[XogGyux]

Forget narrative, Xog.

This thread is a great place to drop all your pipette spam, mentionning how "well equipped" rich countries are with all their huge stocks of medical equipment.

Pipettes-R-Us is waiting for your videos and patient explanation about why these are so very important in maintaining a modern, capitalist health system like ours.

Do you have anything relevant to say or you are just venting?

[Donna]

He's pointing out the irony of believing that having the industrial capacity to make earth-killing automobiles and life-saving ventilators in the same factory is what really makes a medical powerhouse.

[XogGyux]

He's pointing out the irony of believing that having the industrial capacity to make earth-killing automobiles and life-saving ventilators in the same factory is what really makes a medical powerhouse.

The earth is not alive.
People do not create cars to "kill" the earth, environmental dmg is a byproduct, a byproduct that also exists when we fart btw although to a much tinier magnitude.
People are not going to give up technology, that is a hard fact. If he really cared about the Earth he can start by shifting the attitude towards what we can do to make our impact less severe while not going backwards to pre-industrial times.
Technology is our "friend", not our enemy, we can use it to help the world.
Call me a skeptic but I don't think that's what he meant anyway.

[Donna]

The earth is not alive.
People do not create cars to "kill" the earth, environmental dmg is a byproduct, a byproduct that also exists when we fart btw although to a much tinier magnitude.
People are not going to give up technology, that is a hard fact. If he really cared about the Earth he can start by shifting the attitude towards what we can do to make our impact less severe while not going backwards to pre-industrial times.
Technology is our "friend", not our enemy, we can use it to help the world.
Call me a skeptic but I don't think that's what he meant anyway.

I take it you're not much for continental philosophy lol

[snapdragon]

Sweden's attitude, to which the health chief stubbornly sticking to at the moment, was to allow the virus to spread through the population in order to create a herd immunity. At the same time, they proposed to protect the elderly, sick and infirm.

It hasn't worked.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ry/sweden/

By looking at the graph, you can see how deaths skyrocketed.

I don't see anything to back up Boycey's claim they are stabilising

[Godstud]

Sweden: 22 Scientists Say Coronavirus Strategy Has Failed As Deaths Top 1,000
Sweden's relatively relaxed approach to controlling the spread of the coronavirus has come under fire in international media and from many locals in the capital Stockholm, where more than half the country's deaths have been recorded. Now, 22 researchers have publicly criticized the strategy and called on politicians to make changes.

The criticism comes as the Swedish death total hits new heights. 1,033 people have now died from COVID-19 in Sweden, according to the Swedish Public Health Agency. That's an increase of 114 in the past 24 hours. The daily update also confirms that 11,445 people have tested positive in Sweden with 915 receiving or having received intensive care treatment.

According to Aftonbladet, Jan Lötvall, a professor at the University of Gothenburg, said that Swedish people have not understood the seriousness of the situation because they have received unclear messaging from health authorities and elected officials.

The researchers now want rapid change. They suggest that schools and restaurants should be closed as in Finland. In addition, healthcare professionals working with the elderly must use proper infection control equipment and a mass testing of health personnel must be carried out.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... 5abe977b6c

[B0ycey]

@snapdragon

The graphs and number show cases are levelling out. There is no point looking at the top graph which can only go up and instead look at cases and fatalities which are plateauing.

Besides, it doesn't matter. Europe is beginning to loosen lockdown measures and are on their way to adopt the Swedish model even though they still have cases as just shutting down the economy without a plan to get out of it has dire consequences. In the UK is costs £100bn a month to retain lockdown and the longer it goes on the harder it is to kickstart spending habits and retain jobs. In fact it is believed that a significant amount of "current" jobs in the UK are now regarded as "Ghost Jobs" because the are in essence lost from lockdown but retained whilst furlough measure are in place.

Also there is nothing different to Swedes when compared to Americans in regards to population behaviour. Although it does help if communication is clear in order to get that behavour. It has been obvious for a while now that Trump doesn't have a plan and their populous is confused to conflicting messages whereas Swedes in general support their government and their policies as they are based on individual responsibility and as such are easier to retain and maintain. Italy for example today are having an issue with mental health...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52400085/coronavirus-lockdown-s-heavy-toll-on-italy-s-mental-health

...because they went for the strictest form of lockdown in Europe.

[QatzelOk]

Sweden: 22 Scientists Say Coronavirus Strategy Has Failed As Deaths Top 1,000

In a typical year, 3,400 Swedes die of flu and related morbidities.

Sweden has decided to go all in, while "lockdown" countries (who were willing to suspend all the civilian liberties we thought were guaranteed in democracies) will experience flu deaths (and covid deaths) over a longer timeframe. We will catch up to Sweden. Obviously, Sweden was less worried about "flatenning the curve" because it has more surge capacity, whereas we (in most Western countries) have been cutting back on social services in order to transfer trillions to corrupt banksters. Some of these corrupt instituions that have robbed us will be getting more trillions during the lockdown - a totalitarian dream for corrupt corporations.

Quebec, with a lower population than Sweden, is already at over 500 deaths (of mostly seniors on their deathbeds, just like Sweden).

But what really proves Godstud's point (that we should panic and stay locked down) is: Body bags, death counts, infection rates, cases, and more cases.

The same science-illiterates (but technology-worshippers) who are scared of COVIDs are in now way afraid of all the environmental damage that humanity is spawning. Corporations don't want us to make that connection. They prefer to sell us vaccines through fear and fabricated panic.

[fokker]

Some EU countries are lifting restrictions already as they managed the pandemic well - Austria, Germany or the scaremongering done by media never materialized - eastern EU. There is no good reason to keep the central-eastern EU in lock down any further. Daily cases are slowly dropping, death rate is very low. They haven't experienced the death rates seen in the west. The situation is very different from the US, UK, Spain etc. and people are wondering why the fuss about it... It is expected that cross border travel will be resumed within a month so vacations abroad will be possible in the summer.

The Swedish model clearly didn't work for the UK. In some countries for some reason the infection spreads more rapidly. They ended up in the same situation like Italy when it was preventable as they had ample time to introduce restrictions.

[Godstud]

In a typical year, 3,400 Swedes die of flu and related morbidities.

1,000 die in a month, and it would be far worse if there were not other factors at play.

But what really proves Godstud's point (that we should panic and stay locked down) is: Body bags, death counts, infection rates, cases, and more cases.

Yes. Facts and details, matter. Your saying we should panic is just typical trolling childishness.

Incidentally, to all those fucking morons(you know who you are), who said Covid was no worse than the flu: more people are now in the hospital in 1 month, than in all last year, from the flu.

[Tainari88]

1,000 die in a month, and it would be far worse if there were not other factors at play.

Yes. Facts and details, matter. Your saying we should panic is just typical trolling childishness.

Incidentally, to all those fucking morons(you know who you are), who said Covid was no worse than the flu: more people are now in the hospital in 1 month, than in all last year, from the flu.

You mean the ones who need to make a score at the local drug dealers pad and can't because of the restrictions and not having money to score the drugs? Lol.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I think it's fine to compare countries as a first approximation if people keep in mind that, as long as travel is not restricted, outbreaks can happen across borders. The best interactive site I found to compare countries is 91-divoc.com.

Here are the Nordics (excl. Finland and Iceland because they are right at the bottom of the graphs) together with Switzerland (which has followed a similar trajectory to Sweden until recently). All data normalised by population and starting at the day the first death was recorded.

Weekly rolling average of new deaths per day:


Total deaths:


---------------------------------------------------

Almost as informative is data on hospitalisation/ICU usage. This Finnish epidemiologist has posted some charts for the Nordics yesterday:


So Sweden looks clearly worse overall, but Sweden's growth in both hospitalisation rate and ICU use has been levelling off recently as well.

For people interested in worldwide data, this FT reporter posts regular updates on various indicators, e.g. hospitalisation rates in Stockholm and all regions of Belgium now in decline:

[snapdragon]

@snapdragon

The graphs and number show cases are levelling out. There is no point looking at the top graph which can only go up and instead look at cases and fatalities which are plateauing.

You need to look at both of them objectively.

Besides, it doesn't matter.

Why on earth doesn't it matter?

Europe is beginning to loosen lockdown measures and are on their way to adopt the Swedish model even though they still have cases as just shutting down the economy without a plan to get out of it has dire consequences. In the UK is costs £100bn a month to retain lockdown and the longer it goes on the harder it is to kickstart spending habits and retain jobs. In fact it is believed that a significant amount of "current" jobs in the UK are now regarded as "Ghost Jobs" because the are in essence lost from lockdown but retained whilst furlough measure are in place.

I don't see any signs of the lockdown being ended. I see signs of it being cautiously relaxed.

Also there is nothing different to Swedes when compared to Americans in regards to population behaviour. Although it does help if communication is clear in order to get that behavour. It has been obvious for a while now that Trump doesn't have a plan and their populous is confused to conflicting messages whereas Swedes in general support their government and their policies as they are based on individual responsibility and as such are easier to retain and maintain. Italy for example today are having an issue with mental health...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52400085/coronavirus-lockdown-s-heavy-toll-on-italy-s-mental-health

...because they went for the strictest form of lockdown in Europe.

Sweden hasn't long been out of a long, cold dark winter.

People are beginning to mingle much more, especially in the cities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52395866

A very fair report.

[Rich]

I think my stances often confuse people, because I base my views on what is right rather than partisanship. So I supported the removal of Saddam because it was the right thing to do, not because I believed that Bush or Blair were stable geniuses, incapable of ever mouthing a falsehood.

So what I care about is the right strategy to deal with the Xi virus, not how its leading proponents arrived at it. I strongly suspect that Sweden's strategy was born out of White guilt. The problem with lock downs (from a Liberal point of view) is that Muslims and other problematic communities just won't keep to the rules. I think they've already announced in France that Muslims will not be subjected to any penalties for breaking the rules. This combined with all the other health and social problems caused by their communities culture's leads to much higher death rates in these communities. That then becomes a problem of how to blame White people. So I strongly suspect that not having the lock down was meant to avoid resentment against minorities who wouldn't follow it.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

The media finally got round to looking at all cause mortality in a systematic manner. FT seems to have the most comprehensive data so far and is working on getting more. Full article here.

Countries:

Cities/regions:

I hadn't realised how bad Ecuador is.

[wat0n]

The media finally got round to looking at all cause mortality in a systematic manner. FT seems to have the most comprehensive data so far and is working on getting more. Full article here.

Countries:

Cities/regions:

I hadn't realised how bad Ecuador is.

Guayaquil would look even worse if normalized by population.

Still, those plots are just one side of the story. It's unclear if those excess deaths arise directly from the pandemic or if there are other factors involved (e.g. maybe people prefer not to seek medical attention due to the virus, and thus their mortality increases too) - but it's most definitely a piece of information to consider.

And most importantly, will there be any deaths arising from the containment measures and the resulting economic damage in the long run? I don't think we are at a stage where we can answer this question yet.

[Godstud]

And most importantly, will there be any deaths arising from the containment measures and the resulting economic damage in the long run?

The deaths from containment measures are insignificant, and over-blown by idiots trying to make an argument from nothing(See Anti-vaxxers. It's the same schtick.).

The economic damage would have been far worse had containment measures not been enacted. People were already social distancing so most of the containment measures were already been implemented by intelligent people who saw that, and so the economic damage was inevitable.

[wat0n]

The deaths from containment measures are insignificant, and over-blown by idiots trying to make an argument from nothing(See Anti-vaxxers. It's the same schtick.).

The economic damage would have been far worse had containment measures not been enacted. People were already social distancing so most of the containment measures were already been implemented by intelligent people who saw that, and so the economic damage was inevitable.

I don't think one can really know this. I recall seeing a paper saying that the lockdowns would cause cancer deaths 5 years down the road because some people aren't getting treatment.

I tend to believe we don't really know what will the consequences of this be.

[Godstud]

Yes, it's just what every economist has said. The initial economic downturn and stock market nose-dives were a No-Confidence vote, by the marketplace, in the US government. The US (federal) government gave no indication that it knew what it was doing, and did not inspire confidence in any markets, thereby removing any mitigation.

I recall seeing a paper saying that the lockdowns would cause cancer deaths 5 years down the road because some people aren't getting treatment.

Please find that paper. I highly doubt this is true.

I tend to believe we don't really know what will the consequences of this be.

We do know what the consequences would be if we had done nothing. It's far worse than simple economic damage.

[wat0n]

Yes, it's just what every economist has said. The initial economic downturn and stock market nose-dives were a No-Confidence vote, by the marketplace, in the US government. The US (federal) government gave no indication that it knew what it was doing, and did not inspire confidence in any markets, thereby removing any mitigation.

Please find that paper. I highly doubt this is true.

We do know what the consequences would be if we had done nothing. It's far worse than simple economic damage.

I was actually wrong, it was just an educated guess by one of the UK cancer experts:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/725505/cor ... ients-die/

If you think about it, it isn't that crazy. There must be patients with non urgent conditions who are not being treated now, and who may pay the price for that. Timing sometimes does matter.

The issue with your last paragraph is that economic conditions are a determinant of the healthcare system in the long run. This doesn't necessarily mean lockdowns are wrong - but it does mean these need to be used wisely rather than widely.

Governments that moved quickly to do just that have been able to take a softer economic hit, and will then see a softer hit in their healthcare systems too. Those who didn't will face a steeper cost, either by mass lockdowns or by big bodycounts due to the overwhelming of ICU capacity.