staying out of school, including child abuse cases no longer being reported by teachers.

    “We have to remember closing the schools is seriously harmful to children, and we have to remember that there’s nothing more essential than opening our schools and educating our children,” Dr. Atlas said. “Nothing.”
#15111366
Way to go Doug64. You are still advocating for more deaths. You should stop. It is killing red-staters more and Blue. But as a republican you do not care about the death count.

But since you see this as a political rather than medical problem here is a great commercial for electing republicans to office:

Booming voice:

UNDER TRUMP's LEADERSHIP THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS CONTINUE.

Pan to a scientist and head of the CDC:

The CDC now projects the death toll in the U.S. could hit 180,000 by August 22. Dr. Deborah Birx, the Trump administration’s coronavirus coordinator, said “anything is possible” when asked about former Food and Drug Administration commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb’s prediction that virus deaths could top 300,000 by the end of the year.


Now that's leadership for you.

I'm Donald Trump and I ignored this message.
#15111371
@Drlee Apparently the CDC you’re happy to quote also is “advocating for more deaths,” since this is what they have to say about reopening schools:

The Importance of Reopening America’s Schools this Fall

    As families and policymakers make decisions about their children returning to school, it is important to consider the full spectrum of benefits and risks of both in-person and virtual learning options. Parents are understandably concerned about the safety of their children at school in the wake of COVID-19. The best available evidence indicates if children become infected, they are far less likely to suffer severe symptoms. Death rates among school-aged children are much lower than among adults. At the same time, the harms attributed to closed schools on the social, emotional, and behavioral health, economic well-being, and academic achievement of children, in both the short- and long-term, are well-known and significant. Further, the lack of in-person educational options disproportionately harms low-income and minority children and those living with disabilities. These students are far less likely to have access to private instruction and care and far more likely to rely on key school-supported resources like food programs, special education services, counseling, and after-school programs to meet basic developmental needs.

    Aside from a child’s home, no other setting has more influence on a child’s health and well-being than their school. The in-person school environment does the following:

    • provides educational instruction;
    • supports the development of social and emotional skills;
    • creates a safe environment for learning;
    • addresses nutritional needs; and
    • facilitates physical activity.

That’s just the introduction, you can go to the link for more details on all of this. Here’s the CDC’s final conclusion:

    Schools are an important part of the infrastructure of our communities, as they provide safe, supportive learning environments for students, employ teachers and other staff, and enable parents, guardians, and caregivers to work. Schools also provide critical services that help meet the needs of children and families, especially those who are disadvantaged, through supporting the development of social and emotional skills, creating a safe environment for learning, identifying and addressing neglect and abuse, fulfilling nutritional needs, and facilitating physical activity. School closure disrupts the delivery of in-person instruction and critical services to children and families, which has negative individual and societal ramifications. The best available evidence from countries that have opened schools indicates that COVID-19 poses low risks to school-aged children, at least in areas with low community transmission, and suggests that children are unlikely to be major drivers of the spread of the virus. Reopening schools creates opportunity to invest in the education, well-being, and future of one of America’s greatest assets—our children—while taking every precaution to protect students, teachers, staff and all their families.
#15111373
With the economy tanking; I have the feeling our "leaders" will decide to bailout and save landlords and corporations before actual people. Similar to 2008.


Sadly, I think they will. The republican party is "negotiating" as much for the wealthy as they can get right now. Equally sadly is that most middle class republicans are not smart enough to understand what is happening to them.
#15111385
Pants-of-dog wrote: caused by the Trump virus.

Here we see again the Left's pathetic fantasy world. We can't prove for certain that this was started deliberately by China's National Socialist government, but we can be certain that it wasn't started by Trump. Trump just doesn't have the scientific / technical nohow to create, distribute and launch a biological virus attack. Neither do any of his children. I know the Trump organisation has diversified into various product and services but it hasn't got the technical expertise or the infrastructure to carry out such an attack. There is no chance of Trump getting America's military to go along with this either.

No Trump could not have done Covid-19, however much the Left would like to think so.
#15111389
@Doug64

No one (especially the teachers) is ignoring science or wants schools to stay closed. Teachers want to go back to work and teach in their classrooms. They just want to do it SAFELY. Teachers want kids to go to school SAFELY. Parents want kids to go to school SAFELY.

At this point, reopening schools without a plan to do so SAFELY, is equivalent to killing a small percentage of children and a larger percentage of teachers and older parents and caregivers.

If it was not for the fact that schools fill a hole that would otherwise be filled by a string and effective social safety net, it would be a no-brainer to decide to keep schools closed. But since the US is still a developing country, schools are needed to provide things like decent nutrition and assault counseling for kids.

I am glad that I am not a parent of a school age kid in the US.
#15111400
Pants-of-dog wrote:
At this point, reopening schools without a plan to do so SAFELY, is equivalent to killing a small percentage of children and a larger percentage of teachers and older parents and caregivers.



:knife:

CDC warns of 'significant public health consequences' if schools don't reopen in the fall


A top Centers for Disease Control and Prevention official warned Congress on Friday of "significant public health consequences" if schools don't reopen in the fall. "It's important to realize that it's in the public health's best interest for K-12 students to get back into face-to-face learning," CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield testified before the House Select Subcommittee during a hearing on containing the coronavirus outbreak in the United States.
#15111401
@Pants-of-dog

If keeping schools closed is such a no-brainer, then why do so many other countries have their schools open with no real issues? And if teachers want to go back to work, why are so many of them trying to limit their daily online time? Basically, teachers’ unions are insisting that—unlike police, fire fighters, many factory workers, warehouse workers and delivery drivers, agricultural workers—the teachers belonging to the unions aren’t essential workers and so shouldn’t be required to work even if the risk is somewhat more elevated. Democrats agree. Many parents don’t.
#15111404
@Sivad

Do you have an argument?

————————-

@Doug64

Other countries do not have the ongoing debacle of deaths and infections that places like the USA do. Or these other countries are developed countries with actual health care programs and ways of tracking infection, neither of which the US has.

And if you are going to link to an article, please quote the relevant text and show how it supports your argument, especially since that link just takes me to a page asking me for money.

And I think yiur interpretation of what teachers unions want is incorrect.
#15111406
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Do you have an argument?



you couldn't recognize an argument to save your life let alone follow one.
#15111444
Pants-of-dog wrote:Other countries do not have the ongoing debacle of deaths and infections that places like the USA do.

When it comes to the US you aren’t really talking about a country, but a continent (or at least, a significant chunk of one). That’s why my weekly report covers all the states as well as the US as a whole. Not that that matters, because ...

Or these other countries are developed countries with actual health care programs and ways of tracking infection, neither of which the US has.

... children, especially young children, aren’t at risk. We closed the schools because children are usually more vulnerable to epidemics than adults, but the Wuhan virus is of those that tests the rule. If we’d known that in the beginning, we probably wouldn’t have closed the schools at all. And for the adults running the schools, teachers and school administrators are essential workers, just like police and factory and agricultural workers. The teachers should certainly have an easier time maintaining social distance from the other adults, and at least the younger children don’t appear to be a threat to the adults. So teachers are better off than other essential workers.

And I think yiur interpretation of what teachers unions want is incorrect.

Considering the current science and the calls by some unions to restrict teachers’ time teaching online, I don’t really see any other interpretation.
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