Abortion views: Pro-choice or Pro-life? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#14733742
Look, all I know is that I want to see both black and white babies aborted equally


This makes no sense as a general statement, and is a testament to irrational racial views. You want to see black and white babies from Senegal to Germany aborted equally? For the sake of what? Quota? The socio-economic circumstances differ greatly. Perhaps black and white babies within Germany or within Senegal. But even then they will be segregated into their own communities (hey it is you who promotes segregation, safe spaces, etc), and the circumstances will differ, sometimes drastically. You must keep policies confined to appropriate scope for maximum effect.
#14733781
Actually i agree with @LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX here.
The world is currently going through, or better say about to go through, a resources crisis, where we have several problems first being energy crisis as the world either keeps going as it is and destroy the planet for everyone and everything or turn into cleaner energy which is currently very hard, and to make it worse oil and fossil fuel is about to run out. And the second problem is fresh water where the world will run into a wall with it in the next decades.
And there is the waste problem which is growing every day.

Now the first obvious solution is to consume less and save energy, resources, and water to guarentee a safe and stable conversion from fossil fuel to cleaner energy sources, and to consume less fresh water until we can develop an effective system to convert salt water into usable one, and ofcourse consume less wasteful good until we can converge fully into producing fully recycable products in an effective and efficient way without any major and sudden change that would collapse world economy.

Ofcourse there are many more problems that we are or will face in the next period. Including food supplies which is also going to be a huge problem soon.
And looking at the numbers, European and north American individuals consume as much as 30-40 individual of other countries around the world.
And use more fossil fuel per capita than all others, and produce the most pollution, and the most waste.
So the first obvious solution is to cut down on birth rates of Europeans and North Americans and fast, preferably even put a quota on birth like that of china where a person needs to pay extra taxes and contributions to have more children.
( i would add China to pollution and waste, but a quota system is already in place and many more restrictions are being applied periodically. So thats one down. )

And also preferably putting a quota on fuel and goods consumption in Europe and North America to reduce both pollution and waste.

And for the riches part, that german baby is actually going to consume more riches and waste more wealth than any other in the world. And civilization, going into a critical stage of its life, can not afford such waste on European and north American spoiled babies, thus should cut them short of resources to be able to balance its consumption and solve its problems and ultimatly, survive the next period.
#14733815
No way that german baby will design and build the best most eco-friendly car, the best windmill generator, the most efficient solar array, the best asteroid early warning and deflection system etc...

If we commit to your stances, then living in caves would be the most beneficial scenario of all (it's not).

This world is meant to be consumed. It's how smartly you do so. There are trillions of worlds, we will consume them all.
#14733816
Really ? will he ?
As far as i can see it, most scientists are now being born in Asia, and most new achievements are being pushed in Asia not Europe.
The only thing that Europe and America now does is consuming and ruining this world stupidly and without any consideration to anything or anyone alive.
#14733836
LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX wrote:You're totally right, Igor. Abort the white babies because they take up more resources. Should have thought about that, thanks for helping me clarify my position.
The biggest environmental damage has been done in the third world. Population explosion, disregard for the environment. Look at India and China their people in cities live in smog. If anything the third world is the biggest drain on the planet.
#14733853
Considering the consumption of each.
First world countries consume 40 times the amount of third world per capita.
So if we considered there are nearly a billion people in first world countries. Times 40, thats 40 billion people, in total 8 times larger than that of the rest of the world combined. by simple math.
#14733935
Right POD. Very true.

Look at this thread. Look how quickly we got off-topic looking for some obscure justification for what we all seem to think is an argument about two bad options. I will dismiss the racist arguments out of hand because racists are simply stupid people. It is not the lack of moral integrity but the simple lack of intelligence they display.

That said.

At the end of the day it is about ownership of ones body. That, to me, trumps all. Besides. As I said earlier. Men have a nearly absolute choice about their child being aborted. They can not have one in the first place.

The Christian argument begins and ends with the issue of adultery/fornication. After those admonitions have been ignored the rest is a mere quibble.
#14733954
I would add that when it comes to the bodily autonomy argument, this extends only as far as when the child is thought to become reasonably viable. Because both sides are trying to argue that the developing child has personhood that warrants its own consideration of bodily autonomy. So it then becomes a matter of whose bodily autonomy trumps whose. Technically one doesn't own one's child, the idea theoretically under the bodily autonomy point is that the child would be removed, which of course depending on stage of development would mean it would perish, so we skip that step and simply use abortion.
But should the child be seen as viable, there isn't an a case within the bodily autonomy point to abort the child, it would have to be delivered, that to what extent a child is viable and at what stage and whether its enough that it should override someones decision for a late term abortion could be somewhat arbitrary as is the cutoff limit to having an abortion.
This sense of bodily autonomy is clearly liberal in origin since it's been the basis to argue for women's humanity in their own right.

Though there is case made to the nature of laws being drawn around our organic physicality and it's implications, it's not clear valuing bodily autonomy makes for a consistent and unopposed right.
AGAINST THE RIGHT TO BODILY INTEGRITY: OF CYBORGS AND HUMAN RIGHTS GOWRI RAMACHANDRAN†
It also seems there is a basis for abortion based on one's health, in that abortion is less of a risk to one's health than childbirth.
The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States.
A point that, a person should have autonomy in regards to their own health and well being being the important factor. Though the oath of doctors is an emphasis on do no harm (the more enduring, measurable elements), this takes a hands off approach. Where one might criticize that doctors have a positive duty to their patients to help them avoid harm. That one wouldn't ethically allow a patient to endure a illness if they had moral qualms around how they got the illness.
The defense of the conscientious objector comes in the form of emphasizing the harm done to the developing child as reason enough to not be ethically obliged to perform it.

To which questions of what makes a valid conscientious refusal come up.
I can't find it now, but I remember one paper asserting that many people's refusal wasn't of personal conviction but was often one of career concerns since performing it was stigmatized in California. Their solution was that only those that have met a burden of proof of personal conviction should be ethically/professionally allowed to object to provide such services. In the same way that we it wasn't accepted at face value that a citizen was a conscientious objector out of personal conviction to violence as a means to not participate in the war, but had to be proven.
ANother matter comes in to what degree does one's personal conviction stand against their professional responsbilities, this is particularly emhpasized in places where services are limited (ie rural).
This thesis recommends respecting an HCP's right to conscientiously object, when that objection is based on a core value or belief (as previously defined) and puts the onus on that HCP to explain his or her reason for objecting.


I think for some, their reasons for opposing abortion can often stem from their moralizing attitudes towards female sexuality. In the same way that those who are pro-abortion aren't concerned with the philosophical arguments but put blame on an unsupportive system that doesn't promote people's capacity to raise their families and then blames them when real world considerations drive them to choose abortion.
Ellul: what I learned from Marx
The third element of his thought which Ellul drew from Marx was “the decision always to be on the side of the poor in this world”. This doesn’t mean simply those who are poor in cash terms, but those who are alienated from the conditions for modern life: what Marx terms the proletariat.

Above all, Ellul understood this in terms of the ability to sustain family life. He argues that, contrary to certain statements in the Communist Manifesto, Marx was not anti-family. Rather, he was hostile towards the fact that the bourgeoisie had turned the family into a privilege. What was unacceptable for Marx was not the existence of the family, but that a majority of people were prevented from enjoying the same family life that the bourgeois minority enjoyed. For Ellul:

The ideal, though unattainable in a capitalist society, is to form a happy and balanced couple and to have happy and balanced children. To be poor is to be unable to have such a family.

Moralizing unconcerned or opposed to difficulties to materially support and raise said child. To many, they'd simply be considered wowsers who should not be paid much attention. In some association comes demonizing women's sexuality, seeking to restrict their capacity to use contraceptives and then expect women to simply accept the primary task of raising kids in economies that no longer maintain a reality of the middle class breadwinner for the average family.
As another note, the anti-abortion movement is evolving, attempting to co-op rhetoric of being for women by reframing abortion as a health issue that harms women physically and psychologically, thus positioning opposition to abortion as in the interest and well being of women's health.
#14733987
Empiricism inevitably makes me pro-choice, but I am positively leaning towards pro-life, so to find a balance between the 2 I would argue that legally people should have the right to abort but that it should be discouraged and frowned upon more than it currently is.
#14734013
Igor Antunov wrote:No way that german baby will design and build the best most eco-friendly car, the best windmill generator, the most efficient solar array, the best asteroid early warning and deflection system etc...

If we commit to your stances, then living in caves would be the most beneficial scenario of all (it's not).

This world is meant to be consumed. It's how smartly you do so. There are trillions of worlds, we will consume them all.

I miss when you used to be pro-russian, now just you pro-german, west shill.
#14734093
noemon wrote:legally people should have the right to abort but that it should be discouraged and frowned upon more than it currently is.
This. It shouldn't be the first option. We should strive to make it easy to adopt and put other options on the table. Support them, regardless of the decision they make.
#14734462
There is no harm in frowning on, or disapproving of abortion, as long as that's all you do.
If I found myself with an unwanted pregnancy I wouldn't give a flying fuck whether anyone disapproved of, or frowned upon, my choice to terminate it.
Furthermore, there is no way of putting up an embryo or foetus for adoption, so that's a pretty silly argument.

Adoption is the choice between keeping and bringing up your child, or giving it away to somebody else.

Let's not go back to the bad old days when women and girls were pretty much forced to give away their children.

edit: Picture this: Your 14 year old daughter tells you she is pregnant after taking a drop too much at a party, and having a quickie with a boy who reminded her of Justin Beiber at the time, but he's actually more like a spotty Shane MacGowan on an off day.

So... do you try to persuade her to go through the pregnancy, labour and childbirth then give the baby away? Or do you take her to the clinic for mifepristone so she can draw a line under the whole miserable episode and get on with her life?
#14735493
I am pro-life. A lot of people don't understand this but to me it is just common sense. I am morally opposed to it across the board. I also recognize that an across the board abortion ban is politically unfeasible and where it is it is generally unenforcable. There are more or equal abortions in many nations with strict abortion laws to nations without such laws. That being said my I think its so morally repugnant I'm not going to fight to keep it legal, practicality aside.

I am not a single issue voter as some people are, to the point where I am willing to always, unequivocably and without question accept whatever "lesser of two evils" is more anti-abortion.
#14735561
Pants-of-dog wrote:The real question is if a woman controls her own body or not.

If she does, she can get an abortion whenever she wants.

If she doesn't, then we should man up and at least own our sexism.

Property is not absolute, and that includes ownership of our own bodies. To give absolute ownership of their bodies to individuals would be absurd, it would mean we couldn't conscript men in to the army.
#14735564
Igor Antunov wrote:
This makes no sense as a general statement, and is a testament to irrational racial views. You want to see black and white babies from Senegal to Germany aborted equally? For the sake of what? Quota? The socio-economic circumstances differ greatly. Perhaps black and white babies within Germany or within Senegal. But even then they will be segregated into their own communities (hey it is you who promotes segregation, safe spaces, etc), and the circumstances will differ, sometimes drastically. You must keep policies confined to appropriate scope for maximum effect.

I agree we need more white women in our lives, plus I'm also Eugenics, Pro-Abortion person.
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