[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

For those that don't know, HAES stands for health at any size.

Health at Every Size (HAES) is a movement that claims to "support people in adopting health habits for the sake of health and well-being (rather than weight control)."[1] Proponents aim to improve the standard of living for people who are overweight or obese by promoting healthy lifestyles and anti-discrimination efforts. Generally, these efforts do not include weight loss as a direct goal.

Despite scientific evidence to the contrary,[2] HAES advocates are highly skeptical that weight loss directly and controllably improves health.[3] The benefits of lifestyle interventions such as nutritious eating and exercise are presumed to be real, but independent of any weight loss they may cause. At the same time, HAES advocates espouse that sustained, large-scale weight loss is difficult to the point of effective impossibility for the majority of obese people. Evidence to support the view that some obese people eat little yet gain weight due to a slow metabolism is limited, and often false, as studies have shown that obese individuals incorrectly self-report calories consumed;[4] on average, obese people have a greater energy expenditure than their healthy-weight counterparts due to the energy required to maintain an increased body mass.[5][6] HAES proponents believe that health is a result of behaviors that are independent of body weight and that favouring being thin discriminates against the overweight and the obese.[7] Efforts towards such weight loss are instead held to cause rapid swings in size that inflict far worse physical and psychological damage than would fat itself.[8]

As part of the wider fat acceptance movement,[9][10] HAES includes also a significant social and psychological dimension. Proponents view the common wisdom that obesity is unhealthy as part of a general stigmatization of the obese, and especially of obese women; thus, the movement has furthermore strong connections with feminism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size

The fat acceptance movement is the general term for anybody that believes what HAES believes, so it's not quite the same thing.

Fat shaming, on the other hand, I am completely against. People have the right to destroy their own bodies if they want you, without you intervening. I also don't think it's right to psychologically abuse/bully people into losing weight. It's especially tough when you're a kid and part of your weight is due to your parents' ignorance of what a healthy diet should look like. Kids can be really cruel, and I think it's important to encourage kids to have a high self-esteem no matter what they look like.

On the other hand, some people have the strange idea that doctors encouraging people to diet and exercise is a form of fat shaming. That's called being a responsible medical practitioner. Medically I think the benefits of not being overweight can't be denied.

I do recognize that it's really hard sometimes to lose weight when there is so much ignorance propagated by the media surrounding weight loss, a lot of it funded by large food corporations, farming interests, and lobbyists. The argument can definitely be made that the intentional or not misinformation campaign surrounding food has a lot to do with the rise in obesity, so I sympathize with the motivation behind HAES. The problem is that a lot of their specific views are just wrong.

So, what do you guys think of these ideas? This topic might be a little US-centric, but I know that there is high obesity rates in other Anglo countries as well.



Edit: added link to wiki.

[mikema63]

I don't feel comfortable encouraging the idea that you can be as healthy as anyone else while being obese. It simply isn't true. I respect that weight can be incredibly difficult to control especially once your already obese, and I don't begrudge people who decide they would rather be overweight than obsessively control their diets and struggle with their bodies.

I'm fine with accepting overweight people for most things, but you take two seats you pay for two seats, your at high risk of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and will live a shorter life. People shouldn't be dicks to you for it, but it is what it is.

[snapdragon]

It's not healthy to be fat and it's wrong to give people the idea it ever can be.

[Suntzu]

One can be fat and fit, not sure about fat and healthy. I guess it depends on how fat and ones level of activity.

I find fat folk gross. Fat induced diseases should be considered self-inflicted and not cover my insurance.

[B0ycey]

I do recognize that it's really hard sometimes to lose weight when there is so much ignorance propagated by the media surrounding weight loss, a lot of it funded by large food corporations, farming interests, and lobbyists. The argument can definitely be made that the intentional or not misinformation campaign surrounding food has a lot to do with the rise in obesity, so I sympathize with the motivation behind HAES. The problem is that a lot of their specific views are just wrong.

So, what do you guys think of these ideas? This topic might be a little US-centric, but I know that there is high obesity rates in other Anglo countries as well.

General rule of thumb is if you adopt a healthy lifestyle, you lose the weight anyway. The problem people have, is once you adopt an unhealthy lifestyle it is difficult to change your habits. Anyone can diet and do exercise during a short time period and lose weight. But once you lose a pound or two you begin to treat yourself or reduce you execise to pre diet levels. And then the weight comes back on. The reality is obesity, like smoking, needs to be tolerated (because it's your own choice), but shouldn't be branded as a healthy lifestyle. Doctors have a duty to be critical of people who are obese because as soon as they aren't, people will think its ok to be obese, when in reality it's unhealthy. It is that simple.

[mikema63]

It's not just that habits are hard to change, your body actively resists weight loss. We evolved in conditions of scarcity so your body reacts to calorie deficits by becoming more efficient (so that the amount of calories that used to maintain your weight now make you gain weight), by making you store fat more readily, by increasing the amount of fat your body prefers to store (since it's now convinced you live through periods of famine), and by adjusting your hormones so that you are literally hungrier for longer.

There is also a lot of genetics at work here, it's simply not a black and white issue where we can definitely say it's the fault of fat people that they are fat. Most people end up obese for the first time as children and once the biochemical changes are in they can't be changed back with our current technology.

[B0ycey]

I am aware of what you write Mike. And you are correct. Your body does get customed to a certain weight and tries to maintain it. And obviously hunger is a hard feeling to resist. Hense why weight loss is difficult. But people do have the mentality to lose weight. Some have lost many many pounds. But if doctors are critical of smoking (and nicotine is addictive), then they have to be critical of obesity as well. No one says weight loss is easy. No one says adopting a healthy lifestyle is easy. But people do have the mentality to beat obesity. And only the weak give up. Because Burgers and fries while watching TV is easier than cycling and a salad for lunch.

[Frollein]

As others have already said, fat is bad, not only for your health, but also for my wallet, as I have to pay the costs you cause with increased health insurance payments (Germany here).

As for fat shaming, I have the right to find you ugly, and we have freedom of opinion and speech. If you can't stand people being repulsed by the sight of your wobbling masses of fat, either lose weight or acquire a thicker skin. It's your lifestyle choice, so live with the consequences, be they medical or social.

[mikema63]

Except with quiting smoking there aren't an endless array of fad remedies that actually make weight loss harder in the long run and there aren't millions off bullshit peddlers putting out incorrect information.

Many diets either don't work at all or create massive calorie deficits, crash diets like that actually cause all of the physiological changes I mentioned to increase. Yet we see nonsense like juice cleanses proliferate.

There is ton's of false information out there too, like your casual mention of cycling. Every study ever done shows that exercise is not an efficient way to lose weight, your body compensates for the calories burned throughout the rest of the day. Salad also isn't a good diet food, it doesn't produce the necessary satiety for sustainable dieting. Even most doctors are unaware of stuff like this because they aren't personal trainers or nutritionists, they are trained troubleshooters for the human body.

Your basically saying that people should go to someone who can't really help them fix their problem and have them tell them it's a problem. Then they can either be poor and not know what to do (and obesity is more common among the poor for a variety of reasons) or spend tons of money to see a nutritionist and hire a personal trainer. Then you have the problem that the licensing for those jobs is so loose you can find nutritionists who think cooking food destroys nutrients and creates "toxins."

Additionally you have the populations most vulnerable to obesity being the poor living in food deserts without access to healthy foods. How is someone living on minimum wage in an area where the nearest supermarket is half an hour away supposed to be expected to not buy a dollar hamburger from McDonalds? How are we supposed to make sure children are healthy when the quality standards for school lunches is literally lower than that of fast food places?

The problem isn't that people are simply making bad choices, our entire food system and society thwarts effective weight loss and fitness at every turn.

Doctors telling you your fat and it's not good for you is all well and good but amounts to no actual changes.

[MistyTiger]

The movement seems like a good idea.

But as someone who has constantly struggled with weight gain and fitness, I think weight loss should be a priority. I know that on my paternal side, obesity can lead to diabetes. Since a young age, I have exercised and ate healthy so I feel that I am not at risk for diabetes or heart problems. When someone is too fat, the poor little heart, which is the size of a fist, has to work much harder to circulate the blood throughout the body and that is definitely not good.

Also, when you lose weight, you feel better about yourself, not to mention you feel more agile and you can move faster without wheezing as much.

And if you want to eat a salad for lunch, avoid salad dressing. The oil in that stuff is baaaad. Or just pour vinegar in the salad. Vinegar is supposed to be good for weight loss.

[B0ycey]

Many diets either don't work at all or create massive calorie deficits, crash diets like that actually cause all of the physiological changes I mentioned to increase. Yet we see nonsense like juice cleanses proliferate.

People want a quick fix. People look for an easy option. There is no easy option to lose weight. The only way to do it is a calorie controlled diet and execise. And once you begin to lose weight, you maintain it. You don't stop. A common mistake by dieters is they lose weight and then go back to an unhealthy lifestyle (which results in weight returning due to what you said earlier)

There is ton's of false information out there too, like your casual mention of cycling. Every study ever done shows that exercise is not an efficient way to lose weight, your body compensates for the calories burned throughout the rest of the day.

Execise burns calories. A controlled diet reduces calorie intake. By your logic you cannot lose weight. There is a UK show called 'I'm a Celebrity', about celebrities in the jungle for three weeks. They eat very little and the most obese celebrities lose many stones in weight. Why? Because they have a controlled diet and need to be active throughout the day. And that is three weeks. Why people struggle to lose weight is because it difficult. You need to be committed to do it. And if you aren't you may as well not bother starting. But a doctor shouldn't just accept this. They need to be very clear of the dangers of obesity. Because if they aren't, how are people going to know they should change their lifestyle?

Salad also isn't a good diet food, it doesn't produce the necessary satiety for sustainable dieting. Even most doctors are unaware of stuff like this because they aren't personal trainers or nutritionists, they are trained troubleshooters for the human body.

Obviously people need more than salads. It was an example I gave, not a diet tick list that people should eat. People need a balanced diet with calorie controls to it.

Your basically saying that people should go to someone who can't really help them fix their problem and have them tell them it's a problem. Then they can either be poor and not know what to do (and obesity is more common among the poor for a variety of reasons) or spend tons of money to see a nutritionist and hire a personal trainer. Then you have the problem that the licensing for those jobs is so loose you can find nutritionists who think cooking food destroys nutrients and creates "toxins."

Additionally you have the populations most vulnerable to obesity being the poor living in food deserts without access to healthy foods. How is someone living on minimum wage in an area where the nearest supermarket is half an hour away supposed to be expected to not buy a dollar hamburger from McDonalds? How are we supposed to make sure children are healthy when the quality standards for school lunches is literally lower than that of fast food places?

The problem isn't that people are simply making bad choices, our entire food system and society thwarts effective weight loss and fitness at every turn.

Doctors telling you your fat and it's not good for you is all well and good but amounts to no actual changes.

I am not a shrinking violet. I don't pander to bullshit. I call a spade a spade. And when it comes to health, I expect doctors to do the same. If you are obese, don't sugar coat anything. Being obese is unhealthy. It is difficult to lose weight. You can either change your life style or not. But if you don't, expect health problems in the future. And the same is true with smoking.

[mikema63]

People want a quick fix.

Sure, and when they don't know any better they may even believe the quick fix is possible.

The only way to do it is a calorie controlled diet and execise. And once you begin to lose weight, you maintain it. You don't stop. A common mistake by dieters is they lose weight and then go back to an unhealthy lifestyle (which results in weight returning due to what you said earlier)

I agree more or less, but the problem I'm putting forward here is that people literally do not know better.

Execise burns calories. A controlled diet reduces calorie intake. By your logic you cannot lose weight. There is a UK show called 'I'm a Celebrity', about celebrities in the jungle for three weeks. They eat very little and the most obese celebrities lose many stones in weight. Why? Because they have a controlled diet and need to be active throughout the day. And that is three weeks. Why people struggle to lose weight is because it difficult. You need to be committed to do it. And if you aren't you may as well not bother starting. But a doctor shouldn't just accept this. They need to be very clear of the dangers of obesity. Because if they aren't, how are people going to know they should change their lifestyle?

1.) I did not say that diet wasn't important in weight loss, in fact I said it was the only part that mattered.

2.) Exercise burns calories yes, but your body is programmed with compensatory behaviors to make you burn less calories in your daily activities after your workout.

3.) No one is saying that doctors should not mention the health risks of obesity, literally no one, certainly not me. I am arguing that there is a swamp of misinformation and problems that make it very hard for people to even know what they are doing.

Obviously people need more than salads. It was an example I gave, not a diet tick list that people should eat. People need a balanced diet with a calorie controls to it.

I'm pointing out the fact that in your ignorance you think salad is a good food option for a dieter when we actually have studies showing that they are counter productive. What I didn't claim was that you were suggesting people only eat salad. This is either a rather amusing misunderstanding on your part, or an intentional misunderstanding of what I said to try to cover for the fact that you yourself are not perfectly informed on the subject of weight loss.

I am not a shreaking violet. I don't pander to bullshit. I call a spade a spade.

Whoopdie doo for you. But I didn't claim otherwise, didn't suggest you pander, and don't care about your prowess in spade identification.

And when it comes to health, I expect doctors to do the same. If you are obese, don't sugar coat anything. Being obese is unhealthy. It is difficult to lose weight. You can either change your life style or not. But if you don't, expect health problems in the future. And the same is true with smoking.

Again, I'm not saying doctors shouldn't point out that you are obese. What I am saying is that very often people do not know what to do, get fooled by bullshit, or are actually prevented from healthy dieting by their circumstances.

A doctor simply telling you your fat is usually not telling you anything you didn't know. It is not a solution to the problem because the problem runs far deeper than personal choices like you want to make out.

There is a lack of effective information, lack of access to healthy foods, and quite frankly far too many people like you who want to ignore all the problems in our society that actually creates obesity and makes it hard if not impossible to fight because you want all the blame to be on the individual.

Telling people "well you should diet, and exercise more" is not a magical solution when people do not have access to healthy food, don't know what calories are, don't know how many they should be eating, don't know what good nutrition is, and don't have the foggiest idea about what an effective exercise or diet plan even looks like.

[B0ycey]

I agree more or less, but the problem I'm putting forward here is that people literally do not know better.

So surely a doctor should inform? How else can they know better.

1.) I did not say that diet wasn't important in weight loss, in fact I said it was the only part that mattered.

2.) Exercise burns calories yes, but your body is programmed with compensatory behaviors to make you burn less calories in your daily activities after your workout.

3.) No one is saying that doctors should not mention the health risks of obesity, literally no one, certainly not me. I am arguing that there is a swamp of misinformation and problems that make it very hard for people to even know what they are doing.

Fine. And all you write here is true and this is how I see things too.

I'm pointing out the fact that in your ignorance you think salad is a good food option for a dieter when we actually have studies showing that they are counter productive. What I didn't claim was that you were suggesting people only eat salad. This is either a rather amusing misunderstanding on your part, or an intentional misunderstanding of what I said to try to cover for the fact that you yourself are not perfectly informed on the subject of weight loss.

A salad is good in a balanced diet. Not on its own. If you agree with that statement then we agree. Otherwise we don't.

Again, I'm not saying doctors shouldn't point out that you are obese. What I am saying is that very often people do not know what to do, get fooled by bullshit, or are actually prevented from healthy dieting by their circumstances.

Fine. Again I agree.

A doctor simply telling you your fat is usually not telling you anything you didn't know. It is not a solution to the problem because the problem runs far deeper than personal choices like you want to make out.

Perhaps. But sometimes someone needs to be frank with you before you take action. A doctor has an influence beyond even family and friends. They have the education and experience to give you the facts as they are. And if you are given the facts and want to take a different road, the strong minded will remain on the path of change. And the weak will give up. And that might seem cruel or unjust, but in my experience that is how things are. Pandering to someone doesn't do anyone any good.

There is a lack of effective information, lack of access to healthy foods, and quite frankly far too many people like you who want to ignore all the problems in our society that actually creates obesity and makes it hard if not impossible to fight because you want all the blame to be on the individual.

I understand that there is a lack of information out there. And I know curcumstances can be against you for being overweight. But nobody is born obese. At some point you gain weight and you notice. And if you get to a point where you get obese, whose fault is it if its not yours? Sure there could be a number of reasons for not taking action. But ultimately it is the easy option to blame something other than yourself for your weight. And it is up to you to lose it. Nobody can do it for you.

Telling people "well you should diet, and exercise more" is not a magical solution when people do not have access to healthy food, don't know what calories are, don't know how many they should be eating, don't know what good nutrition is, and don't have the foggiest idea about what an effective exercise or diet plan even looks like.

If a doctor tells you that you are overweight, they need to give you all the facts and where to find help if you decide to do something about it. Otherwise, you are correct. I never said you should do dieting on your own.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Proponents view the common wisdom that obesity is unhealthy as part of a general stigmatization of the obese, and especially of obese women.

Here we go. Let's normalise more health conditions under the guise of the fight against stigmatisation. It always helps to throw some identity politics into the mix.

As for losing weight, technically, if you reduce food intake sufficiently you'll of course lose weight. Similarly, anorexics will put on weight if they eat a sufficient amount of food. People in both categories will tend to not manage or refuse to do so. I guess we are a bit more understanding of anorexics because they are considered to have a psychiatric disorder/disturbance in their body image.

[Suntzu]

The single most important thing we could do to improve American health and cut the cost of medical care is to reduce obesity rate. Interestingly, our poor are the fattest segment of society.

[AFAIK]

I think the link between size and fitness is pretty weak. Fitness is a result of how much exercise you get whilst size is a result of calorie intake. Until you reach a size where it's difficult to move you can easily put in time to get fit. Shaming is just another word for bullying and shouldn't be tolerated. It's also counter productive since no one wants to go for a jog in the park if people are going to give you shit just for being there.

Policies I'd promote;

-Building cities around public transport, walking and cycling so exercise is part of people's daily routines.
-A ban on all car dependent developments including housing and out-of-town retail and entertainment centers.
-Traffic light labels to warn people of the fat, sugar, protein and calorie contents of packaged foods and restaurant dishes
-Plain packaging for foods with excessive amounts of fat, sugar, etc.
-Healthy school meals
-Cooking and nutrition classes in all schools
-State sponsored healthy eating campaigns
-A 'fat tax' on unhealthy foods

Policies I don't support;

-Attempts to shift the burden onto individuals
-Attempts to deny people medical treatment for 'lifestyle choices'
-Negative reinforcement

[Godstud]

This can be deceptive. I know a guy with a nice big potbelly, yet he rides his bicycle hundreds of miles a day.

If you were to look at him, you'd call him a fat fuck, who doesn't take care of himself, and is out of shape.

People CAN be fit and be overweight. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I agree with AFAIK's ideas, regarding obesity. Negative reinforcement doesn't work very often, and often only leads to poor self-image, which exacerbates the problem.

[snapdragon]

It's true people want a quick fix, but it's also true to you need to fool your body into believing you aren't losing weight to have any chance of keeping it off.
The ideal amount to lose is an average of 1/2 pound a week. That's what I've been trying to do since Christmas as I need to stay slim, as excess fat sits around my middle and type 2 Diabetes runs in my family.

I've lost about four pounds, which is fine. I don't really need to lose any more, so I can afford to have the odd slice of cake now and then, which is good news for me, as it's Mothering Sunday and there will be cake later on.

Losing such a small amount involves a lot of faffing about with portion sizes at first, but you get used to it and at least you don't starve and it doesn't involve much self denial.

It might not sound much, but this time next year any fatties here could be two stone lighter, and moreover, will have a good chance of keeping it off.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

General rule of thumb is if you adopt a healthy lifestyle, you lose the weight anyway. The problem people have, is once you adopt an unhealthy lifestyle it is difficult to change your habits. Anyone can diet and do exercise during a short time period and lose weight. But once you lose a pound or two you begin to treat yourself or reduce you execise to pre diet levels. And then the weight comes back on.

I have heard this argument before, but one could argue that it's hard to go back once you have learned about food. I mean you can still eat all the junk you like to eat and lose weight, just not in the proportion that you used to. And as far as exercise reduction, I believe that this too is a myth, in a sense. Exercise will help you in terms of physical appearance absent of weight loss because you're building muscle, strengthening your core, building better posture/balance. However, weight loss can happen perfectly well just by eating a calorie deficit.

Calories are energy. If you take in less energy than you lose, your body will lose weight no matter what.

It's true people want a quick fix, but it's also true to you need to fool your body into believing you aren't losing weight to have any chance of keeping it off.
The ideal amount to lose is an average of 1/2 pound a week. That's what I've been trying to do since Christmas as I need to stay slim, as excess fat sits around my middle and type 2 Diabetes runs in my family.

I've lost about four pounds, which is fine. I don't really need to lose any more, so I can afford to have the odd slice of cake now and then, which is good news for me, as it's Mothering Sunday and there will be cake later on.

Losing such a small amount involves a lot of faffing about with portion sizes at first, but you get used to it and at least you don't starve and it doesn't involve much self denial.

It might not sound much, but this time next year any fatties here could be two stone lighter, and moreover, will have a good chance of keeping it off.

Not to nitpick here, but I believe that you can lose up to two pounds a week in a healthy manner. And according to the CDC this is true. To put that in perspective, my BMR is ~1800 calories, which means I would have to eat a 1200 calorie deficit to lose about 2 pounds a week. Those are approximate numbers because I exercise quite a bit on the one hand and also have a cheat day every week. I tend to stick to my goal most other days of the week.

It's natural for anyone trying to lose weight to want to lose it very quickly. But evidence shows that people who lose weight gradually and steadily (about 1 to 2 pounds per week) are more successful at keeping weight off. Healthy weight loss isn't just about a "diet" or "program". It's about an ongoing lifestyle that includes long-term changes in daily eating and exercise habits.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/losing_weight/

[Suntzu]

The poor are often poor because they make poor financial choices. Look at welfare slugs with the latest smart phone, $200 shoes, etc. Yet we give 'em a blank check for food. Allow them to buy only nutritious foods, no soda, chips and only a limited amount meat and fatty food.

Charge folks who are not fat dramatically lower insurance premiums. Give the skinny folks the prize parking spots. Make fat folks park at the far edge of parking lots. Stop calling fat women "plus size". Charge fat people for two airline seats.