College degrees are increasingly useless - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#14795681
Suntzu wrote:Colleges are supposed to educate folks not teach 'em a trade.

STEM is basically an advanced trade school.

The liberal arts, sometimes called the humanities, formerly known as a classical education, are indeed less about training for a livelihood and more about practicing an expensive hobby as a status symbol for those so wealthy that they need not study anything useful.
#14795696
SolarCross wrote:The liberal arts, sometimes called the humanities, formerly known as a classical education, are indeed less about training for a livelihood and more about practicing an expensive hobby as a status symbol for those so wealthy that they need not study anything useful.


And yet, they seem to be practical to employers who overwhelmingly take someone with a college degree instead of someone without.

But the reasons are as listed previously in the thread. It helps people sort through, understand, and communicate with facts and information effectively.

I agree that it can be used as a, "status symbol," which is why I think that it should be busted open and made universal and free (though, of course, as the students are adults, still optional).

STEM is also important for obvious reasons.

In defence of humanities, and history in particular, I think it's worth going further. What the fuck are we, collectively, doing here?

I'm not asking a question about the meaning of life, but somewhere, a long time ago, someone decided to bury a dead relative or friend. And then put a memorial up so that they could remember.

And then people began to record what was happening in crude ways without the view of history. A picture of a great hunt, slashes on a wall to indicate how much of something there were.

Around fires, elders told their children not to forget; to always remember the story of such and such.

But we have no idea who those people are and can only speculate.

Once the Mesopotamians put both together, and started to record these stories so we could remember, the entire notion of building a place in our world; of contextualizing events; of understanding what was going on—a historiography started.

And that is still how we judge ourselves.

I like to think of us in this context. If you want to strive to be an animal, limiting itself to farting and shitting, and eating until it dies and is never aware of what has occurred, I cannot stop you.

But I think most of us think of ourselves and a context in history. Even if we don't understand it, we know that we can pick up a book about the Phoenicians. That we can look to current events, like the Deep State, and understand them historically.

We can do it, because there is still a tradition of the people at the campfire asking you not to forget, to know. Even if you ignore it, it's still worthwhile and you still end up using it.
#14795802
jimjam wrote:it's not what it used to be. In 1971 I took my thin resume with no experience on it and a 4 year degree in "business administration" to an "employment agency".

On my first try I got an interview and subsequent job at an international drug company. within 2 months I was flying literally around the world visiting their manufacturing branches.

today? I hear horror stories like,"i sent out 97 resumes on the internet and got, maybe, one job related response." To make the horrer worse there are frequently tens of thousands of dollars of debt. I owed $218 upon graduation from a 4 year program.

If I were starting over I would be a plumber and purchase rental properties.


Lots of that is due to the internet. You, in 1971, were competing with your neighbors, (metaphorically) for the most part. Today, our graduates are competing with everyone else in the world, as the Internet has tied us all together information-wise. The only stuff that can't be outsourced is local-labor stuff like plumbing, as you said, lawn-mowing, service related stuff. It is a lot harder today.
#14795842
The Immortal Goon wrote:Just run it like any other public education institution. It's not a contradiction that middle schoolers don't pay their teachers and yet the teachers somehow get money. We decided that we didn't want everybody living in ignorance.

This didn't work in Ireland. The basic reason is that those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds were still less able, academically speaking, when it came to accessing third-level education. If you want to help get a broader segment of the population into education it's more efficient to fund educational programs earlier in their lives and prepare them for the jump to third-level, than grant them free access to what's only a hypothetical college education.

Even under glorious proletarian democracy this is going to be true.
#14797733
A college degree to an interviewer is useful to show that an applicant can successfully complete a task. Completing tasks is always important to an employer. Then depending on the quality of the college and the previous skills of the applicant, that determines whether or not someone will be considered for a job.

That being said, if the government steps in and basically makes a government run college diploma worth little or nothing more than a high school diploma where some high schools just push kids thru the education system without the kids truly being educated...believe me...prospective employers will realize all that very quickly.

In my opinion what will happen if Hillary/Bernie type community colleges are made free, it will do little to help students get the type of jobs that they aspire, and the only jobs they will get offered are the same ones offered now when having just a high school diploma. The only difference in society will be liberal government growing bigger, taxpayers becoming poorer, and college professors and administrators becoming richer.
#14797899
Decky wrote:Education is not about getting a job it is about learning shit.


Go ahead and take a college diploma to the bank and see if they give you a loan on it. Go to the grocery store and show them a college diploma and see if they give you groceries.

Unless a person is already rich, such as a sports player who after their career is over goes back and finishes college just for "learning shit", everyone else goes to college for the money from future job or self-employment career opportunities.
#14797901
Only in the United States where intelligence is looked down upon and everyone thinks god created the world last week. In the developed world education for the sake of knowledge is considered a very good thing.
#14797904
stephen50right wrote:The only difference in society will be liberal government growing bigger, taxpayers becoming poorer, and college professors and administrators becoming richer.


As it is, about 80% of American college professors make less than minimum wage from their jobs.

You're right, we wouldn't want them to get "richer," and get minimum wage!

One may reasonably ask, "If students are paying more tuition than ever before, and faculty is getting paid less than ever before, where does the money go?"

You may be stunned to learn—the boss!

InsideHigherEd wrote:Public four-year colleges are using the savings in instructional costs from relying on adjuncts to increase spending on other areas -- namely maintenance, administrative and student-services staff. Most of this spending is in recruiting, admissions, counseling, student organizations and athletics.


So we have a funding system where students take government funds, but are compelled to do so via private companies that don't provide any funds or services, but are quick to do everything possible to make sure the student can't pay back and gets interest; and the universities—now more privatized than ever—jack up tuition as high as possible, get the cheapest possible employees, and pocket the rest of the money.

A system where banks and businessmen willing to force the public trough into their bottomless stomachs are making no risks and getting almost all the money. Should it be any surprise that right-wingers are saying that we shouldn't change this system?
#14797911
The Immortal Goon wrote:As it is, about 80% of American college professors make less than minimum wage from their jobs.

You're right, we wouldn't want them to get "richer," and get minimum wage!

One may reasonably ask, "If students are paying more tuition than ever before, and faculty is getting paid less than ever before, where does the money go?"

You may be stunned to learn—the boss!



So we have a funding system where students take government funds, but are compelled to do so via private companies that don't provide any funds or services, but are quick to do everything possible to make sure the student can't pay back and gets interest; and the universities—now more privatized than ever—jack up tuition as high as possible, get the cheapest possible employees, and pocket the rest of the money.

A system where banks and businessmen willing to force the public trough into their bottomless stomachs are making no risks and getting almost all the money. Should it be any surprise that right-wingers are saying that we shouldn't change this system?


http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... ion/Salary

Professor, Postsecondary / Higher Education Salary
Over three-fourths of Professors in the United States have been in the field for more than 10 years. Pay can fall anywhere from $49K to $152K per year, but median earnings come to around $85K annually. While geography and experience level impact pay for this group, the specific employer is the most influential factor. Work is enjoyable for Professors, who typically claim high levels of job satisfaction. Medical benefits are awarded to nearly all, and a strong majority earn dental coverage. Men working as Professors who took the survey just slightly outnumber women at 58 percent. The data for this snapshot was collected from individuals who took PayScale's salary survey.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

<<< As it is, about 80% of American college professors make less than minimum wage from their jobs. >>>

Well then they would have to be volunteers because paying less than minimum wage is illegal.

BTW: The above link, from what I see, the pay scale didn't include the value of the deluxe health care plans they receive as well as the ultra-fat bloated retirement benefits.
#14797915
stephen50right wrote:Professor, Postsecondary / Higher Education Salary
Over three-fourths of Professors in the United States have been in the field for more than 10 years. Pay can fall anywhere from $49K to $152K per year, but median earnings come to around $85K annually. While geography and experience level impact pay for this group, the specific employer is the most influential factor. Work is enjoyable for Professors, who typically claim high levels of job satisfaction. Medical benefits are awarded to nearly all, and a strong majority earn dental coverage. Men working as Professors who took the survey just slightly outnumber women at 58 percent. The data for this snapshot was collected from individuals who took PayScale's salary survey.


Wow!

But posting information about the 20% of professors that aren't adjuncts, you accomplished writing something down!

I cited sources, you can always look them up.

Well then they would have to be volunteers because paying less than minimum wage is illegal.

BTW: The above link, from what I see, the pay scale didn't include the value of the deluxe health care plans they receive as well as the ultra-fat bloated retirement benefits.


1. Adjuncts are almost never allowed full time, and thus are treated as a, "gig economy," framework. Yearly, as the source mentions, it is less than its equal in minimum wage.

2. You don't provide health plans or retirement bennies to part-time workers.

More interesting, are you now in favor of deluxe health plans and ultra-fat bloated retirement benefits?
#14797930
The Immortal Goon wrote:Wow!

But posting information about the 20% of professors that aren't adjuncts, you accomplished writing something down!

I cited sources, you can always look them up.



1. Adjuncts are almost never allowed full time, and thus are treated as a, "gig economy," framework. Yearly, as the source mentions, it is less than its equal in minimum wage.

2. You don't provide health plans or retirement bennies to part-time workers.

More interesting, are you now in favor of deluxe health plans and ultra-fat bloated retirement benefits?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/part ... KO0,27.htm

Sure seems like these adjunct professors are making a lot more than minimum wage.

My former accountant worked as an adjunct professor. He never told me his salary and I didn't ask, but he did tell me that he enjoyed teaching the class once a week, and used it as a recruitment tool for his accounting firm.
#14797943
Stephen50right wrote:Sure seems like these adjunct professors are making a lot more than minimum wage


TIG wrote:Yearly, as the source mentions...


Stephen50right wrote:My former accountant worked as an adjunct professor.


Your anecdotal evidence about a professor that also has at least one more job as your accountant, but does the professoring because he likes being in class, doesn't exactly prove your point.
#14797946
Applying to jobs via the internet is largely a waste. Or rather, you should not spend all your time only sending out resume's online.

At least in my industry, you can actually find networking events hosted at various bars/pubs. It's a good idea to go to those and talk yourself up to recruiters.

All that said. 3 of my last 4 engineering jobs has come from sending in a cold resume. :lol: I've beat the odds drastically apparently.
#14797947
Suntzu wrote:On average, a person with a four year college degree will make a million dollars more in his lifetime than someone with only a high school diploma.


Assuming of course that the degree is in a useful field. I know people with history or archaeology degrees who cannot find meaningful or high-paying jobs.
#14797952
The Immortal Goon wrote:Your anecdotal evidence about a professor that also has at least one more job as your accountant, but does the professoring because he likes being in class, doesn't exactly prove your point.


Of course it proves my point. If he finds just one student to windup working for his accounting firm who turns out to be a valuable employee, that would be worth a lot of money to the firm.

Therefore even if he was paid less than minimum wage for the teaching job, or even no salary at all, still there is vastly more monetary potential to him and his firm in the recruitment process than just a professor's salary.

So one way or the other, college professors are making a lot of money for what they do...way too much in my view considering all the facts.
#14797969
Steven50right wrote:Of course it proves my point. If he finds just one student to windup working for his accounting firm who turns out to be a valuable employee, that would be worth a lot of money to the firm.

Therefore even if he was paid less than minimum wage for the teaching job, or even no salary at all, still there is vastly more monetary potential to him and his firm in the recruitment process than just a professor's salary.

So one way or the other, college professors are making a lot of money for what they do...way too much in my view considering all the facts.


Assuming that the, "facts," are that colleges are unemployment agencies, professors are small business owners, and students should be less focused on information and focus on shilling jobs.

I must admit, I'm always a little impressed with how easily right-wingers can transition into a magical fairy land where actual reality doesn't matter.

Let me try:

Of course being proven wrong only proves my point. If a professor finds just one student to windup seizing the means of production who turns out to be a valuable revolutionary leader, that would be worth a lot of power to the Soviets.

Therefore even if the professor was paid a billion dollars an hour to do the teaching job, or even was president of the United States, still there is vastly more glorious potential to him and his band of revolutionaries in the recruitment process than just a professor's salary.

So one way or the other, college professors are proving that communism is inevitable...it makes way too much sense my view considering all the facts.


Oh, to be a right-winger and not have to worry about pesky reality...

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