[MistyTiger]

Well then, parents should spend more time educating their children, rather than let the government indoctrinate them.

Very sad day for our future generation.

[MB.]

Parents of the uneducated poor are not in a position to educate their children- for the obvious reason that they are too busy working to educate them (even if they knew how to do that, which they don't). The state provides a critical service in terms of grade-school education, although in America it does a terrible job generally because "education" in the United States is essentially preparation for service in the US economy &/or Army. I imagine, now that DeVos is the education secretary, we will see a dramatic entrenchment and expansion of that position.

[Red_Army]

You're scared of something much less scary than what I'm scared of. She's a huge proponent of "alternative schools" siphoning federal money from public schools. This is going to amount to public funded religious education (especially combined with Trump's simultaneous intention to allow tax-exempt churches to politically agitate). Preparing working class kids to join the skilled working class doesn't sound nearly as bad as teaching them creationism and other junk science. In the current education system many poor children are not prepared to even acquire decent skilled jobs and instead end up working for shit money without benefits in the service industry, joining the military, or selling drugs/going to prison. A system that encourages alternatives to college education is not the end of the world.

[MB.]

Using education policy to retard your poor population through religious education will ensure that the working poor remain an underclass. I think religious education through defunded public education will produce the same results I described in the posts above.

[Red_Army]

Sure, I just don't think promoting trade schools is a bad idea nor does it retard the poor population.

[MB.]

When the purpose of promoting trade schools is to ensure a two tier system of patricians and plebeians I'm not sure how it can be defended as a reasonable system for the 21st century. The elite, who can afford it, will attend to business and law school to become members of the managerial political and finance class, while the working poor- no matter their talent, or dedication or intellect- will be saddled with crippling student loan dept or forced to work as tradesmen, effectively supplying support for the leadership elite in terms of managing their machines (luxury cars, the plumbing in their mansions, installing their HD TV, etc). To escape crippling student dept the more talented will join the army and be forced to fight for pointless imperial objectives such as Libyan and Iraqi oil. The legions of poor tradesman making up the plebian underclass also provides the army with a trained reserve of engineers and mechanics in case drafting is required to support the leadership elites imperial wars. The working plebs will be literally brainwashed into believing that this is the right and proper arrangement of society as god intended. In short, the US is headed back to a moralist, feudal economy.

[Red_Army]

Most of the tradesmen I know make far more money than me and have no student debt. Most of the college graduates I know are making less money than tradesmen and doing so while paying off debt. The lowest strata are non-college educated, non skilled laborers who currently make up the majority of high school graduates/dropouts here. The situation you describe is already the case in the US educational system - Devos's novelty is her plan to promote religious education, which can only further depress our standing in STEM achievement. I work in a Title I school and very few students from poor populations have any plans or aspirations for attending college and are in for a really rough life.

[MB.]

The situation you describe is already the case in the US educational system - Devos's novelty is her plan to promote religious education, which can only further depress our standing in STEM achievement.

I certainly agree that my description is the way the system is now. My point here is that DeVos' objective is to simplify and entrench that system. The making of money by tradesman, laughably small though it is compared to the actual income of the plutocratic elite, is perfectly fine from the perspective of the two tier system: the purpose of the system is not to have poor people but rather to make sure the 99% cannot challenge the political, financial, and managerial leadership of the actual 1% elite. Keeping STEM college graduates flooded with student debt (unless they work FOR the military-industrial complex) is perfectly reasonable from this perspective, after all, the managerial elite are not competing with STEM majors. There is a common tendency to focus on STEM while ignoring the actual driver of the US economy which is FIRE: Finance, insurance and real-estate. So long as the FIRE sectors remain the exclusive social circle of the actual power elite in the US, who cares what the plebian STEM and tradesmen are doing (mainly servicing the FIRE elite).

I would probably add Law to that acronym as well making it FLIR (which also stands for Forward Looking Infra-red).

[Red_Army]

Well I'll keep trying to teach poor kids algebra and hope for the best

[MB.]

What kind of an impact do you expect DeVos will have on your school, in terms of educational reforms? Clearly, you're expecting some kind of pro-creationism forcefeeding, but how so, and in what way? What other changes can we expect?

[One Degree]

Well I'll keep trying to teach poor kids algebra and hope for the best

This is something many educators understand that the general public does not. Even if it were possible to give everyone a college diploma, why do you believe they would enjoy that life? Why take a person who enjoys repairing things, and convince them they will be better off going to college? We are not all the same. The most lucrative position is not necessarily the best position for an individual.

Edit: We need an educational system that addresses real people, not one that is suppose to produce the ideal citizen.

[mikema63]

K-12 should teach people the general knowledge necesarry to function in the world, how to think critically about it, and give them the tools to explore the world to find their place in it.

College should teach people what they need to know to do what they have decided to do with their lives. It's a pity that the first two years of college are now about teaching people things they should've learned in highschool.

[Oxymoron]

Public Universal education is overrated.
I think they offer no skills that help kids.
99% of the core principles used in public schools including but certainly not limited to bells were designed to get kids ready to work in factories.
I think having multiple options including home schooling, apprenticeships ad others should be on the table.


Please can someone provide any evidence that compulsory universal public education is in the interest of the actual children, and not to the Democratic party?

[Red_Army]

My school district is incredibly diverse and progressive so I doubt any change will happen anytime soon. To be honest I expect most school districts to fight DeVos tooth and nail with all the power a slow moving bureaucracy with local autonomy can wield. That being said I imagine her intention is to weaken public schools by diverting funding to religious private schools. My guess is that this will not divert a lot of poor students, but it will weaken the educational ability of the neighborhood schools that become more uniform in their poverty.

[mikema63]

Please can someone provide any evidence that compulsory universal public education is in the interest of the actual children, and not to the Democratic party?

Being able to read, do simple arithmetic, knowing history, having critical thinking skills, and a general understanding of how the world and universe operates is absolutely necessary to even function in the modern world. Universal education guarantees that all citizens of the United States have access to the tools to gain these things.

[One Degree]

Please can someone provide any evidence that compulsory universal public education is in the interest of the actual children, and not to the Democratic party?

Being able to read, do simple arithmetic, knowing history, having critical thinking skills, and a general understanding of how the world and universe operates is absolutely necessary to even function in the modern world. Universal education guarantees that all citizens of the United States have access to the tools to gain these things.

I may be misunderstanding this communication, but is the underlying question; "what is our responsibility to children (parents actually) who refuse to accept an education"? Should 'compulsory' education include keeping students in school who do not want to be there and are only a detriment to the learning of others?
Should we be spending vast amounts on this problem or should we simply remove them? Alternative schools are my choice as the best solution, but this is only practical in large densely populated areas.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

The problem with DeVos isn't her support of trades schools, which is a much more popular idea among educators than one would think, but her support of privatization of the current system. It basically amounts to more defunding of schools in poorer areas, which is a problem already, more religious education, which should not be funded by taxpayer money, and more defunding of education in general, which amounts to a glorified tax cut.

[mikema63]

I may be misunderstanding this communication, but is the underlying question; "what is our responsibility to children (parents actually) who refuse to accept an education"? Should 'compulsory' education include keeping students in school who do not want to be there and are only a detriment to the learning of others?
Should we be spending vast amounts on this problem or should we simply remove them? Alternative schools are my choice as the best solution, but this is only practical in large densely populated areas.

That's a complex question best answered and studied by experts who know the relevant research about outcomes from different potential solutions. DeVos is not an expert in public school and is ideologically committed to one particular solution and not committed to making informed decisions that maximize outcomes.

[One Degree]

The problem with DeVos isn't her support of trades schools, which is a much more popular idea among educators than one would think, but her support of privatization of the current system. It basically amounts to more defunding of schools in poorer areas, which is a problem already, more religious education, which should not be funded by taxpayer money, and more defunding of education in general, which amounts to a glorified tax cut.

I basically agree with your post, but I see Federal programs in education being more of a detriment than a help overall. I have very mixed feelings about religious education. I disagree with it because I am opposed to organized religion, yet I have seen it as a viable escape for many poor students. This provides a choice of poor families to provide a different environment for their children that moves them outside the worst effects of their living environment.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

Catholic schools have had a good history of secular education, but the protestant schools have been notoriously bad at teaching science, for instance, which is one of the most important areas of education in the modern world. How can we compete in renewable energies (a huge, growing industry) if our future doesn't even believe in it? We can't rely on poaching scientists forever, especially if we defund our university system.

I basically agree with your post, but I see Federal programs in education being more of a detriment than a help overall.

I think you'd be surprised how many teachers agree with you. Never met a teacher that actually likes NCLB, for instance. The federal government has been able to skirt the separation of powers by using federal funds as a carrot.